How much talent do the Bills actually have?

[Big Turk]

 

Except for QB, WR, TE, DE, LB, and K, I agree with you.

Colts are not better at TE...Chandler is better than who they got...

 

Big difference is the majority of our talent is young while theirs is old and getting older...

 

Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, Vinatieri are all going to start declining more and more each year

Edited January 8, 2013 by matter2003

[JPS]

Colts are not better at TE...Chandler is better than who they got...

 

Big difference is the majority of our talent is young while theirs is old and getting older...

 

Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, Vinatieri are all going to start declining more and more each year

Wow. You'd take Chandler over Coby Fleener and Dwayne Allen? If you truly believe that, there's no use discussing the rest. The QB IS important. Vitally important. But Payton won (I think) 3 games and Aikman won 1 game in year one. The 11-5 Colts are so more talented than the Bills it's ridiculous.

[Dibs]

Wow. You'd take Chandler over Coby Fleener and Dwayne Allen? If you truly believe that, there's no use discussing the rest. The QB IS important. Vitally important. But Payton won (I think) 3 games and Aikman won 1 game in year one. The 11-5 Colts are so more talented than the Bills it's ridiculous.

I think you are underestimating the value of a talented QB.

Apart from QB you are saying they have a better receiving corp(including TEs), better LBs & a better Kicker.....you were incorrect about DE.

 

Our Defense was better...

Colts D ranked 26th(Bills 22nd)

Colts pass D ranked 21st(Bills 10th)

Colts run D ranked 29th(Bills 31st)

 

...but they had a much better passing game.

Colts O ranked 10th(Bills 19th)

Colts pass O ranked 7th(Bills 25th)

Colts run O ranked 22nd(Bills 6th)

 

Ridiculously better? That's ridiculous!

[JPS]

I think you are underestimating the value of a talented QB.

Apart from QB you are saying they have a better receiving corp(including TEs), better LBs & a better Kicker.....you were incorrect about DE.

 

Our Defense was better...

Colts D ranked 26th(Bills 22nd)

Colts pass D ranked 21st(Bills 10th)

Colts run D ranked 29th(Bills 31st)

 

...but they had a much better passing game.

Colts O ranked 10th(Bills 19th)

Colts pass O ranked 7th(Bills 25th)

Colts run O ranked 22nd(Bills 6th)

 

Ridiculously better? That's ridiculous!

The Colts were 11-5

 

The Bills were 6-10.

 

I'm done here.

[Dibs]

The Colts were 11-5

 

The Bills were 6-10.

 

I'm done here.

 

QUARTERBACK!!!!!!!

 

You were arguing the talent of their roster compared to ours.

You obviously started to see that, if one takes away the QB disparity, then perhaps their roster is not that much better than ours....if indeed better at all.

....so you resorted to listing win-loss records. Good argument.

 

....and that ridiculously better Colts roster won only 2 games last year.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Dibs

[djp14150]

Success in the league is all about attitude and emotion plus some luck. Indy had the emotion plus a frienfdlier schedule which allowed them to gain confidence in the season.

 

Buffalo lost 3 games in the final minute...one when they were on offense...the other 2 when on defense. The won those games te attitude in the team is very different.

 

This likely would have affeted how they played at Miami, Indy, and in Toronto (where they checked out).

They easily coulkd have been 10-6 with wins against St Louis, New England, Tennesee and either Indy or Miami....if they did they would have been a wild card team in the playoffs.

[Big Turk]

 

So you're saying that the 6-10 Bills have more talent than the 11-5 colts at RB, OT, OG, C, DT, CB, S, P, KR & PR?

.....are their DEs better than ours? Freeney is a LB now.

 

Seems to me that matter2003 might have had a decent point about the importance of QB.

 

They were 11-5 in name only...they finished 5 games higher than their expected win total based on advanced stats and were very lucky in a lot of games...I mean they gave up 350+ yards rushing and almost 600 yards to the Chiefs but only 13 points...we did that against San Fran and new england gave up 45 and 52...

 

Indy got just about every break imagineable the entire year...their actual estimated win total of 6 is basically the same as the Bills...

 

I am predicting the Colts are a better team than this year with a worse record as virtually all teams regress to the mean year over year...8-8 or 9-7 is about right for them, which is a 2 or 3 game improvement over their expected record...

[Big Turk]

 

The Colts were 11-5

 

The Bills were 6-10.

 

I'm done here.

Aah, but there is a lesson to be learned on how records can lie in some cases. Advanced statistics show this Colts team, as well as this years Falcons teams are not as good as they appear. Colts should have 6 wins, Falcons 9. Almost all other teams are pretty dead on or under their expected win totals. This shows a few things...one there are unexplainable "lucky" teams every so often...ones that seem to get all the breaks in close games during a year. Two, those teams fall back to the league average in subsequent years meaning the Colts will likely be a better team next year with a worse record

Edited January 8, 2013 by matter2003

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I don't evaluate coaches so much on their win-loss records but on what they did with the talent the players they were given.

