GRONK SPIKE! Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I'm just throwing a hypothetical out, mutliple teams have filed complaints about noise being pumped in. I'm not sure how much of those claims are true, and I reconize that home field advantage is there, but this season in particular it seems like the effect is greater than normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 THANK YOU!!!!! Finally someone else read it! When the author lays out the odds of a team having 5 undefeated @ home seasons in 11 years! - clear as day - they still cheat. The league/owners/media all agreed to make this go away. Truthfully, it was more than enough to ruin the integrity of the game in the fans eyes.....and that means a massive loss of profits. Spread the word - I hope I live to see Hoodie/Brady and that arrogant Kraft completely stripped of every accolade they "earned". What are the odds a team would average 1 home loss a year for 5 seasons (Colts)? How are they still able to do it? What are they doing? Why have all of the other owners decided that its OK only for Kraft to "get away with" these things? What's Jerry Jones getting out of it? Why did all of the media "make it go away"? What's in it for them? Why haven't all of the players spoken against this--what's in it for them to keep quiet about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I'm just throwing a hypothetical out, mutliple teams have filed complaints about noise being pumped in. I'm not sure how much of those claims are true, and I reconize that home field advantage is there, but this season in particular it seems like the effect is greater than normal id be curious about the long term the numbers. its a hard place to travel to, and almost any travel out is loooong distance too. I know ive heard it mentioned as a noteworthy differential before. especially with the small 10 game sample size, i wouldnt suspect anything too fishy. for instance the green bay game makes it look worse than it is. rookie qb dealing with noise on the road. all kinds of stuff can skew it an extra couple of games in a short run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 The Patriots have the best road record in the NFL over the last however many years. That pretty much debunks allegations stemming from the success at home, they have success everywhere. Typical cheatriots fans replies: (1) Others may cheat so cheating by cheatriots is okay and a honorable thing to do. (2) Cheatriots' record after spygate means they didn't cheat. (Hello, being a good team and cheating aren't mutually exclusive. A top 5 student could cheat to become #1. Being a top 5 student doesn't mean he doesn't cheat.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filthymcnasty08 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 What are the odds a team would average 1 home loss a year for 5 seasons (Colts)? How are they still able to do it? What are they doing? Why have all of the other owners decided that its OK only for Kraft to "get away with" these things? What's Jerry Jones getting out of it? Why did all of the media "make it go away"? What's in it for them? Why haven't all of the players spoken against this--what's in it for them to keep quiet about it? Have you read the book? I would love to engage you in this conversation but, until you have read it, we will not be coming from the same place so it is fruitless. The colts had a fast track at home and a track star WR with the best field general of all time at QB, not a system fraud QB getting the answers to the test piped into his helmet. I do not know those odds for one loss seasons at home but I do know that, after 0 losses, the odds change drastically. zero losses 5 times is like 4 standard devitations away from the all-time averages. Basically unheard of. How are they still able to do it? I say read the book so you know how they were once able to do it before getting caught and admitting to doing it. From there you will see how they can possibly do whatever they would like in their home park. Owners have billion dollar valued assets that net them tens to hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue per year as that asset appreciates.....find me another investment that return like that. It all rests on the integrity of the game. Would you watch if you knew it was corrupt? Would you buy jerseys and pay big $ at stadiums? I would guess that there is a certain amount of this going on with all teams but the Pats brought it to a science and arrogantly I might add (no coordinators). Nobody wants to fuk with the golden goose so I think theres denial and willful ignorance going on. Just my thought. Or maybe they're on to an even more sophisticated method. Something reeks though. The media gets ridiculous money from advertising because football is the most watched thing on tv year in/out. If people lose faith, off go the tv's.....hows Bud Light going to know theyre hitting millions of men 21+ with their idiotic beer commercials if the ratings suck? Players are bound by certain media rules of their teams and the league. If Kurt Warner went out independantly to the press and screamed foul play after their SB loss, the media would just spin him as a maniac, he would get fined by the team and the league etc etc..... To do this right, you have to have an investigation and bring it about procedurally using the law. Arlan Spechter was doing that right after the Eagles SB loss to the Pats. I would guess all he was doing was making noise to get the league to wire him a monster amount of hush money to the Caymans.....but thats just me. In any event THEY DESTROYED THE EVIDENCE - and it was Goodell who ordered it destroyed. He saw the films and "Get rid of it" was his demand. Read the book - 3 SB's were played and decided while this