Black Man's View on Obama

[DC Tom]

oh lord. living in this time where just about everything is interpreted as racist devalues the disgusting real racism like you just mentioned

 

That's the key point, there.

 

And it's more a feature of a general American trend to hyperbole. If everyone's a "hero" or "victim" or "racist" or "idiot" or whatever word you choose...then what real meaning can the word actually have?

[Juror#8]

oh lord. living in this time where just about everything is interpreted as racist devalues the disgusting real racism like you just mentioned

 

i grew up deep in the heart of redneck crackerland and racism was real bad - almost constant and very overt. now its a ton better, but when i go back to my hometown (wilson) i still see quite a bit of racism. at least most of the die hards are sheepish about it, but not all

 

i have a cousin who is still a proud racist. its weird too, bc hes generally a very nice guy, willing to help you out, wont take money when he spends several hours fixing your car, stuff like that. but then in the middle of a party he will proudly proclaim something like 'i dont drink gin cuz thats a ni99er drink.' most everybody around him will say oh shut up you ignorant fool (which in and of itself is different than it used to be where most everybody would agree and those who didnt would say nuthin, except me). but he will just stand there beaming, 'yep if ni99ers like it then i hate it'. hard to figure out how someone that cool otherwise can be such a total dick and be proud of it

 

It's not just you.

 

Racism is a strange thing. It doesn't really abide any traditional notions of "hate." People try to simplify it, but it's so much more complex than that.

 

A few years ago I would drive to Morgantown where my friend attended graduate school. There was a guy there that would talk my ear off about politics. He was a good dude. He knew what he was talking about. I appreciated the conversation.

 

Then during one party, he told me that his girlfriend left him "for some ni99er rooster." He was dejected and I don't think he realized what he said. I continued talking with him about "more fish in the sea," and random political stuff. I just acted as if the comment was never made.

 

A few days later, I mentioned it to my friend Danielle. She told me that he said those things often and that she was surprised that he and I got along so well.

 

Anyway, I think that "racism" relies on varying degrees of ignorance of and unfamiliarity with specific individuals within that racial classification. That way, the "racist" can rely on stereotypes and anecdotes as their archetype for that entire group.

 

My first roomate at UVA was the same way. He admitted to me that he felt uncomfortable around minorities - he was from Flinstone, MD and their were no black people there. His apprehension was due to lack of familiarity. He would make comments that were very stereotypical. But he, too, is a good guy. We email weekly. He's published and has done talking head stuff on History Channel. He is also a History professor at a well known state university. Because of his admitted apprehension, that kinda makes me worry.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Juror#8

[Azalin]

Anyway, I think that "racism" relies on varying degrees of ignorance of and unfamiliarity with specific individuals within that racial classification. That way, the "racist" can rely on stereotypes and anecdotes as their archetype for that entire group.

'ignorance' is the key word, and ironically so because it's ignorance that is actually learned. I've never heard of anyone being a 'born racist'....someone has to be taught to be that ignorant.

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

 

I have one American flag, one Naval Jack (learned something new). I do not fly the Naval Jack or display it, but did so in Ohio.

 

What was the difference between the Gadsden flag and the naval jack. Did one evolve from the other?

[TheMadCap]

What was the difference between the Gadsden flag and the naval jack. Did one evolve from the other?

 

I think we are talking about two different flags entirely.

 

The Gadsden flag is from the colonial/revolutionary era. Its a coiled snake on a yellow field with "Dont Tread on Me".

 

 

 

The current incarnation of the Confederate flag that most people associate with the "rebel flag" or Stars n Bars (incorrectly) is a the classic blue cross/x with white stars on a red field. This was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (Square), but a rectangular form (more like the modern version) was used as the Confederate Naval Jack.

 

The first national flag of the Confederacy is more correctly called the "Stars and Bars', and has three stripes (red, white, then red) with a blue field of 13 stars in a circle. This proved confusing on the battle field, so the AoNV adopted the square battle flag (rebel flag). The second flag of the Confederacy was a white flag with a small "rebel flag" in the corner. This didn't work because it was thought it looked too much like a "white flag of surrender" which obviously was unacceptable. The solution was to place a vertical red stripe on the far right hand side of the 2nd flag, and this was refered to as the "blood stained banner".

