EJ's Florida Game Lucky for Bills?

[Last Guy on the Bench]

I recently watched all FSU's offensive possessions in the infamous 2012 Florida game. Full game is here:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NCdvC9LSlg

 

It wasn't fun, but it didn't bum me out as much as I thought it would. EJ made some bad decisions, but it felt like one of those games that just didn't go well and kind of snowballed on him. Used to happen to Kelly at least once a season. Happens to almost every QB. Also, I think I read somewhere that he had hurt himself the week before, so wasn't playing at 100%.

 

On the plus side, he hung in there mentally. The team came back. EJ's late fumble that killed their chances was not actually careless IMO. He got his clock cleaned. Looked to me like he had the ball pretty securely, but when he got hit his body went limp and he just let go of it. He lay on the ground without moving for a little bit. It was a KO or something close.

 

On another board, a poster mentioned running into Bill Polian at a golf tournament on Friday. The poster said he chatted with Polian for a while about the Bills' draft, and Polian apparently said he had EJ at the top of his rankings until he watched the Florida tape. That seems like a lot of weight to give one game, especially when the guy has played well against some other good teams and in bowl games. If other NFL teams over-weighted that Florida game, and if, as I suspect, it was just one of those days and not indicative or EJ's overall ability or mental toughness, it might have been the best thing that's happened to the Bills in a long time. If EJ plays lights out in that game and they beat the number 4 team in the country, maybe he would have been wearing a KC, Oakland, Jax, or Philly jersey right now.

 

Just a thought.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Last Guy on the Bench

[mitchmurraydowntown]

Jimbo seemed to have had his issues during our 4 Superbowls as well.

Edited May 6, 2013 by mitchmurraydowntown

[Last Guy on the Bench]

Jimbo seemed to have had his issues during our 4 Superbowls as well.

 

OK, so two per year.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Last Guy on the Bench

[John Cocktosten]

EJ made a living off of terrible ACC defenses. He hit a brick wall when he had to play a top defense. That game was huge for FSU and he failed despite playing at home and having a ton of offensive talent. That's EJ though, he's good enough to fit in but he will never win a game by himself.

[KDIGGZ]

I remember Luck sucking pretty bad against Oregon. Judging someone on one game is silly

[KDIGGZ]

Just watched the first half and I thought Manuel did well in the 2 min drill and our new kicker looks good!

[johnnywo]

EJ made a living off of terrible ACC defenses. He hit a brick wall when he had to play a top defense. That game was huge for FSU and he failed despite playing at home and having a ton of offensive talent. That's EJ though, he's good enough to fit in but he will never win a game by himself.

 

Let's hope you're wrong...All we've had here is QBs that can't win a game by themselves in the last 13 years.....GO BILLS!

[It's in My Blood]

EJ made a living off of terrible ACC defenses. He hit a brick wall when he had to play a top defense. That game was huge for FSU and he failed despite playing at home and having a ton of offensive talent. That's EJ though, he's good enough to fit in but he will never win a game by himself.

 

How you could possibly come to such a conclusion on EJ's future in the NFL is ridiculous. He hasn't even taken a snap yet @ this level, where he will be surrounded by more talent than he had at FSU.

[Last Guy on the Bench]

How you could possibly come to such a conclusion on EJ's future in the NFL is ridiculous. He hasn't even taken a snap yet @ this level, where he will be surrounded by more talent than he had at FSU.

 

Agreed. I never understand people who are so sure about the future of still-developing younger guys. It's a complete fantasy, masquerading as critical thinking, to imagine you can see players' futures clearly. The guys who spend their lives evaluating this stuff for a living are geniuses if they get it approximately sorta kinda right even 50% of the time.

[Mark80]

EJ made a living off of terrible ACC defenses. He hit a brick wall when he had to play a top defense. That game was huge for FSU and he failed despite playing at home and having a ton of offensive talent. That's EJ though, he's good enough to fit in but he will never win a game by himself.

 

You would do well to do some research on EJ's supporting offensive cast at FSU compared to that of Luck, RGIII, Wilson, Barkley, Bray, Smith, among others. Considering where the rest of the offensive players (especially skill positions) are being selected by the NFL at the other schools compared to FSU, it becomes pretty apparent that EJ got the most out of what he had to work with regardless of the caliber of defenses he was supposedly playing against. How many elite QBs have come out of the SEC lately playing against those tremendous defenses? Not many. That point is baseless.

