Kicker/Punter

[The Big Cat]

I'm not sure if you're be sarcastic. But if you're not, a soccer goalie isn't in full pads, nor does he have to angle his punts or have a decent hang-time, nor does he have to keep his goal kicks in bounds, nor does he have to kick the ball through goal posts.

 

Nor is he kicking an oblong object with points at either end.

[Offside Number 76]

I'm not sure if you're be sarcastic. But if you're not, a soccer goalie isn't in full pads, nor does he have to angle his punts or have a decent hang-time, nor does he have to keep his goal kicks in bounds, nor does he have to kick the ball through goal posts.

 

I'm not. Yes, he has to angle his punts, and yes, he wants to keep his goal kicks (which are taken without a tee) in bounds. No, he does not have to kick the ball through goal posts, but hundreds of pro-level goalies have that level of accuracy.

 

To the other point, I'm not sure it matters whether the ball is pointed.

[uncle flap]

I'm not. Yes, he has to angle his punts, and yes, he wants to keep his goal kicks (which are taken without a tee) in bounds. No, he does not have to kick the ball through goal posts, but hundreds of pro-level goalies have that level of accuracy.

 

To the other point, I'm not sure it matters whether the ball is pointed.

 

Yes, but that is not the keeper's primary job. His primary job is to make saves. Less than perfect goal kicks and punts are fielded by players, not stationary objects.

 

Furthermore, if he shanks a kick, it's likely not to affect the game as much as a missed field goal or terrible punt.

[merlin]

The old AFC Houston Oilers had a QB who also served as their punter (Dan Pastorini). Also, QB George Blanda of the Oakland Raiders used to kick FG's as well.

 

There are a number of punters who have served as "kick-off specialists" as well - currently, Pat Macafee of the Colts handles both those duties - but they still employ a FG specialist as well.

[bowery4]

I also thought that the roster space is an issue in this context. In the 60s, rosters were smaller (46 if I remember correctly?) and made larger because of the FG and punting positions (was this pre-merger?). I am not sure if the LS was then, as well. I would think a center could handle the job (preferably a back up), but if injury did strike.....sol.

Gogo!Gogolak!!, I remember this cheer from my childhood,

[DC Greg]

One thing I've never understood: are kicking and punting such vastly different skills that an NFL caliber kicker couldn't also punt? It seems that with roster spots at a premium, carrying only one K/P would make sense, and a kicker who could develop reasonable punting skills would be a valuable property. You could have the backup QB or a WR do the holding, like in the old days.

 

For that matter, why carry a long snapper? Can't anyone else develop the skills to snap the ball and head-hunt downfield? Sounds like a set of skills that a backup LB or SS or TE should be able to develop.

 

Probably the answer to all of this is "nobody else does that." What about the new regime thinking outside the box?

 

Have read this board for awhile but first time posting.

 

I've often wondered the same thing about long snappers. I snapped in college and played DE. My typical snap time for a punt was .65 to .68 seconds. A good NFL long snap is anywhere in between .6 and .7 seconds. I know there are a ton of guys playing various positions in the NFL (usually DE or TE) that were long snappers in college. I've got to think at least a few of those guys have the capability to get it back there as good as most snappers (and you do see a poor snap almost every game, but usually the punter still gets it off). And just to your point about headhunting, the coaches could care less about the LS making tackles. Yeah they run down and try to cover, but they're usually not near the NFL caliber athletes as every other player on that punt team. Occasionally they make tackles, but I've seen Garrison Sanborn have his ankles broken more than a handful of times in the open field with a punt returner. All NFL teams care about from the LS is that the snap is fast and accurate.

 

I wonder if coaches are just too nervous of the storm that would hit if they had a regular player as a snapper and he did botch one. With today's mass media coverage of the NFL, you know people would be very quick to call them out for doing something different than every other team in the league.

[Christy]

My son has punted two years in College, he is working this summer with a former NFL Kicker who also coaches punters, he told me that D-1 Colleges would rather have an average punter that can also kick off rather than a great punter who doesn't kick at all. So it seems that teams would rather have the kicker who does only field goals and extra points and leave the kick off duties to another player. The Bills had that last year for the first couple of games with the kid from Central Michigan, they cut him early in the season so something wasn't working or they felt they needed the roster slot for another position. I was surprised they cut Stahovich so soon in the preseason why not have him hang around to push Powell? Living in San Diego I saw Stahovich kick at SDSU and he was very good? Maybe they let him go early so he may have an opportunity to try out for another team?

[Offside Number 76]

Yes, but that is not the keeper's primary job. His primary job is to make saves. Less than perfect goal kicks and punts are fielded by players, not stationary objects.

 

Furthermore, if he shanks a kick, it's likely not to affect the game as much as a missed field goal or terrible punt.

 

Not that I want to get into too much of a tangent, but the reason I was a ****ty keeper was because of my kicking game. I could save just about anything, but I couldn't get the ball upfield or to the right players with any distance. Defenders had to take my goal kicks and my punts were horrible. So much for that career option.