 

It is all very confusing...

Edited March 21, 2013 by TheMadCap

[boyst]

I think we are talking about two different flags entirely.

 

The Gadsden flag is from the colonial/revolutionary era. Its a coiled snake on a yellow field with "Dont Tread on Me".

 

 

 

The current incarnation of the Confederate flag that most people associate with the "rebel flag" or Stars n Bars (incorrectly) is a the classic blue cross/x with white stars on a red field. This was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (Square), but a rectangular form (more like the modern version) was used as the Confederate Naval Jack.

 

The first national flag of the Confederacy is more correctly called the "Stars and Bars', and has three stripes (red, white, then red) with a blue field of 13 stars in a circle. This proved confusing on the battle field, so the AoNV adopted the square battle flag (rebel flag). The second flag of the Confederacy was a white flag with a small "rebel flag" in the corner. This didn't work because it was thought it looked too much like a "white flag of surrender" which obviously was unacceptable. The solution was to place a vertical red stripe on the far right hand side of the 2nd flag, and this was refered to as the "blood stained banner".

 

It is all very confusing...

The War of Northern Aggression is amazing.

 

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South.

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

No I was trying to ask how the Gadsden don't tread on me flag was related to the union jack don't tread on me.

[Nanker]

1st US Naval Union Jack.

"a 19th-century mistake based on an erroneous 1776 engraving". WikiLinkyThingy

[We Come In Peace]

What I don't get is Souther folks who insist on flying the Navel Jack and claiming " Southern Heritage". I get that you feel some pride and honor in your ancestry, but why use a symbol that has been, sadly, high jacked by idiots, rednecks, and racists?

It's a question I've asked many times myself. I think the answer depends on the person flying the flag but it's usually one of these two choices:

 

1. The person is completely ignorant of history, even their own culture that they're allegedly promoting.

 

or (and I've found this to be more common)

 

2. The person is trying to make a statement/provoke outrage. Kind of like the rebelling teenager who wears the t-shirt with the inappropriate slogan on it.

[TakeYouToTasker]

It's a question I've asked many times myself. I think the answer depends on the person flying the flag but it's usually one of these two choices:

 

1. The person is completely ignorant of history, even their own culture that they're allegedly promoting.

 

or (and I've found this to be more common)

 

2. The person is trying to make a statement/provoke outrage. Kind of like the rebelling teenager who wears the t-shirt with the inappropriate slogan on it.

Or, the person rejects what you are projecting on to them, and is a genuine believer in state supremacy and is proud of their heritage.

[RkFast]

Good point.

 

Driving on I-68 around Frostburg last weekend I saw a bumper sticker that said "Don't Renig in 2012." And to think that there are people who really believe that all disagreements with the President is entirely race-neutral.

 

I tried to make eye contact with the driver. He glanced at me and quickly looked forward.

 

What's the point of having such an offensive bumper sticker if you're not going to display it confidently?

You don't understand why a guy driving didn't have the time to have a stare down with you? I think you think too much of yourself. But of yeah.....bumper stickers....Google Anti Bush ones. Then get back to me about being "offensive."

[We Come In Peace]

Or, the person rejects what you are projecting on to them, and is a genuine believer in state supremacy and is proud of their heritage.

Or, you could read what I wrote instead of projecting your own issues onto me...

[Juror#8]

You don't understand why a guy driving didn't have the time to have a stare down with you? I think you think too much of yourself. But of yeah.....bumper stickers....Google Anti Bush ones. Then get back to me about being "offensive."

 

He initially very clearly looked at me - almost furtively. He noticed me and very quickly looked away so as not to make eye contact. Then he made it a point to stare directly ahead, not looking over again. You know what I'm talking about.

 

That is less about proper driving mechanics and more about apprehension because he likely assumed that I took some exception to his bumpers sticker.

 

What does that have to do with me and how I think of myself? I'm not taking any credit here. I'm not saying that he was scared of me. I'm saying that he made it a point to distance himself from any reaction, that someone likely to be the most intimately affected by the substance of the speech, could have had.