[Santana]

Two of those picks were on him for sure, the one on the sideline was on the receiver, I mean the guy totally just gave up on his route. The fumble to me didn't show him being that careless with the ball he definitely got knocked out, you could tell by the way his arm folded underneath him. I've seen Fitzpatrick have way worse games than this jmo

[Maury Ballstein]

EJ made a living off of terrible ACC defenses. He hit a brick wall when he had to play a top defense. That game was huge for FSU and he failed despite playing at home and having a ton of offensive talent. That's EJ though, he's good enough to fit in but he will never win a game by himself.

 

Carry this label with you for the next three years....maybe it will be a good look? Maybe you'll look like a shmo for your thorough EJ trashing through several threads.....John "EJ's a bust, I called it"Cocktosen.

 

I'm all for some thorough hating but I see zero reasons for EJ to recieve any scorn....he hasn't won/lost a game for us yet.....

 

IMO fsu play calling wasn't necessarily the air raid type offense.....let's give it 5 or so games to write EJ's first chapter.

[iommi]

EJ made a living off of terrible ACC defenses. He hit a brick wall when he had to play a top defense. That game was huge for FSU and he failed despite playing at home and having a ton of offensive talent. That's EJ though, he's good enough to fit in but he will never win a game by himself.

 

Let's play devil's advocate here. A list of quarterback's who have played in Super bowl's and their subsequent supposed powerhouse college programs. I hate sweeping opinions, can't you wait for the guy to step on the field with a scheme suited to his skills, an injection of speed, and talent before you call the guy a bust.

 

Joe Flacco - Delaware

 

Colin Kaepernick - Nevada

 

Ben Roethlisberger - Miami (OH)

 

Kurt Warner - Northern Iowa

 

Matt Hasselback - Boston College

 

Jake Delhomme - Louisiana - Lafayette

 

Rich Gannon - Delaware

 

Kerry Collins - Penn State

Edited May 6, 2013 by iommi

[John Cocktosten]

You would do well to do some research on EJ's supporting offensive cast at FSU compared to that of Luck, RGIII, Wilson, Barkley, Bray, Smith, among others. Considering where the rest of the offensive players (especially skill positions) are being selected by the NFL at the other schools compared to FSU, it becomes pretty apparent that EJ got the most out of what he had to work with regardless of the caliber of defenses he was supposedly playing against. How many elite QBs have come out of the SEC lately playing against those tremendous defenses? Not many. That point is baseless.

 

I really don't have to do research because I know CFB inside and out. I know that FSU recruits as well as any other team and hasn't had a class outside of the top 10 in 5-6 years. They have a ridiculous group of of 5* running back, Wr's and a top TE. His first team Oline wasn't bad either although they do lack depth. Their defense is absurdly loaded with 5* depth at every position which gives the offense an advantage in every single game. They have the best recruiting base in the country and that's not even arguable. SO you should do some research.

 

Not sure why you are bringing up the SEC. The ACC has been particularly terrible the last few years and that's where EJ has looked his best. When he has to play against teams OOC like Florida or Oklahoma, he doesn't look quite as good. Go back and run the numbers. I don't have to because I actually watched the games.

[Dorkington]

So, basically, mistake prone and not clutch.

 

He should fit right in.

[eball]

I really don't have to do research because I know CFB inside and out. I know that FSU recruits as well as any other team and hasn't had a class outside of the top 10 in 5-6 years. They have a ridiculous group of of 5* running back, Wr's and a top TE. His first team Oline wasn't bad either although they do lack depth. Their defense is absurdly loaded with 5* depth at every position which gives the offense an advantage in every single game. They have the best recruiting base in the country and that's not even arguable. SO you should do some research.

 

Not sure why you are bringing up the SEC. The ACC has been particularly terrible the last few years and that's where EJ has looked his best. When he has to play against teams OOC like Florida or Oklahoma, he doesn't look quite as good. Go back and run the numbers. I don't have to because I actually watched the games.

 

That "absurdly loaded" defense sure shat themselves against Florida, didn't they? They also blew a 16-0 hafltime lead against NC State. I guess none of the FSU guys on defense will be good pros?

[John Cocktosten]

Carry this label with you for the next three years....maybe it will be a good look? Maybe you'll look like a shmo for your thorough EJ trashing through several threads.....John "EJ's a bust, I called it"Cocktosen.

 

I'm all for some thorough hating but I see zero reasons for EJ to recieve any scorn....he hasn't won/lost a game for us yet.....

 

IMO fsu play calling wasn't necessarily the air raid type offense.....let's give it 5 or so games to write EJ's first chapter.

 

Can I ask you a question- can I not like the pick? Can I have an educated point of view just because you don't agree with it? I'm not concerned about being right, I'm concerned that the Bills made the wrong choice again. I won't be rooting against him but my expectations of him are far from the anointed savior that so many, who haven't seen him in a game outside of youtube, think he is.