 

Anyway, point is, I don't see any reason why one man couldn't do both jobs. I do understand that they are different kicks.

 

And is Danny White that long ago?

[Maybe Someday]

This mostly. I think the last kicker that tried to do both was down in Atlanta.

.

Who was that?

 

The last player I remember who dabbled in both was Russell Erxleben.

It was Michael Koenen in 2006 but it didn't last long. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Koenen

"In the Falcons' first preseason game of 2006, Koenen made four field goals, from 53, 50, 40, and 45 yards, along with doing the punting and kickoff duties. Koenen was slated to do the placekicking, punting, and kickoffs for the Falcons, something that is rarely done in the NFL by one player;^[2] however after he converted only two of eight field goal attempts, Morten Andersen was brought in to take over field goal duties leaving Koenen to focus on punts and kickoffs for the Falcons."

[Pondslider]

This conversation reminds me of Chris Kluwe's letter to the Hall of Fame committee on Deadspin.

 

http://deadspin.com/5960968/an-nfl-punter-to-the-hall-of-fame-selection-committee-ray-guy-was-great-at-his-job-youre-not

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

This comes up every once in a while. I agree in principle that it seems like 32 guys in the world could master both skills.

 

But for pragmatic purposes, are you really going to value that extra LB or WR on the roster when you're losing an average of 5 yards on every punt or missing 30% of your FG's? Every roster spot is a matter of opportunity cost.

[Cash]

This comes up every once in a while. I agree in principle that it seems like 32 guys in the world could master both skills.

 

But for pragmatic purposes, are you really going to value that extra LB or WR on the roster when you're losing an average of 5 yards on every punt or missing 30% of your FG's? Every roster spot is a matter of opportunity cost.

 

Opportunity cost is exactly right. Does having an extra "real" player on the roster (and active on gameday) help? Sure. But does it help enough to outweigh the cost? Most teams these days have a LS who doesn't play another position, and use the P as their holder on kicks. (Some probably still use the backup or 3rd-string QB as the holder, but the days of having the starting TE as the holder seem to be long gone.) The big advantage to this setup is that your 3 specialists can practice FGs by themselves while the rest of the team practices anything else. You'll never have the LS drawn away from FG practice because he has to run a D-line drill, for example.

 

The first cost to having 1 guy be both K/P is that presumably at least 1 of your kicking or punting gets worse. The second is that you need to have a position player serve as the holder. That one's not a big deal if you can just use the 3rd-string QB, who gets virtually no practice reps. And if your kicker or punter already stinks, maybe it's worth your while to see if the other guy can do both? At least for this year, then sign a guy in the offseason?

 

The first cost to having a position player (presumably a backup) serve as the LS is, again, practice time. The more he has to practice his "real" position, the less time he has to practice long snapping. The second cost is that if he's a "real" player, he'll probably be playing at least a couple snaps a game as a C/DE/TE/whatever, and there's a chance he gets hurt. Or if the guy in front of him gets hurt, now he has to play full-time, can't hardly ever practice his snapping, and there's a good chance he goes down in a game. In this scenario, you'd probably want to have at least a couple of guys take some time every week to practice long snapping. It would probably still work okay, at least most of the time.

 

If I was a coach, I think I would definitely take the "everyone does it that way" approach and just dedicate 3 roster spots for K, P, & LS.

 

By the way, in the CFL, every team carries exactly 1 K/P and that's it, so it's not like it's impossible. But their rosters are significantly smaller (46 total, 42 active, with 12 players on the field at all times), so there's a bigger benefit to keeping another position player vs. a second specialist. I don't know whether CFL teams usually keep dedicated long snappers, but I tend to think they don't.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

No one responded to it, but this is the big issue with having one guy to do both. If that guy gets hurt, you're suddenly out of both a kicker and a punter with no one left to replace those duties.

 

Then they need to get a backup who can do both.

 

Wait…

 

It was Michael Koenen in 2006 but it didn't last long. http://en.wikipedia..../Michael_Koenen

"In the Falcons' first preseason game of 2006, Koenen made four field goals, from 53, 50, 40, and 45 yards, along with doing the punting and kickoff duties. Koenen was slated to do the placekicking, punting, and kickoffs for the Falcons, something that is rarely done in the NFL by one player;^[2] however after he converted only two of eight field goal attempts, Morten Andersen was brought in to take over field goal duties leaving Koenen to focus on punts and kickoffs for the Falcons."

 

Thanks.

 

I don't remember Koenen doing both.

 

Good call.

Edited August 14, 2013 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Bills Fan since '64]

The mechanics of kicking are different for figgys & kos than fer punts. A ko is like a golf Driver. A figgy like a golf Chip. Now yer punt's more like a 5 iron.

It's difficult to master each discipline.

 

This is actually pretty funny, because last time I looked, a golfer carries 14 clubs in his bag and has to be good with all of them.