system was in full effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Have you read the book? I would love to engage you in this conversation but, until you have read it, we will not be coming from the same place so it is fruitless. The colts had a fast track at home and a track star WR with the best field general of all time at QB, not a system fraud QB getting the answers to the test piped into his helmet. I do not know those odds for one loss seasons at home but I do know that, after 0 losses, the odds change drastically. zero losses 5 times is like 4 standard devitations away from the all-time averages. Basically unheard of. Owners have billion dollar valued assets that net them tens to hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue per year as that asset appreciates.....find me another investment that return like that. It all rests on the integrity of the game. Would you watch if you knew it was corrupt? Would you buy jerseys and pay big $ at stadiums? I would guess that there is a certain amount of this going on with all teams but the Pats brought it to a science and arrogantly I might add (no coordinators). Nobody wants to fuk with the golden goose so I think theres denial and willful ignorance going on. Just my thought. Or maybe they're on to an even more sophisticated method. Something reeks though. The media gets ridiculous money from advertising because football is the most watched thing on tv year in/out. If people lose faith, off go the tv's.....hows Bud Light going to know theyre hitting millions of men 21+ with their idiotic beer commercials if the ratings suck? Players are bound by certain media rules of their teams and the league. If Kurt Warner went out independantly to the press and screamed foul play after their SB loss, the media would just spin him as a maniac, he would get fined by the team and the league etc etc..... Let me just get this straight: You are saying that any team could have silenced a player (let alone a straight arrow like Warner) with the threat of a fine if he said another team cheated after a SB loss? Warner spoke out after Spygate about the possibility of the infamous "taped walk through", but he later didn't comment when that tape proved to be a hoax. You are saying their sophisticated cheating continues and it is known by all other owners and accepted? They are willing accomplices to their own teams being cheated out of wins? And they don't want to say anything because to object would decrease their teams' value? That absolutley makes no sense. Why wouldn't the owners insist that they get to take turns at this sophisticated cheating so that their teams would benefit equally? Why would Ralph, or the owners of the JAgs, Browns, Bengals, Raiders (Al Davis was "in on it"??) allow this to go on when it hurts the value of their teams? You are saying that "the media", which made Spygate the top sports story of the year, don't (or didn't--I'm confused) want to report on this because they would lose viewers and therefore advertising? And you claim this depsite that the media circus that was Spygate did not and has not dropped viewer appetite for watching the NFL on TV--with record ratings every year and recently signed record broadcast contracts with the league? These are very simple questions, with obvious answers to those who aren't crazy. They cheated. They got caught. If you believe they are not only still cheating, but (necessarily) are being allowed to continue cheating to the detrement of all other teams---well, you're crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filthymcnasty08 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Let me just get this straight: You are saying that any team could have silenced a player (let alone a straight arrow like Warner) with the threat of a fine if he said another team cheated after a SB loss? Warner spoke out after Spygate about the possibility of the infamous "taped walk through", but he later didn't comment when that tape proved to be a hoax. You are saying their sophisticated cheating continues and it is known by all other owners and accepted? They are willing accomplices to their own teams being cheated out of wins? And they don't want to say anything because to object would decrease their teams' value? That absolutley makes no sense. Why wouldn't the owners insist that they get to take turns at this sophisticated cheating so that their teams would benefit equally? Why would Ralph, or the owners of the JAgs, Browns, Bengals, Raiders (Al Davis was "in on it"??) allow this to go on when it hurts the value of their teams? You are saying that "the media", which made Spygate the top sports story of the year, don't (or didn't--I'm confused) want to report on this because they would lose viewers and therefore advertising? And you claim this depsite that the media circus that was Spygate did not and has not dropped viewer appetite for watching the NFL on TV--with record ratings every year and recently signed record broadcast contracts with the league? These are very simple questions, with obvious answers to those who aren't crazy. They cheated. They got caught. If you believe they are not only still cheating, but (necessarily) are being allowed to continue cheating to the detrement of all other teams---well, you're crazy. Read the book dude. Don't create strawmen arguments so you can feel better by having shot the messenger. Read the book. I'm not going to reduce this to name calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Mr WEO, you really need to read this book. Spygate was, for the most part, swept under the rug by the media. No one wants to see the cash cow that is pro football harmed. It is a billion dollar industry. Belichik and the Pats are still cheating. Roger Goodell is a skunk. The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 The sports media isn't too interested in delving deep to find the truth. Remember they're mostly wanna-be players/fans who love being around the action that they otherwise would never experience. Hence the reason it takes a Mangini or Canseco to blow the lid off something. I remember back in the late 90's when hitters were putting up incredible HR numbers, and all anyone in the media could say was "it's because of lousy pitching!