 

I agree with you about the play calling. Jimbo is a known control freak with his players and coaches (mass exodus). That being said, Jimbo didn't turn the ball over 4 times in the biggest game of the season at home. Jimbo didn't fail to log a single point against NCst in the second half. EJ has never been able to do it by himself. Just facts.

[iommi]

You don't have to like the pick, but your essentially trolling. The guy has yet to set foot into rookie minicamp, give the guy the chance to get acclimated to a new system and pro style weapons and play an NFL game prior to calling his demise.

[thebandit27]

EJ made a living off of terrible ACC defenses. He hit a brick wall when he had to play a top defense. That game was huge for FSU and he failed despite playing at home and having a ton of offensive talent. That's EJ though, he's good enough to fit in but he will never win a game by himself.

 

Nothing like a poster that doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

EJ can't play a top defense, huh? How convenient, since the best Ds they faced all year in 2012 were:

 

- Virginia Tech (18th in FBS); EJ was 25-42 for 326 with 3 TDs and 1 INT in a 28-22 win

- Maryland (21st in FBS); EJ was 74% passing with 2 TDs in a 41-14 rout

 

Or maybe you were referring to 2011...when the best Ds EJ faced were the following:

 

- Oklahoma (39th in FBS); here's one where he struggled, going only 13 of 19 with 2 INTs in a tough loss

- Miami (22nd in FBS); 17-23 (74%) with 1 TD in a 4-point win

- Virginia (34th in FBS); 18-31 with 1 TD in a 1-point loss

- Florida (25th in FBS); this was a lousy game by both teams...EJ was only 6 of 13 for 65 yds 0 TD/0 Ints, but FSU did win the game 21-7

- Notre Dame (28th in FBS); 20-31 for 249 with 2 TDs in an 18-14 bowl game victory

 

So, yeah, you're wrong.

 

I really don't have to do research because I know CFB inside and out. I know that FSU recruits as well as any other team and hasn't had a class outside of the top 10 in 5-6 years. They have a ridiculous group of of 5* running back, Wr's and a top TE. His first team Oline wasn't bad either although they do lack depth. Their defense is absurdly loaded with 5* depth at every position which gives the offense an advantage in every single game. They have the best recruiting base in the country and that's not even arguable. SO you should do some research.

 

Not sure why you are bringing up the SEC. The ACC has been particularly terrible the last few years and that's where EJ has looked his best. When he has to play against teams OOC like Florida or Oklahoma, he doesn't look quite as good. Go back and run the numbers. I don't have to because I actually watched the games.

 

In light of the evidence that proves you completely wrong, you may want to retract this statement.

 

Can I ask you a question- can I not like the pick? Can I have an educated point of view just because you don't agree with it? I'm not concerned about being right, I'm concerned that the Bills made the wrong choice again. I won't be rooting against him but my expectations of him are far from the anointed savior that so many, who haven't seen him in a game outside of youtube, think he is.

 

I agree with you about the play calling. Jimbo is a known control freak with his players and coaches (mass exodus). That being said, Jimbo didn't turn the ball over 4 times in the biggest game of the season at home. Jimbo didn't fail to log a single point against NCst in the second half. EJ has never been able to do it by himself. Just facts.

 

Of course you can not like the pick, just don't lie and we won't have an issue.

[John Cocktosten]

That "absurdly loaded" defense sure shat themselves against Florida, didn't they? They also blew a 16-0 hafltime lead against NC State. I guess none of the FSU guys on defense will be good pros?

 

Yeah it was absurdly loaded and FSU would've lost to Va Tech and Ga Tech if it wasn't for the D. Did you see how many players were taken? If B Jenkins and Carridine don't get hurt, they might have had 3 DE's go in the first round with three 5 Star backups. Christain Jones and Joyner were second round locks who stayed in college as well. Not to mention T Jurnigan who will be a first rounder but is a true soph. Oh and Rhoades....so I guess they were loaded.

 

The defense didn't blow that game if you actually watched. An offense should be able to score more than 16 on a terrible defense. At least NC St had a decent QB. Teams like Miami, UNC and Tenn put up at least 35 on NCst. Hell Clemson almost scored 70 I think. So yeah, the defense did enough. the EJ led offense let them down that game.

 

You don't have to like the pick, but your essentially trolling. The guy has yet to set foot into rookie minicamp, give the guy the chance to get acclimated to a new system and pro style weapons and play an NFL game prior to calling his demise.

 

*you're.....This is trolling.

 

I'm expressing my opinion. I didn't like Tebow, Sanchez or Leinart either. Was that trolling?