 

One of the things that dismayed me about Chan was that I thought the 2012 Bills, with average coaching, should have achieved more than 6 wins. I thought the defense, in particular, under-performed. I remember Bills squads in the past that were decimated by injury that didn't give up as many points as this D did. The offense had its share of disappointments, too.

 

But maybe I'm overrating the players and underrating the job done by Gailey and Wanny. Maybe the coaches just didn't have enough talent to field on game day. Maybe the Bills weren't out-coached as much as they were out-played.

 

So what do you guys think? Does Marrone have enough toys to play with?

 

No he does not.

 

We have one star on offense in Spiller (though the line is good) and some good and bad on Defense. Nix has to do a lot better with the latter round picks.

[T master]

Fine but what is the actual evidence the Bills have all this talent and it's just being misused?

 

Last 2 years Bills offensive line has had very low sacks allowed , WR SJ & Scott chandler SJ 3 consecutive 1000 yards seasons despite injuries though out the season, Chandler equaled TD catches by the franchise best TE, CJ was running at a historic pace avg. for this year (keep in my in a some what limited roll) 6 YPC avg for the season, Byrd very solid player according to the NFL Experts, Mario although lack luster at times 10 sacks, K. Williams 5 sacks on a bad leg, L Mckelvin lead the league in yards per return on punts, at QB a guy that was less than stellar but numbers wise did well so imagine if we can get a guy likea Taj Boyd or (insert name here) that has a better QB performance.

 

Young players showing up S. Gilmore coming of age, R.Brooks showing a bit of upside still needs to learn, Carrington being a beast in extra points blocked & just showing better in his play on D ... Dareus i think will be better after his experience this year..

 

So does this answer some of this question ?? It does for me !!

Edited January 8, 2013 by T master

[JPS]

QUARTERBACK!!!!!!!

 

You were arguing the talent of their roster compared to ours.

You obviously started to see that, if one takes away the QB disparity, then perhaps their roster is not that much better than ours....if indeed better at all.

....so you resorted to listing win-loss records. Good argument.

 

....and that ridiculously better Colts roster won only 2 games last year.

The 2012 Indianapolis Colts draft may go down as the best offensive draft of all time. They had Wayne and answered Luck with Fleener, Allen, Hilton and had lower round guys that made contributions (Brazill and Ballard). Add in 2 superb playmakers on defense, it not even close.

[djp14150]

They were 11-5 in name only...they finished 5 games higher than their expected win total based on advanced stats and were very lucky in a lot of games...I mean they gave up 350+ yards rushing and almost 600 yards to the Chiefs but only 13 points...we did that against San Fran and new england gave up 45 and 52...

 

Indy got just about every break imagineable the entire year...their actual estimated win total of 6 is basically the same as the Bills...

 

I am predicting the Colts are a better team than this year with a worse record as virtually all teams regress to the mean year over year...8-8 or 9-7 is about right for them, which is a 2 or 3 game improvement over their expected record...

 

Indy and Atlanta easily could have missed the playoffs...the teams won alot of close games that a play or two here or there would have meant a loss.

 

For Indy.....2 of their 11 wins were buy more than 7 pts.....Jacksonvile and Houston to end the year. Many of their wins they were tied/triling late in the 3rd or later.

 

For Atlanta....9 of their wins were by a score....many of them they were tied or behind late in the 3rd or later.

 

On the flip side is Clevelend...excluding their final 3 games where they seemed to check out of playing....they were 5-8...7 of those loses were close games they were in during the 4th quarter...the 8th they had a 14-0 lead on the Giants witht he ball in the redzone before a pick was thrown.

 

Carolina went 3-8 the first 11 games....other than games against the Broncos and Giants....they were very in those 6 loses and they easily could have been wins. 7 of their 9 loses were by 6 pts or less. Winning 3 of them they are in the playoffs.

[Dibs]

The 2012 Indianapolis Colts draft may go down as the best offensive draft of all time. They had Wayne and answered Luck with Fleener, Allen, Hilton and had lower round guys that made contributions (Brazill and Ballard). Add in 2 superb playmakers on defense, it not even close.

 

I totally agree that they had a great offensive draft. They improved at WR where we declined at WR due to injury, making them much better than us at WR. They passed us in TE productivity though not by much.

We however have much better RBs and a better OL as was shown throughout the season and reflected in the statistics.

We also had the better overall defense, though not by much. They have a much better LB corp but we have the much better DL and better DBs.

Their 2 defensive playmakers are trumped by our 3 on defense. You realize that Freeney got less sacks than Darius(not one of our playmakers) this season and has had reduced numbers every year since 2009?