 

I support his 1st Amendment right to articulate his political speech - even in that kind of backwards, under-developed,counter-intellectual and bigoted fashion. I think that those contrarian viewpoints are necessary for a robust, uninhibited, and wide open "marketplace of ideas." I'm all kinds of John Stuart Mill when it comes to speech. I wanted to give the guy a sardonic thumbs up - let him know that he had support from those of the negro persuasion. I wasn't gonna go H.A.M. on him. But he probably thought that I was.

 

But what do anti-Bush bumper stickers have to do with racist, anti-Obama bumper stickers?

 

Were bumper stickers about Bush calculated to be offensive to an entire race and class of people?

 

Your answer to the above question notwithstanding, is one ok, because the other exists?

 

Are your ethics that situational?

[Maury Ballstein]

Points awarded for juror 8 in this case vs everyones favorite cyclist....extra credit for the use of sardonic in the post.

 

 

Very nice

Edited March 25, 2013 by Ryan L Billz

[TakeYouToTasker]

Or, you could read what I wrote instead of projecting your own issues onto me...

Here's the thing, I did; and I found your views on this particular issue to be more than a bit myopic.

[K-9]

Whenever I want a black man's opinion on Obama, I call Dave in Elma.

[OCinBuffalo]

i have a cousin who is still a proud racist. its weird too, bc hes generally a very nice guy, willing to help you out, wont take money when he spends several hours fixing your car, stuff like that. but then in the middle of a party he will proudly proclaim something like 'i dont drink gin cuz thats a ni99er drink.' most everybody around him will say oh shut up you ignorant fool (which in and of itself is different than it used to be where most everybody would agree and those who didnt would say nuthin, except me). but he will just stand there beaming, 'yep if ni99ers like it then i hate it'. hard to figure out how someone that cool otherwise can be such a total dick and be proud of it

It's affectation. Nothing more. Principles, like "help your neighbor", "don't kill", etc. are in us all. Values, OTOH, are taught. Your cousin appears to be a "good person" because he is not a sociopath, and therefore his priniciples are intact. However, his learned values are F'ed. It's no different than: how can a guy save a kid from a shark, but get fired? The only reason he was on the beach in the first place was because he lied about needing medical leave. Sound principles, but, F'ed up "the government/my company owes me" values.

 

Two similar points on this:

 

1. I had a run of 2 years where most of my projects were in the South, and, many here know of my prediliction towards drunken women-chasing. One Saturday afternoon I ended up at a college football tailgate, and as tailgates go, I sorta tripped and fell and ended up with this girl in my AO, and things were clearly going in the right direction. She was hot, and I don't mean beer google hot. I mean blazing, "I better not f'ing stutter" hot. And, she was sweet. I had a internal commentary going along the lines of "you lucky bastard, don't say anything stupid, dammit" and then, out of nowhere, the group's attention was drawn to these dudes a few cars away were playing football and having a good time. I say dudes, because in my mind that's what I saw: a bunch of cocky college kids drinking, cooking and talking sh_t. I saw basically: myself, only a few years prior. Seemingly out of nowhere she says: "Oh good lord, why the hell did we have to end up by the ni99ers? Y'all better make sure you lock your cars so they don't get tempted. Y'all know they can't help themselves." Or something to that effect.

 

Everything started to change for me. I mean, I could still see "hot" and "sweet", but it wasn't the same. Running commentary "yeah, hot, but.....dammit". I had to tank it. It was idiotic and the client guys I was with couldn't believe it, and probably still don't, but still, I had to tank it. You all know: right is right for me, and that wasn't right. One guy said later: "So I guess that's what it's like being a yankee, huh?" What else? I answered "Yep".

 

2. Years later, I was in an elevator with 3 client guys, we stopped at a floor and picked up a black woman. I didn't even notice her in general, or her race, as I was thinking about my job and the meeting we were all headed towards at the top floor. She gets off, and one guys says: "Jesus, at which point do we say 'we've hired our quota'"? The one guy laughed, but, interestingly, the other guy said "What the hell? I've worked with her, and she knows the job. I don't want to hear that kind of talk around here. If for no other reason than it exposes us to a lawsuit, you moron". As the consultant in that group, my job is to STFU and say nothing. The rule is: We don't talk back to clients. But, it was great that the 3rd guy didn't allow the bad behavior to continue, and I told him so privately.