[Maury Ballstein]

You can hate the pick...I just choose to wait to see 8 or so weeks of EJ playing as starting qb in the NFL, before I make a call on him.

 

File me as optimistic for now, we definetly don't share the same viewpoint on this. EJ looked awesome in senior bowl and has tons of potential, time will tell

 

Robert woods SJ darick TJ are gonna help him out a ton.....wasn't no Robert woods playing for FSU last year

[Last Guy on the Bench]

Can I ask you a question- can I not like the pick? Can I have an educated point of view just because you don't agree with it? I'm not concerned about being right, I'm concerned that the Bills made the wrong choice again. I won't be rooting against him but my expectations of him are far from the anointed savior that so many, who haven't seen him in a game outside of youtube, think he is.

 

I agree with you about the play calling. Jimbo is a known control freak with his players and coaches (mass exodus). That being said, Jimbo didn't turn the ball over 4 times in the biggest game of the season at home. Jimbo didn't fail to log a single point against NCst in the second half. EJ has never been able to do it by himself. Just facts.

 

It's not the opinion, it's the tone of certainty. You pick out a few games, each involving dozens of players and coaches, specific conditions, specific systems, etc. and then offer your prediction of the future of a still-developing young player as a fact. Not saying your opinion is not educated. And of course, you might be right. But lots of people with very educated opinions get their player prognostications wrong all the time, either because they didn't account for all the different variables at work (nor could they have), or because players change over time.

 

This is a forum for discussing opinions, but when people present opinions as stone-cold facts, and do it over and over and over again, well, they provoke an understandable reaction.

 

I'd say the same thing to anyone who says repeatedly that EJ will definitely be an all-pro.

 

I posted that vid link, because I was really interested in hearing different takes on EJ's play during that game beyond the obvious stats and end-result. As for me, I have no idea what he will turn into. I'm optimistic, but wouldn't bet a penny on my opinion either way.

[John Cocktosten]

Nothing like a poster that doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

EJ can't play a top defense, huh? How convenient, since the best Ds they faced all year in 2012 were:

 

- Virginia Tech (18th in FBS); EJ was 25-42 for 326 with 3 TDs and 1 INT in a 28-22 win

- Maryland (21st in FBS); EJ was 74% passing with 2 TDs in a 41-14 rout

 

Or maybe you were referring to 2011...when the best Ds EJ faced were the following:

 

- Oklahoma (39th in FBS); here's one where he struggled, going only 13 of 19 with 2 INTs in a tough loss

- Miami (22nd in FBS); 17-23 (74%) with 1 TD in a 4-point win

- Virginia (34th in FBS); 18-31 with 1 TD in a 1-point loss

- Florida (25th in FBS); this was a lousy game by both teams...EJ was only 6 of 13 for 65 yds 0 TD/0 Ints, but FSU did win the game 21-7

- Notre Dame (28th in FBS); 20-31 for 249 with 2 TDs in an 18-14 bowl game victory

 

So, yeah, you're wrong.

 

 

 

In light of the evidence that proves you completely wrong, you may want to retract this statement.

 

 

 

Of course you can not like the pick, just don't lie and we won't have an issue.

 

The fact that you brought up Maryland and Va Tech says all you know about CFB. Last Year was Va Tech's worst season in 15 years. They had to win their last game of the year to be bowl eligible. Maryland literally lost every QB on the roster and had a starting LB playing QB at the year's end. You can't be serious.

 

Do you remember the OU game in '11? EJ was playing horribly and got hurt. The backup Clint Trickett came in and outplayed EJ tying the game in the 4th.

 

The rest of your "stats' are laughably funny. Look at what those defenses do outside of the ACC. That ND team was a 5 loss team that they beat and started 3 freshman (Floyd, Tuitt, Nix) on the DL. That being said, that was EJ's best game that year so I'll give you one.

 

Please stat boy, I could make a case that Fitz was accurate in '11 by his comp%. But I chose to watch the games and realized that it was a total fluke.

[KDIGGZ]

If that was his worst game then I like our chances. I didn't see anything in there that would make me agree with Polian. He had 1 bad int but those happen from time to time. The other pick was when the receiver gave up on the play and the fumble was just a big opportune hit. I think Manuel showed good perseverance and good poise and capped it off by that nice run for a TD as time expired. He made some good plays with his legs while also keeping his eyes downfield. His receivers didn't make a lot of plays for him like NFL caliber receivers will. Overall I think he had a tough game but he still stood out as the best player on the field.

 

The big takeaway from watching this was WOW our new kicker looks good! He hit more 50 yard fg's in this game than Lindell hit in the last 2 years!

