WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I stumbled across a BR debate which got nasty in a hurry. But after watching a few games, they actually seem rather close. Both players have tremendous arm strength and good mobility. Both tend to hang around and try to throw instead of running for the 1st down, even when they probably should. Both are throwing to a veteran receiver and a draft pick from last year who has underperformed. Both have very good run games to help them. So why is one statistically so much better than the other? Interestingly, they both have been prone to underthrowing their receivers on fly routes and throwing behind their receivers. That's how the Pats got all of their interceptions last week. However, when EJ has done it so far he's either lucked out, thrown it out of bounds or had his receiver fight it away from the DB. Also, with the exception of staring down TJ last week, EJ has made very few "what were you thinking" moments. He's had bad throws, but made few cases where he's thrown into double coverage. The same can't be said of Geno I think you also have to look at the O-lines. While Colin Brown is seriously getting beat down every game, the Bills have still surrendered only one sack in to weeks even after facing "one of the best front seven" in Carolina. The same Pats defense which rarely laid a hand on EJ nailed Geno for a sack four times. The Pats defense is good, but it's not that good and neither is our O-line. If the Bills could constantly harass Geno and limit the Panthers run game, I think it bodes well for this matchup. Also...the OC's. I know Hackett was our whipping boy week 1, but he's decisions have kept EJ out trouble for the most part. He seems to be gradually opening the playbook to EJ and seeing what he can handle in a gameday scenario and he put together a great set of plays on the winning drive. In comparison Ol' Marty has gotten heat for abandoning the run when it was working and made a struggling Geno throw more and more. They might have a very similar talent, but EJ is a bit more composed, and has a better support system. At least so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I stumbled across a BR debate which got nasty in a hurry. But after watching a few games, they actually seem rather close. Both players have tremendous arm strength and good mobility. Both tend to hang around and try to throw instead of running for the 1st down, even when they probably should. Both a throwing to a veteran receiver and a draft pick from last year who has underperformed. Both have very good run games to help them. So why is one statistically so much better than the other? Interestingly, they both have been prone to underthrowing their receivers on fly routes and throwing behind their receivers. That's how the Pats got all of their interceptions last week. However, when EJ has done it so far he's either lucked out, thrown it out of bounds or had his receiver fight it away from the DB. Also, with the exception of staring down TJ last week, EJ has made very few "what were you thinking" moments. He's had bad throws, but made few cases where he's thrown into double coverage. I think you also have to look at the O-lines. While Colin Brown is seriously getting beat down every game, the Bills have still surrendered only one sack in to weeks even after facing "one of the best front seven" in Carolina. The same Pats defense which rarely laid a hand on EJ nailed Geno for a sack four times. The Pats defense is good, but it's not that good and neither is our O-line. If the Bills could constantly harass Geno and limit the Panthers run game, I think it bodes well for this matchup. Also...the OC's. I know Hackett was our whipping boy week 1, but he's decisions have kept EJ out trouble for the most part. He seems to be gradually opening the playbook to EJ and seeing what he can handle in a gameday scenario and he put together a great set of plays on the winning drive. In comparison Ol' Marty has gotten heat for abandoning the run when it was working and made a struggling Geno throw more and more. They might have a very similar talent, but EJ is a bit more composed, and has a better support system. At least so far. And both have had come-back victories to boot in the first two weeks of the season. And both have been pretty lucky...Both comebacks fall short if the TB guy does not make a bone headed play or if Kueckly does not PI with Stevie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 OP: well said! I would only add that I have been impressed with both guys. Both had some rough spots in game 2, but my sense is that both of these guys are going to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Huh? Smith Basically looks for his first read, if he isn't open he panics, starts running for no reason, and more often than not runs into the pressure. I wasn't impressed at all against New England, in fact he looked God Awful. His 55 QB rating isn't for no reason, its well deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 And both have had come-back victories to boot in the first two weeks of the season. And both have been pretty lucky...Both comebacks fall short if the TB guy does not make a bone headed play or if Kueckly does not PI with Stevie. That is true, but I left that comparison off the list because while both got lucky with penalties, they're different kinds of luck. If Stevie doesn't get held, he's in position to catch that ball, giving the Bills about one