brucethomas34 Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 It's stupid. On a punt, a hold won't prevent a first down. Its a hold because it hasn't been punted yet which means it could still be a pass play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 It's strange how this seems to be split so evenly, with almost everyone extremely convinced that they are right. I saw it as a clear cut hold. With that being said, he was also initially held on the play, but Summers' hold was much more obvious to the officials, so I don't blame for the call they made. As for those who are complaining about the call in relation to the game circumstances, when I used to referee (hockey) we were trained that a penalty is a penalty and that situation / circumstances shouldn't make a difference. For everyone who is complaining about the number of calls against us vs. those against opponents - there is not some agenda by the NFL or officials' union. We are sloppy, and will continue to get penalized until we stop committing penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladiebla Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Its a hold because it hasn't been punted yet which means it could still be a pass play. It's strange how this seems to be split so evenly, with almost everyone extremely convinced that they are right. I saw it as a clear cut hold. With that being said, he was also initially held on the play, but Summers' hold was much more obvious to the officials, so I don't blame for the call they made. As for those who are complaining about the call in relation to the game circumstances, when I used to referee (hockey) we were trained that a penalty is a penalty and that situation / circumstances shouldn't make a difference. For everyone who is complaining about the number of calls against us vs. those against opponents - there is not some agenda by the NFL or officials' union. We are sloppy, and will continue to get penalized until we stop committing penalties. Yet the ref doesn't even start throwing the flag well after the ball was punted (see screenshots for ref starting to reach and actually throwing it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Yet the ref doesn't even start throwing the flag well after the ball was punted (see screenshots for ref starting to reach and actually throwing it). The ref is allowed time to react. The hold happened clearly before the punt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralonzo Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 My question on the replay of that holding call was, it looked like their guy from the interior of the line was pretty well past LOS when he was getting bulldogged. If the hold was before the punt, then wouldn't he have been illegally downfield before the punt as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 I understand it's a "penalty" and regardless if the timing is quesitonable, I'm firmly of the belief that the ref should know better and eat his !@#$ing whistle on that play. If it was 4th and less than 10, call it all day. 4th and 11-15, think about it first. But 4th and 18!? When the penalty otherwise had ZERO bearing on the play, that's a call that let's a team off the hook way too much, and a referee should know better than to insert himself into the game. There's the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law. And the !@#$ing referee should no better. In a nutshell, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I hated the fact they give a first down on this, until I read this ^^^^^ Not even thinking of a fake, now it's not such a bad call. Though not sure it was before kick. Still a boneheaded play! Even if it was a fake, the holdee was not an eligible receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 (edited) Even if it was a fake, the holdee was not an eligible receiver. What about a blocked kick? Getting set up to have to make a tackle on the returner, etc... The rule is a good rule... Or you would see open season on pre-kick holding. Rip and hold the guy long enough so the returner gets an advantage... More yardage. Again, good rule. Edited September 17, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 What about a blocked kick? Getting set up to have to make a tackle on the returner, etc... The rule is a good rule... Or you would see open season on pre-kick holding. Rip and hold the guy long enough so the returner gets an advantage... More yardage. Again, good rule. I'm not saying it's a bad rule. I'm saying that in this case, the punishment didn't fit the crime. 4th and 18 and it's two guys giving and taking physical liberties with each other in an inconsequential play away from the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 I think the rule is that if the hold occurs before the ball is kicked, it's like defensive holding on a pass-- 5 yards and automatic 1st down. If it happens after the kick, the the receiving team keeps the ball and its just assessed after change of possession (like a hold occurring during a return). Yes, that is correct. Before the kick, its considered the same as a defensive holding penalty at any other time...5 yards and an automatic first down. After the kick, its considered change of possession and a hold would be an offensive holding call, penalized 10 yards. I'm not saying it's a bad rule. I'm saying that in this case, the punishment didn't fit the crime. 4th and 18 and it's two guys giving and taking physical liberties with each other in an inconsequential play away from the ball. Its really an inexcusable penalty. He held the dude, pulled him down by his helmet and then pulled his helmet off. WTF was he thinking? Just a braindead penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 In a nutshell, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Even if it was a fake, the holdee was not an eligible receiver. That's putting it lightly. It was a game changing call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Its really an inexcusable penalty. He held the dude, pulled him down by his helmet and then pulled his helmet off. WTF was he thinking? Just a braindead penalty. Well that's true too. It was boneheaded. But the little player skirmish they had going had no bearing on the play at all. That's why I think the punishment didn't fit the crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Looked like it came after the kick though. Whatever. It was a lousy call to set THEM up for a TD, and we got one back with the PI. set them up for the TD? 71 yards away? I'm not saying it's a bad rule. I'm saying that in this case, the punishment didn't fit the crime. 