[iommi]

Yeah it was absurdly loaded and FSU would've lost to Va Tech and Ga Tech if it wasn't for the D. Did you see how many players were taken? If B Jenkins and Carridine don't get hurt, they might have had 3 DE's go in the first round with three 5 Star backups. Christain Jones and Joyner were second round locks who stayed in college as well. Not to mention T Jurnigan who will be a first rounder but is a true soph. Oh and Rhoades....so I guess they were loaded.

 

The defense didn't blow that game if you actually watched. An offense should be able to score more than 16 on a terrible defense. At least NC St had a decent QB. Teams like Miami, UNC and Tenn put up at least 35 on NCst. Hell Clemson almost scored 70 I think. So yeah, the defense did enough. the EJ led offense let them down that game.

 

 

 

*you're.....This is trolling.

 

I'm expressing my opinion. I didn't like Tebow, Sanchez or Leinart either. Was that trolling?

 

 

Cool, like you said you are entitled your opinions. I personally think a sweeping statement about a player's ability prior to entering rookie minicamp is a bit hasty. I think this is a case of revisionist history. In the coming years you can come back and tell everyone on the board how right you were if EJ bombs. I don't think your argument about the level of competition holds any water. I can simply refute that by comparing the college numbers of Joe Flacco or Colin Kaepernick who arguably played against weaker competition, and your argument about the level of defenses has already been refuted.

 

It's not the opinion, it's the tone of certainty. You pick out a few games, each involving dozens of players and coaches, specific conditions, specific systems, etc. and then offer your prediction of the future of a still-developing young player as a fact. Not saying your opinion is not educated. And of course, you might be right. But lots of people with very educated opinions get their player prognostications wrong all the time, either because they didn't account for all the different variables at work (nor could they have), or because players change over time.

 

This is a forum for discussing opinions, but when people present opinions as stone-cold facts, and do it over and over and over again, well, they provoke an understandable reaction.

 

I'd say the same thing to anyone who says repeatedly that EJ will definitely be an all-pro.

 

I posted that vid link, because I was really interested in hearing different takes on EJ's play during that game beyond the obvious stats and end-result. As for me, I have no idea what he will turn into. I'm optimistic, but wouldn't bet a penny on my opinion either way.

 

 

^^^ This!

[John Cocktosten]

It's not the opinion, it's the tone of certainty. You pick out a few games, each involving dozens of players and coaches, specific conditions, specific systems, etc. and then offer your prediction of the future of a still-developing young player as a fact. Not saying your opinion is not educated. And of course, you might be right. But lots of people with very educated opinions get their player prognostications wrong all the time, either because they didn't account for all the different variables at work (nor could they have), or because players change over time.

 

This is a forum for discussing opinions, but when people present opinions as stone-cold facts, and do it over and over and over again, well, they provoke an understandable reaction.

 

I'd say the same thing to anyone who says repeatedly that EJ will definitely be an all-pro.

 

I posted that vid link, because I was really interested in hearing different takes on EJ's play during that game beyond the obvious stats and end-result. As for me, I have no idea what he will turn into. I'm optimistic, but wouldn't bet a penny on my opinion either way.

 

Fair but what am I supposed to base my opinions on? Defenses like WF, Maryland and USF? Or his tougher games like OU and UF? That's how CFB goes, you might play 3-4 good teams per year and the rest are against very average comp.

 

To me, great QBs will their team to wins. I've watched football for a long time and we've all seen guys like Brady and Manning do this even when the rest of the team doesn't have it. Not sure how they do it but it's an intangible that very few QBs have. That's why I loved R WIlson. The effect he had on Wisky in '11 should have won him the Heisman. He transformed that team. I've never seen that out of EJ.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Fair but what am I supposed to base my opinions on? Defenses like WF, Maryland and USF? Or his tougher games like OU and UF? That's how CFB goes, you might play 3-4 good teams per year and the rest are against very average comp.

 

To me, great QBs will their team to wins. I've watched football for a long time and we've all seen guys like Brady and Manning do this even when the rest of the team doesn't have it. Not sure how they do it but it's an intangible that very few QBs have. That's why I loved R WIlson. The effect he had on Wisky in '11 should have won him the Heisman. He transformed that team. I've never seen that out of EJ.

 

Brady and Manning?

 

Certainly not in college which is what we're evaluating right now.

 

How clutch was Manning in college?

 

As usual JC, I find your comments to be backed by knowledge but not fair and balanced.

 

You act like a developing young player is never going to evolve beyond what you've already seen of him.