 

That's the point: real racism has to get fixed by white guys/girls, in the elevator, when nobody else is looking.

 

It's not going to get fixed by militant activists crying racist at everything they see. or by tools like Chris Matthews trying to gain political points by treating racism as a commodity to be traded.

[OCinBuffalo]

He initially very clearly looked at me - almost furtively. He noticed me and very quickly looked away so as not to make eye contact. Then he made it a point to stare directly ahead, not looking over again. You know what I'm talking about.

 

That is less about proper driving mechanics and more about apprehension because he likely assumed that I took some exception to his bumpers sticker.

 

What does that have to do with me and how I think of myself? I'm not taking any credit here. I'm not saying that he was scared of me. I'm saying that he made it a point to distance himself from any reaction, that someone likely to be the most intimately affected by the substance of the speech, could have had.

 

I support his 1st Amendment right to articulate his political speech - even in that kind of backwards, under-developed,counter-intellectual and bigoted fashion. I think that those contrarian viewpoints are necessary for a robust, uninhibited, and wide open "marketplace of ideas." I'm all kinds of John Stuart Mill when it comes to speech. I wanted to give the guy a sardonic thumbs up - let him know that he had support from those of the negro persuasion. I wasn't gonna go H.A.M. on him. But he probably thought that I was.

 

But what do anti-Bush bumper stickers have to do with racist, anti-Obama bumper stickers?

 

Were bumper stickers about Bush calculated to be offensive to an entire race and class of people?

 

Your answer to the above question notwithstanding, is one ok, because the other exists?

 

Are your ethics that situational?

Exactly.

 

I am tired as hell of "but...but...but...Billy did this bad thing over here, so you can't punish me unless you punish Billy too."

 

This all started with Bill Clinton. Clinton should have done the right thing and resigned. Democrats should have done the right thing and demanded he resign.

 

Instead, they CHOSE to make it into a political argument, like children, instead of facing the moral consequences, like adults.

 

Ever since, unless you can get video/audio evidence, both sides have chosen to make every issue political and ignore the moral implications. There is no shame, and nobody around to even create/hold the standard that defines shameful behavior. Asking someone "have you no shame, sir?" today, is a pointless exercise.

[3rdnlng]

It's affectation. Nothing more. Principles, like "help your neighbor", "don't kill", etc. are in us all. Values, OTOH, are taught. Your cousin appears to be a "good person" because he is not a sociopath, and therefore his priniciples are intact. However, his learned values are F'ed. It's no different than: how can a guy save a kid from a shark, but get fired? The only reason he was on the beach in the first place was because he lied about needing medical leave. Sound principles, but, F'ed up "the government/my company owes me" values.

 

Two similar points on this:

 

1. I had a run of 2 years where most of my projects were in the South, and, many here know of my prediliction towards drunken women-chasing. One Saturday afternoon I ended up at a college football tailgate, and as tailgates go, I sorta tripped and fell and ended up with this girl in my AO, and things were clearly going in the right direction. She was hot, and I don't mean beer google hot. I mean blazing, "I better not f'ing stutter" hot. And, she was sweet. I had a internal commentary going along the lines of "you lucky bastard, don't say anything stupid, dammit" and then, out of nowhere, the group's attention was drawn to these dudes a few cars away were playing football and having a good time. I say dudes, because in my mind that's what I saw: a bunch of cocky college kids drinking, cooking and talking sh_t. I saw basically: myself, only a few years prior. Seemingly out of nowhere she says: "Oh good lord, why the hell did we have to end up by the ni99ers? Y'all better make sure you lock your cars so they don't get tempted. Y'all know they can't help themselves." Or something to that effect.