4th and 18 and it's two guys giving and taking physical liberties with each other in an inconsequential play away from the ball. Exactly where the art of great refereeing comes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Exactly where the art of great refereeing comes in. Excellent point. I think a non-call would have been a better decision by the official although I understand how some might disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 I'm not saying it's a bad rule. I'm saying that in this case, the punishment didn't fit the crime. 4th and 18 and it's two guys giving and taking physical liberties with each other in an inconsequential play away from the ball. So true...Just makes no sense...The penalty of an automatic 1st down in that situation is ridiculous...If the yardage were to result in a 1st down so be it...But this automatic, on a change of possession play, is a stupid rule... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Just before the ball is punted, notice Summers himself was being held: Right after the punt (left circle is ball leaving), see middle circle for Summers being pushed same as right hand circle the same for opposing player (they both end up on the ground after that), see circle on Summers his left hand, he may have been holding or pushing the guy down there hard to see: Summers pushing through with hand on the guys helmet which is loose apparently and comes off, notice that the ref is not making any actions towards throwing the flag and the ball is long gone by that time. Summers clearly being held while he has no contact going himself anymore, NOTICE THE REF REACHING FOR HIS FLAG in reaction to that: Flag is thrown and in the air, the throwing of the flag is a direct progression from the motion started by the ref when Summers was pulled down (you see Summers tumbling forwards here as a result of that pull): As far as I can see it, defensive holding after the ball was snapped could have been called (for pushing/pulling off the helmet) with the correct call being offsetting holding penalties but the holding prior to the ball being kicked call was plain wrong. Now the question becomes is "at what point did the hold occur" a challengable call?IE, could we have challenged that the hold didn't occur until after the kick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkwwjd Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Just to be sure ... I've seen it said a few times in this thread ... Defensive holding doesn't have to be on a pass play. There are times that a DT is flagged for holding an OL so that a LB can knife through the line. The penalty is not just called against eligible receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Just to be sure ... I've seen it said a few times in this thread ... Defensive holding doesn't have to be on a pass play. There are times that a DT is flagged for holding an OL so that a LB can knife through the line. The penalty is not just called against eligible receivers. Exactly. Anytime someone tackles someone without the ball it's a holding penalty. He started the process of tackling the dude before the punt, so it's considered a pre-punt penalty. It sucks, but it's the right call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralonzo Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Somewhat off topic, but on the theme of picking the flag up: Last night's game I saw the refs pick up an illegal contact flag against the Stealer's defense because, and I quote, "the ball was throw to the other side of the field." Uhhh, what? Never heard that before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 set them up for the TD? 71 yards away? Exactly where the art of great refereeing comes in. Well, I think you know what I meant because you went and reiterated my point with your second part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoretalk Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 The penalty for holding by the "receiving/defensive" team on a punt if the hold occurs before the ball touches the punter's foot results in a 5 yard penalty with an automatic first down (Another incredibly stupid NFL rule!). If the holding occurs from the moment the ball touches the punter's foot until the end of the play the resulting penalty is 10 yards from the spot of the ball following the conclusion of the play with the receiving team having possession and a first down. There is no question that there was a hold on this play, the video clearly shows it. I never saw any replay that syncs the timing of that hold with the ball touching Carolina's punter's foot. However, there is no reason to hold like that on the interior of the line during a punt and it was obviously a non-thinking moment. One of the posters implied that the pass interference penalty at the end of the game was in exchange for the "bad call" on the punt but it is clear that Stevie was interfered with. And, the last thing I can imagine is any officiating team making up for a bad call by making another bad call at a crucial moment in the game. I am definitely celebrating this amazing win ... I still have no voice after shouting and dancing around the stadium for 15 minutes after the game was over. But, the BILLS still have work to get done especially related to those careless penalties that do not benefit the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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