[John Cocktosten]

Cool, like you said you are entitled your opinions. I personally think a sweeping statement about a player's ability prior to entering rookie minicamp is a bit hasty. I think this is a case of revisionist history. In the coming years you can come back and tell everyone on the board how right you were if EJ bombs. I don't think your argument about the level of competition holds any water. I can simply refute that by comparing the college numbers of Joe Flacco or Colin Kaepernick who arguably played against weaker competition, and your argument about the level of defenses has already been refuted.

 

Well it's definitely not a case of revisionist history because I'm saying before hand. You have 113 posts so you probably haven't been here for too long. Go ahead and read through history, I' don't say I told ya so and never have.....well maybe with Nix (but come on, are people that blind?!?) I was on the board the day Marrone got hired saying that I loved the hire and was getting slammed for it so is that good enough or do I have to drink the entire cup of Kool Aid? Don't get honesty mixed up with negativity or else you'll wind up like on of them.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Well it's definitely not a case of revisionist history because I'm saying before hand. You have 113 posts so you probably haven't been here for too long. Go ahead and read through history, I' don't say I told ya so and never have.....well maybe with Nix (but come on, are people that blind?!?) I was on the board the day Marrone got hired saying that I loved the hire and was getting slammed for it so is that good enough or do I have to drink the entire cup of Kool Aid? Don't get honesty mixed up with negativity or else you'll wind up like on of them.

 

Oh.

 

So Nix has definitively failed?

 

Last I checked he was still the decision maker on the team and judgement of his tenure is far from complete.

 

This again harkens back to your lack of fairness and balance.

 

Who hired Marrone?

 

And I've been here a lot longer than iommi and I can speak to your tendencies.

[thebandit27]

The fact that you brought up Maryland and Va Tech says all you know about CFB. Last Year was Va Tech's worst season in 15 years. They had to win their last game of the year to be bowl eligible. Maryland literally lost every QB on the roster and had a starting LB playing QB at the year's end. You can't be serious.

 

Do you remember the OU game in '11? EJ was playing horribly and got hurt. The backup Clint Trickett came in and outplayed EJ tying the game in the 4th.

 

The rest of your "stats' are laughably funny. Look at what those defenses do outside of the ACC. That ND team was a 5 loss team that they beat and started 3 freshman (Floyd, Tuitt, Nix) on the DL. That being said, that was EJ's best game that year so I'll give you one.

 

Please stat boy, I could make a case that Fitz was accurate in '11 by his comp%. But I chose to watch the games and realized that it was a total fluke.

 

It's always nice when someone is proven wrong and they resort to insults...it shows that the quality of their argument is poor.

 

Virginia Tech's record last year is altogether immaterial to the discussion. Your claim was that EJ cannot perform against the best defenses he faces...Virginia Tech was the best D he faced in 2012, and he played very well, so, in short, you are wrong. Stats or no stats, your argument is incorrect. Don't get mad, get informed.

 

EJ played against the teams on his schedule. So far, the only response you had (aside from one of the cheesiest name-callings I've ever encountered) was to denigrate Notre Dame's defense and tell me that EJ didn't play well against Oklahoma in 2011 (which, if you actually read my post, you'd know I already mentioned...great detective work). And your argument about Notre Dame isn't even a salient point, considering that they were 8-4 before facing FSU in the Champs Sports Bowl, including going 1-1 against the only ranked teams they faced (the one win being a 31-13 blowout of Michigan State; the 1 loss coming to #6 Stanford and Andrew Luck). They also scored wins that season over a Pitt team that beat the only ranked team they faced (South Florida) and a much tougher than advertised Wake Forest squad (that both defeated FSU and played #9 Clemson to a 3-point loss).

 

The point is, you can chastise the stats all you want, but they tell the story you don't want to hear: EJ played well against the best defenses he faced far more often than he didn't. Those of us that have watched him play knew this without looking at the numbers; although it is quite convenient that they back up the point quite nicely.

[Last Guy on the Bench]

Fair but what am I supposed to base my opinions on? Defenses like WF, Maryland and USF? Or his tougher games like OU and UF? That's how CFB goes, you might play 3-4 good teams per year and the rest are against very average comp.

 

To me, great QBs will their team to wins. I've watched football for a long time and we've all seen guys like Brady and Manning do this even when the rest of the team doesn't have it. Not sure how they do it but it's an intangible that very few QBs have. That's why I loved R WIlson. The effect he had on Wisky in '11 should have won him the Heisman. He transformed that team. I've never seen that out of EJ.