 

Everything started to change for me. I mean, I could still see "hot" and "sweet", but it wasn't the same. Running commentary "yeah, hot, but.....dammit". I had to tank it. It was idiotic and the client guys I was with couldn't believe it, and probably still don't, but still, I had to tank it. You all know: right is right for me, and that wasn't right. One guy said later: "So I guess that's what it's like being a yankee, huh?" What else? I answered "Yep".

 

2. Years later, I was in an elevator with 3 client guys, we stopped at a floor and picked up a black woman. I didn't even notice her in general, or her race, as I was thinking about my job and the meeting we were all headed towards at the top floor. She gets off, and one guys says: "Jesus, at which point do we say 'we've hired our quota'"? The one guy laughed, but, interestingly, the other guy said "What the hell? I've worked with her, and she knows the job. I don't want to hear that kind of talk around here. If for no other reason than it exposes us to a lawsuit, you moron". As the consultant in that group, my job is to STFU and say nothing. The rule is: We don't talk back to clients. But, it was great that the 3rd guy didn't allow the bad behavior to continue, and I told him so privately.

 

That's the point: real racism has to get fixed by black and white guys/girls, in the elevator, when nobody else is looking.

 

It's not going to get fixed by militant activists crying racist at everything they see. or by tools like Chris Matthews trying to gain political points by treating racism as a commodity to be traded.

 

Fixed.

[Juror#8]

Exactly.

 

I am tired as hell of "but...but...but...Billy did this bad thing over here, so you can't punish me unless you punish Billy too."

 

This all started with Bill Clinton. Clinton should have done the right thing and resigned. Democrats should have done the right thing and demanded he resign.

 

Instead, they CHOSE to make it into a political argument, like children, instead of facing the moral consequences, like adults.

 

Ever since, unless you can get video/audio evidence, both sides have chosen to make every issue political and ignore the moral implications. There is no shame, and nobody around to even create/hold the standard that defines shameful behavior. Asking someone "have you no shame, sir?" today, is a pointless exercise.

 

I agree with you 100%

 

I think that Clinton should have resigned because he became a distraction to the country.

 

But in general, and solely in a vaccuum, do you think that moral indiscretions should be a disqualifier for public office (taking the his lie under oath out of the equation)?

 

Edit: My 1000th post fully agreed with OC. This portends great things to come.

 

It's affectation. Nothing more. Principles, like "help your neighbor", "don't kill", etc. are in us all. Values, OTOH, are taught. Your cousin appears to be a "good person" because he is not a sociopath, and therefore his priniciples are intact. However, his learned values are F'ed. It's no different than: how can a guy save a kid from a shark, but get fired? The only reason he was on the beach in the first place was because he lied about needing medical leave. Sound principles, but, F'ed up "the government/my company owes me" values.

 

Two similar points on this:

 

1. I had a run of 2 years where most of my projects were in the South, and, many here know of my prediliction towards drunken women-chasing. One Saturday afternoon I ended up at a college football tailgate, and as tailgates go, I sorta tripped and fell and ended up with this girl in my AO, and things were clearly going in the right direction. She was hot, and I don't mean beer google hot. I mean blazing, "I better not f'ing stutter" hot. And, she was sweet. I had a internal commentary going along the lines of "you lucky bastard, don't say anything stupid, dammit" and then, out of nowhere, the group's attention was drawn to these dudes a few cars away were playing football and having a good time. I say dudes, because in my mind that's what I saw: a bunch of cocky college kids drinking, cooking and talking sh_t. I saw basically: myself, only a few years prior. Seemingly out of nowhere she says: "Oh good lord, why the hell did we have to end up by the ni99ers? Y'all better make sure you lock your cars so they don't get tempted. Y'all know they can't help themselves." Or something to that effect.

 

Everything started to change for me. I mean, I could still see "hot" and "sweet", but it wasn't the same. Running commentary "yeah, hot, but.....dammit". I had to tank it. It was idiotic and the client guys I was with couldn't believe it, and probably still don't, but still, I had to tank it. You all know: right is right for me, and that wasn't right. One guy said later: "So I guess that's what it's like being a yankee, huh?" What else? I answered "Yep".

 

There was a time that I may have still worn it out. That could have made for an interesting role playing scenario.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Juror#8