shot to get into the end zone after the play. Geno gets hits a second earlier, the Jets don't get fifteen yards. Also, you have to take into account how Geno does in his failed comeback week two. When the pressure is on him, and the Jets are repeatedly in position to go ahead, or at the very least tie the game he throws the big interception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf Sandwich Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 And both have had come-back victories to boot in the first two weeks of the season. And both have been pretty lucky...Both comebacks fall short if the TB guy does not make a bone headed play or if Kueckly does not PI with Stevie. EJs wasn't really lucky since they planned it out like that. Geno was the lucky one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 Huh? Smith Basically looks for his first read, if he isn't open he panics, starts running for no reason, and more often than not runs into the pressure. I wasn't impressed at all against New England, in fact he looked God Awful. His 55 QB rating isn't for no reason, its well deserved. You could argue that EJ does the same at times (like the TJ throw). The difference is that usually even if he's off, he throws to places where his receiver can at least fight for it, or be the only one in position to make the play. I remember one Geno INT that was just hideously underthrown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 You could argue that EJ does the same at times (like the TJ throw). The difference is that usually even if he's off, he throws to places where his receiver can at least fight for it, or be the only one in position to make the play. I remember one Geno INT that was just hideously underthrown. You could but you'd be wrong. That throw to Robert Woods for a TD against NE was a direct result of him looking off the safety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 You could but you'd be wrong. That throw to Robert Woods for a TD against NE was a direct result of him looking off the safety I think you're missing the point of "at times" I LIKE the choice the Bills made. I'm happy they took Manuel over Geno. I think he's a bit more talented, has a better attitude and charisma but owes a great deal to the coaches not trying to rush him while he works out rookie mistakes. The difference is that the Jets have momnts of throwing their QB's to the wolves, as people accused them of doing to Sanchez last year. They push too much, let them get pounded and the fans scream for the backup when things don't go perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 You could argue that EJ does the same at times (like the TJ throw). The difference is that usually even if he's off, he throws to places where his receiver can at least fight for it, or be the only one in position to make the play. I remember one Geno INT that was just hideously underthrown. I don't understand how anyone can extrapolate on how Geno Smith is going to be based on the patriots game. Yeah, he had a bad game. He also had a good first game against a team with probably the best secondary in the league. The reality is that he is a rookie, and, like EJ, both are going to have some good games, some great games, and some awful games. If EJ doesn't have a 3-pick game at some point this season, I will shocked. Andrew Luck has three 3-interception games last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I think you're missing the point of "at times" I LIKE the choice the Bills made. I'm happy they took Manuel over Geno. I think he's a bit more talented, has a better attitude and charisma but owes a great deal to the coaches not trying to rush him while he works out rookie mistakes. The difference is that the Jets have momnts of throwing their QB's to the wolves, as people accused them of doing to Sanchez last year. They push too much, let them get pounded and the fans scream for the backup when things don't go perfectly. Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance...I doubt you'll ever hear EJ give a soundbyte like Geno did prior to the TB game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Huh? Smith Basically looks for his first read, if he isn't open he panics, starts running for no reason, and more often than not runs into the pressure. I wasn't impressed at all against New England, in fact he looked God Awful. His 55 QB rating isn't for no reason, its well deserved. When I watched that game (NE-Jets) it seemed like Geno's OC kind of hung him out there to dry a ferw times. Run the ball - it was working and you have a rookie QB in a national night game in Foxboro. Why have him throw every down to average (at best )WRs. I thought he threw some really nice passes downfield. I also saw him make a few decent runs. I am not a Geno fan by any means - mainly because his personality has rubbed me the wrong way ever since the draft. But I think he certainly has talent and hope he doesn't take advantage of our substitute secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Huh? Smith Basically looks for his first read, if he isn't open he panics, starts running for no reason, and more often than not runs into the pressure. I wasn't impressed at all against New England, in fact he looked God Awful. His 55 QB rating isn't for no reason, its well deserved. Agreed. Smith is very talented so he has mader some plays. In fact a few throws I've seen from him has me saying "wow". But then just as quickly he takes a bone head sack or throws across his body. Those things can be corrected for sure with proper coaching, but thus far EJ has looked much more composed (not that it means much see Edwards, Trentative.