 

Again, I just think it's tone. If your opinion is that EJ isn't Brady, Manning, or Wilson, you offer a good (though not certain) argument. But asserting that he will never win a game by himself based on a very small number of games feels like a stretch. You just don't really seem that interested in discussion about this. If your mind is mind up, well OK. I'm just not sure why anyone's mind should be made up at this point. I do appreciate your insight, though.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Last Guy on the Bench

[iommi]

Well it's definitely not a case of revisionist history because I'm saying before hand. You have 113 posts so you probably haven't been here for too long. Go ahead and read through history, I' don't say I told ya so and never have.....well maybe with Nix (but come on, are people that blind?!?) I was on the board the day Marrone got hired saying that I loved the hire and was getting slammed for it so is that good enough or do I have to drink the entire cup of Kool Aid? Don't get honesty mixed up with negativity or else you'll wind up like on of them.

 

I don't agree with your opinion and I will leave it at that. I would also say that one shouldn't be judged by the numbers of one's posts but rather the quality of said posts. I have been a member since 2003.

[John Cocktosten]

Brady and Manning?

 

Certainly not in college which is what we're evaluating right now.

 

How clutch was Manning in college?

 

As usual JC, I find your comments to be backed by knowledge but not fair and balanced.

 

You act like a developing young player is never going to evolve beyond what you've already seen of him.

 

That's a total myth about Manning in college. He lost 3 games in the SEC his last 3 years at UT. They were all against one team. The late 90's UF teams were some of the best in the last 30 years of CFB. I'll take a 21-3 record against the SEC any day of the week. I believe he threw for close to 100 tds as well. If that's not clutch, what is?

 

He's essentailly a 4 year starter. How much developing is their left. I think it's a case of what you see is what you get with EJ because he's shown very little growth IMO. If he had a "great" progression, FSU would've been playing in the BCS championship game.

[thebandit27]

Well it's definitely not a case of revisionist history because I'm saying before hand. You have 113 posts so you probably haven't been here for too long. Go ahead and read through history, I' don't say I told ya so and never have.....well maybe with Nix (but come on, are people that blind?!?) I was on the board the day Marrone got hired saying that I loved the hire and was getting slammed for it so is that good enough or do I have to drink the entire cup of Kool Aid? Don't get honesty mixed up with negativity or else you'll wind up like on of them.

 

Honesty is not saying that a guy plays poorly against the best defenses he faces when it's completely untrue.

 

That's a total myth about Manning in college. He lost 3 games in the SEC his last 3 years at UT. They were all against one team. The late 90's UF teams were some of the best in the last 30 years of CFB. I'll take a 21-3 record against the SEC any day of the week. I believe he threw for close to 100 tds as well. If that's not clutch, what is?

 

He's essentailly a 4 year starter. How much developing is their left. I think it's a case of what you see is what you get with EJ because he's shown very little growth IMO. If he had a "great" progression, FSU would've been playing in the BCS championship game.

 

Just like RG3 got Baylor to the BCS Championship game, right?

 

You make some truly dizzying points.

[John Cocktosten]

It's always nice when someone is proven wrong and they resort to insults...it shows that the quality of their argument is poor.

 

Virginia Tech's record last year is altogether immaterial to the discussion. Your claim was that EJ cannot perform against the best defenses he faces...Virginia Tech was the best D he faced in 2012, and he played very well, so, in short, you are wrong. Stats or no stats, your argument is incorrect. Don't get mad, get informed.

 

EJ played against the teams on his schedule. So far, the only response you had (aside from one of the cheesiest name-callings I've ever encountered) was to denigrate Notre Dame's defense and tell me that EJ didn't play well against Oklahoma in 2011 (which, if you actually read my post, you'd know I already mentioned...great detective work). And your argument about Notre Dame isn't even a salient point, considering that they were 8-4 before facing FSU in the Champs Sports Bowl, including going 1-1 against the only ranked teams they faced (the one win being a 31-13 blowout of Michigan State; the 1 loss coming to #6 Stanford and Andrew Luck). They also scored wins that season over a Pitt team that beat the only ranked team they faced (South Florida) and a much tougher than advertised Wake Forest squad (that both defeated FSU and played #9 Clemson to a 3-point loss).

 

The point is, you can chastise the stats all you want, but they tell the story you don't want to hear: EJ played well against the best defenses he faced far more often than he didn't. Those of us that have watched him play knew this without looking at the numbers; although it is quite convenient that they back up the point quite nicely.

 

Where are the insults and cheesey name calling? A little sensitive?

 

If you watched CFB, which it's pretty clear that you just read box scores, you'd know that Va Tech got slammed by the good offensive teams last year. It's easy to shutout Austin Peay or Bowling Green. But let's look drill down a bit. Clemson, Miami, UNC and Pitt rolled up at least 30. Why am I even defending this. Va Tech had their worst team in 15 years. This is a fact. That defense was terrible. They gave up 41 to DUKE for god sakes!