 

Maybe we should invent "special teams golf" so you'd have one guy hit off the tee, another hit from the fairway, another guy to run the short game and one guy to putt. Actually, two guys to putt, one guy to putt from distances and another guy (we can call him Mariano Rivera) to come in and putt only when the ball is within 10 feet of the cup.

 

Wisdom generally becomes conventional for good reason.

Right, because nobody can ever fire you for doing what is considered conventional. Look around the league at who the innovative franchises are, and you'll see that they're the ones that do things that are unconventional. Spread offense, shotgun, cover 2, 3-4 defense, read option - once upon a time these were new and unconventional but now everyone does them, including the franchises that innovate only when the innovations become "conventional." There's a name for franchises like that: Buffalo Bills (with the very important exception of the Marv Levy era).

 

You want botched snaps on figgys and punts? It is a skill. You get to be the best by having ability & practicing over and over and over and over and over...I suppose the same can be said for why punters are punters and kickers are kickers.

You don't think there are botched snaps on figgys and punts? Happens all the time, even with specialists at LS.

[Beerball]

 

You don't think there are botched snaps on figgys and punts? Happens all the time, even with specialists at LS.

How many did the Bills have last season? When was the last really bad snap that you can remember from a Bills LS? It doesn't happen all the time.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

This is actually pretty funny, because last time I looked, a golfer carries 14 clubs in his bag and has to be good with all of them.

 

Maybe we should invent "special teams golf" so you'd have one guy hit off the tee, another hit from the fairway, another guy to run the short game and one guy to putt. Actually, two guys to putt, one guy to putt from distances and another guy (we can call him Mariano Rivera) to come in and putt only when the ball is within 10 feet of the cup.

 

 

Right, because nobody can ever fire you for doing what is considered conventional. Look around the league at who the innovative franchises are, and you'll see that they're the ones that do things that are unconventional. Spread offense, shotgun, cover 2, 3-4 defense, read option - once upon a time these were new and unconventional but now everyone does them, including the franchises that innovate only when the innovations become "conventional." There's a name for franchises like that: Buffalo Bills (with the very important exception of the Marv Levy era).

 

 

You don't think there are botched snaps on figgys and punts? Happens all the time, even with specialists at LS.

 

I'm not sure what the point of your post is?

 

Whether it was your intent or not you made the posts of Nanker, Big Cat, and Beerball stronger.

[Cash]

You don't think there are botched snaps on figgys and punts? Happens all the time, even with specialists at LS.

 

Happens all the time? The last one I can distinctly remember was Romo's famous "Oh no Romo" botched snap in 2007. (And even that one I mis-remembered as an extra point upthread. It was actually a 19-yard field goal attempt.) I really can't remember when the Bills last botched a snap on a punt or FG. I could be way off, but I feel like the Bills were one of the earlier teams to have their P function as FG holder, and I think that's been the case since at least Chris Mohr, maybe earlier.

 

Now, I mostly watch the Bills these days, so I'm sure I miss some of the botched snaps that happen league-wide. But what does it mean that they happen all the time? How many were there last year? I would guess three or less.

[shrader]

Wasn't there an NFL team that started the season with one guy who did both within the last couple years? If I remember right, they quickly bailed on the experiment, possibly due to injury.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

Wasn't there an NFL team that started the season with one guy who did both within the last couple years? If I remember right, they quickly bailed on the experiment, possibly due to injury.

The injury thing is a concern, but most coaches will at least practice someone on the roster (usually the kickers and punters switch, since they have some time on their hands) so it would be a question of another position player instead of another specialist. Some guys have done kicking earlier in their careers. It would only be for the remainder of the game anyway, because there are enough kickers around to replace the injured player. The only issue in that case would be removing a player from the 53 to make room for an additional specialist.

 

The only one I remember was Mike as stated above, although there have been a few punters that did some kicking off. Like in our scenario, it would be nice for Powell to be able to kick off so we don't take an additional roster spot with a specialist.

 

I liken the difference between kicking and punting to the difference between swinging a bat and a golf club. If you have ever played softball and golf and have a pretty decent swing you may notice you tend to pop the ball up playing softball and chunk or hit a golf ball thin. The muscle memory bleeds from one swing to another and your hands can get out of place causing issues. Add to that the pressure of kicking field goals and the consistency is not there.

 

It was Michael Koenen in 2006 but it didn't last long. http://en.wikipedia..../Michael_Koenen

"In the Falcons' first preseason game of 2006, Koenen made four field goals, from 53, 50, 40, and 45 yards, along with doing the punting and kickoff duties. Koenen was slated to do the placekicking, punting, and kickoffs for the Falcons, something that is rarely done in the NFL by one player;^[2] however after he converted only two of eight field goal attempts, Morten Andersen was brought in to take over field goal duties leaving Koenen to focus on punts and kickoffs for the Falcons."

 

Thanks, I was at work when I saw SJBF's question and I couldn't respond. I got a new machine, so it may be locked down fro me now.