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance...I doubt you'll ever hear EJ give a soundbyte like Geno did prior to the TB game... Geno is not as polished as a "face of the franchise." He is definitely raw. Plus his coach is Rex Ryan, and his antics rub off on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I don't understand how anyone can extrapolate on how Geno Smith is going to be based on the patriots game. Yeah, he had a bad game. He also had a good first game against a team with probably the best secondary in the league. The reality is that he is a rookie, and, like EJ, both are going to have some good games, some great games, and some awful games. If EJ doesn't have a 3-pick game at some point this season, I will shocked. Andrew Luck has three 3-interception games last year. Maybe on paper TB does, but Revis is a man corner, not a zone corner like they are using him now. Two totally different skill sets, and one he may not be suited for, which may explain why he is so frustrated two games into the season already. Luck SHOULD be a lot better than he is. I'm sorry but for someone who is supposed to be the next coming of Peyton Manning, you shouldn't look like some dude off the street for the majority of the game and then have one great drive at the end to win it. Wilson, Tannehill and RGIII all looked better than him much of the time. He also didn't have a great game against an atrocious Bills D and probably should have lost that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Maybe on paper TB does, but Revis is a man corner, not a zone corner like they are using him now. Two totally different skill sets, and one he may not be suited for, which may explain why he is so frustrated two games into the season already. Luck SHOULD be a lot better than he is. I'm sorry but for someone who is supposed to be the next coming of Peyton Manning, you shouldn't look like some dude off the street for the majority of the game and then have one great drive at the end to win it. Wilson, Tannehill and RGIII all looked better than him much of the time. He also didn't have a great game against an atrocious Bills D and probably should have lost that game. I have seen Luck play in person twice... dude is NOT average. He is an all-out stud who makes things out of nothing. His OL is very limited and has has NO running game. He is a very intelligent and gifted QB, and while Manning is the gold standard I do think he has a chance to be as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 I don't understand how anyone can extrapolate on how Geno Smith is going to be based on the patriots game. Yeah, he had a bad game. He also had a good first game against a team with probably the best secondary in the league. The reality is that he is a rookie, and, like EJ, both are going to have some good games, some great games, and some awful games. If EJ doesn't have a 3-pick game at some point this season, I will shocked. Andrew Luck has three 3-interception games last year. Fair point, EJ probably will have a bad game and take his lumps. But I do think that you can extrapolate a little on how two QB's have done against the same defense. I also think the difference is that EJ is getting more help from his receivers, O-line and most importantly his OC, who is helping him with the transition. These are good indicators in helping a QB develop, as opposed to getting pounded for 9 sacks in two games, and abandoning the run when its working to put pressure on the rookie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I have seen Luck play in person twice... dude is NOT average. He is an all-out stud who makes things out of nothing. His OL is very limited and has has NO running game. He is a very intelligent and gifted QB, and while Manning is the gold standard I do think he has a chance to be as good. I saw him against the Bills and wasn't overly impressed. Wasn't impressed with his 55% completion percentage or 76 QB rating last year either. And yeah those 7 game winning drives are nice but he is part of the reason they are in that position of being behind to begin with. Those are also unsustainable over a long period of time, which is why I think the Colts finish 8-8 this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 I have seen Luck play in person twice... dude is NOT average. He is an all-out stud who makes things out of nothing. His OL is very limited and has has NO running game. He is a very intelligent and gifted QB, and while Manning is the gold standard I do think he has a chance to be as good. Not anymore. I also agree that Geno has been left out to dry. Of course, the Jets have been taunting about how they're coming for EJ. I want to see the Jets keep throwing Geno into Mario all game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 (edited) Not anymore. I also agree that Geno has been left out to dry. Of course, the Jets have been taunting about how they're coming for EJ. I want to see the Jets keep throwing Geno into Mario all game Wouldn't go that far, Richardson is averaging 3.5 YPC for his career and is a liability in pass protection. Vick Ballard was pretty good last year... Edited September 19, 2013 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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