 

How is pointing out that ND '11 team was completely different than this years team (albeit very overrated) denigrating? You are just a touch too sensitive.

 

And pointing out wins over Wake Freeking Forest, Pitt and South Florida? Wow.....Just stop already. Btw, What happened to Maryland's steel curtain?

[Doc]

It wasn't a good game for FSU all-around. Florida's offense was ranked 97th in yards (334 YPG) and 78th in points (26.5 PPG), but FSU's top-ranked defense allowed 394 yards and 37 points, including 24 in the 4th quarter, and let the Gators hold the ball for 22 minutes in the 1st half alone. At home, no less. True Manuel made some bad decisions, but he was under constant pressure from the get-go and probably let that rattle him some. His 3 INT's didn't even really kill them since it gave Florida the ball at their 12, 24, and 30 yard lines, and they had the lead going into that 4th quarter. And Jimbo fisher called a questionable game.

[John Cocktosten]

Honesty is not saying that a guy plays poorly against the best defenses he faces when it's completely untrue.

 

Just like RG3 got Baylor to the BCS Championship game, right?

 

You make some truly dizzying points.

 

"best defenses" he played was Florida. Florida had more defensive players drafted in the first 3 rounds than the "great defenses" of Va Tech and Maryland. Are you kidding me right now? ACC's best defenses are average at best. Look at the OOC results.

 

RG3 put up 5 TDs against every team he played regardless of comp. Here's the link, go for it.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/schedule/_/id/239/year/2011/baylor-bears

 

What RG3 didn't play with was a defense full of NFL players. Just facts that I'm throwing out there. It makes the game a bit tougher when your defense routinely is giving up 40-50 points like Baylor s did . No?

 

Thanks.

[GG]

Well it's definitely not a case of revisionist history because I'm saying before hand. You have 113 posts so you probably haven't been here for too long. Go ahead and read through history, I' don't say I told ya so and never have.....well maybe with Nix (but come on, are people that blind?!?) I was on the board the day Marrone got hired saying that I loved the hire and was getting slammed for it so is that good enough or do I have to drink the entire cup of Kool Aid? Don't get honesty mixed up with negativity or else you'll wind up like on of them.

 

What your criticism of EJ hasn't shown is how the other 2013 QB classmates did. There's a reason why there was only one QB drafted in first round, and there are many questions about all of them. Nothing that's come out since the draft is conclusive that EJ was not the best QB prospect in this draft. So if your beef is that Bills took him too high at #16, that's what you should be arguing. But there are certainly enough hints from league personnel that there's no way that EJ would have lasted to the #41 pick.

[John Cocktosten]

Oh.

 

So Nix has definitively failed?

 

Last I checked he was still the decision maker on the team and judgement of his tenure is far from complete.

 

This again harkens back to your lack of fairness and balance.

 

Who hired Marrone?

 

And I've been here a lot longer than iommi and I can speak to your tendencies.

 

See, even I can teach you something.

 

Yes, Nix has failed and if he'd been with another organization that cares about winning he'd be gone. Actually, he would've never been hired in the first place. We can go point by point about why Nix has been horrible but I'll wrap it all up and save time by saying look at the record. Remember the baby?

I really don't see how that's not fair. My tendencies are fair, they just don't fall in line with the "Fan at all costs" mentality.

 

The Marrone pick was a great hire to me.

 

What your criticism of EJ hasn't shown is how the other 2013 QB classmates did. There's a reason why there was only one QB drafted in first round, and there are many questions about all of them. Nothing that's come out since the draft is conclusive that EJ was not the best QB prospect in this draft. So if your beef is that Bills took him too high at #16, that's what you should be arguing. But there are certainly enough hints from league personnel that there's no way that EJ would have lasted to the #41 pick.

 

Isn't that implied?

 

I didn't like any of the Qbs but you had to grab one. But going after him at #16 is just the Bills going all last 14 years on everybody. I say time has already told us a lot about EJ. Most say time will tell.

[Kelly the Dog]

See, even I can teach you something.

 

Yes, Nix has failed and if he'd been with another organization that cares about winning he'd be gone. Actually, he would've never been hired in the first place. We can go point by point about why Nix has been horrible but I'll wrap it all up and save time by saying look at the record. Remember the baby?

I really don't see how that's not fair. My tendencies are fair, they just don't fall in line with the "Fan at all costs" mentality.

 

The Marrone pick was a great hire to me.

 

 

 

Isn't that implied?

 

I didn't like any of the Qbs but you had to grab one. But going after him at #16 is just the Bills going all last 14 years on everybody. I say time has already told us a lot about EJ. Most say time will tell.

Where has he failed with his first round picks?