 

If not for QB and coaching they likely would look to be at best on par with us in terms of talent and likely less talented with less future potential.

They have neglected their OL and until this year have had bad drafts with no good FA acquisitions in years.

 

Look at their roster. You could say that they are brimming with talent and potential in the passing game.....but they certainly are not brimming with talent across the board.

29th in run D....21st in pass D....22nd in run O.

They really are not as talented a team as you seem to think.

[Grondre Reed]

I didn't say not top 10, the post said they would start on any other team, simply isn't even close to being true. Spiller wouldn't start in Baltimore, Houston, Seattle and it would be a toss up in Kansas City, Washington and a couple others. Heck, until Fred got injured he didn't even start here.

 

WRONG... 2nd best back in the league...HANDS DOWN.

[ganesh]

Indy and Atlanta easily could have missed the playoffs...the teams won alot of close games that a play or two here or there would have meant a loss.

 

For Indy.....2 of their 11 wins were buy more than 7 pts.....Jacksonvile and Houston to end the year. Many of their wins they were tied/triling late in the 3rd or later.

 

 

The fact that they won those close games making the necessary plays at the end of the game is a testimony to their coaches preparing them to play a full 60 minutes and to the players for going out and actually making those plays. As Bills Parcells always said, your record is who you are.

[grog]

IMO, we need:

 

- QB 1, QB 2

- RB 2, RB 3 (Assuming FJ isn't FJ of 2011)

- WR 2, 3, 4 (I'm not really happy with any of our talent there. If Nelson comes back and regains form, I'll lower it to WR 2, 4)

- TE 1? 2 (We need a more relevant threat at the position)

- OL Depth in general, possibly a Guard or two

- LB (We need a whole sale change here, Barnett is decent, but getting older, everyone else stinks)

- CB 2, 3 (No talent outside of Gilmore, and Gilmore isn't even that good)

- SS (Wilson's over the hill, even if he's a good lockeroom guy)

- K/P - Both our kicker and our punter could be improved

 

Only area I think we are set? Defensive Line.

 

The problem with this team is keeping "locker room" guys like George Wilson in the game that can't play. Titans and Rams, two ints to seal WINS, stone hands reacts as though catching is being learned like a toddler learning to walk, not close on either attempt, how can you be a locker room guy if you can't make a play? My hunch is he is a "locker room" guy because he excuses his teammates from not making plays as well.....thus the acceptance of losing in the locker room........ Bring back the bickering bills!!!!!!!!

Edited January 9, 2013 by grog

[simpleman]

"T -average Glenn has a chance to be one of the best in the league, the other side is a revolving door of Hairston, Pears, Young = dime a dozen"

 

I agree. Why are so many blind to the fact that we are only 1 RT away from having a quality OL. Our needs include another T, whether it be a RT or a LT and shifting Glen to RT. The question of shifting would be up to the coaches, they need to use the talent we have to create the best line they can. I'm not recommending shifting him, just saying that if the coaches think if it needs to be done, I accept it.

Edited January 9, 2013 by simpleman

[truth on hold]

Lots, solid "A" or "B" grades for most units except

Linebackers. What overshadows this is lacking a quality player at the most important position on offense QB, and IMO on defense too, MLB the "QB" of the defense. Find a way to upgrade at those 2 spots and youd see a huge difference almost right away IMO

Edited January 9, 2013 by Joe_the_6_pack

[ganesh]

"T -average Glenn has a chance to be one of the best in the league, the other side is a revolving door of Hairston, Pears, Young = dime a dozen"

 

I agree. Why are so many blind to the fact that we are only 1 RT away from having a quality OL. Our needs include another T, whether it be a RT or a LT and shifting Glen to RT. The question of shifting would be up to the coaches, they need to use the talent we have to create the best line they can. I'm not recommending shifting him, just saying that if the coaches think if it needs to be done, I accept it.

We need to build depth on the OL. When Wood went down, Young was just ok and it showed in those losses. When Wood came back, he again had a dominating game.

 

The problem with this team is keeping "locker room" guys like George Wilson in the game that can't play. Titans and Rams, two ints to seal WINS, stone hands reacts as though catching is being learned like a toddler learning to walk, not close on either attempt, how can you be a locker room guy if you can't make a play? My hunch is he is a "locker room" guy because he excuses his teammates from not making plays as well.....thus the acceptance of losing in the locker room........ Bring back the bickering bills!!!!!!!!

+1. Wilson, Scott, Kelsay and Barnett need to go. In the name of Leaders, we are holding on to piss-poor players (and who free lance).

[bowery4]

"I really think that fans are ok at talent evaluation, that is why so many head coaches sit in the bleachers".

Marv Levy