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Read the book dude. Don't create strawmen arguments so you can feel better by having shot the messenger. Read the book. I'm not going to reduce this to name calling. Which of these questions is a "strawman argument"? Mr WEO, you really need to read this book. Spygate was, for the most part, swept under the rug by the media. No one wants to see the cash cow that is pro football harmed. It is a billion dollar industry. Belichik and the Pats are still cheating. Roger Goodell is a skunk. The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow You read the book. These are simple questions. They need logical answers. Why don't you just tell us the answers that the book gave you? Should be easy. All you have said so far is "it's a billion dollar industry". Everyone accepts the fact that they were caught cheating. The "Billion dollar industry" wasn't harmed in the least. To persuade anyone, you have to explain how the book explains why Jerry Jones and Al Davis and Ralph Wilson are/were really OK with all of this. "Read the book" isn't an explanation. You should be able to defend your position, or at least explain in some detail, after having read the book. Convince me they are still cheating and everyone is in on it--based on what you read. And, of course you'll have to explain how, with the publication of this bombshell book for all of the public to read, the NFL hasn't lost all of it's fans, the teams haven't lost all of their value, the TV networks haven't lost all of their viewers? Doesn't this all have to happen now, based on your logic as to why the NFL has kept ll this "secret" to this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Anyone? This was defensive SIGNALS given before a defender had the ability to listen to the DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 The sports media isn't too interested in delving deep to find the truth. Remember they're mostly wanna-be players/fans who love being around the action that they otherwise would never experience. Hence the reason it takes a Mangini or Canseco to blow the lid off something. I remember back in the late 90's when hitters were putting up incredible HR numbers, and all anyone in the media could say was "it's because of lousy pitching!" Canseco "blew the lid off", huh? Nice try, doc. The steroids in baseball story had already been broken by Fainaru-Wada and Williams (sports media?) the year before Conseco's "tell all". They had reported Giambi's admission the year prior to that in his grand jury testimony that he used steroids. And Mangini hardly "blew the lid off" of a practice that all teams were warned by the league was happening (and should cease) and that he himself had no problem with when he was on the staff of NE. And there was the story of your infamous "walk through" tape that a Boston Herald reporter was so eager to "blow the lid off of" that he didn't actually ask to see the tape before he rushed to publish his story. Of course, there was no tape. Yeah, that media just doesn't want to get a scoop on any of this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Romes Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 The sports media is in on this as well. They know sullying the league is to destroy their business model. Didn't a ref in the nba get caught fixing games a few years ago. Are you kidding me. How do you recover from that? You just stop talking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Which of these questions is a "strawman argument"? You read the book. These are simple questions. They need logical answers. Why don't you just tell us the answers that the book gave you? Should be easy. All you have said so far is "it's a billion dollar industry". Everyone accepts the fact that they were caught cheating. The "Billion dollar industry" wasn't harmed in the least. To persuade anyone, you have to explain how the book explains why Jerry Jones and Al Davis and Ralph Wilson are/were really OK with all of this. "Read the book" isn't an explanation. You should be able to defend your position, or at least explain in some detail, after having read the book. Convince me they are still cheating and everyone is in on it--based on what you read. And, of course you'll have to explain how, with the publication of this bombshell book for all of the public to read, the NFL hasn't lost all of it's fans, the teams haven't lost all of their value, the TV networks haven't lost all of their viewers? Doesn't this all have to happen now, based on your logic as to why the NFL has kept ll this "secret" to this point? Jimmy Johnson has always stated that in the week leading up to the Super Bowl, he was in a bar having a drink with someone. He then looked up at the TV and saw a news report showing the Bills running a shovel pass in practice. That's why Dallas was ready for it when they were about to punch it in when the game was still close. Jimmy Johnson is full of ****. He wants us to bilieve that even though the Bills had never run a shovel pass all year, they were going to put it in during an open practice with the media present and cameras rolling? Jerry got his rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Jimmy Johnson has always stated that in the week leading up to the Super Bowl, he was in a bar having a drink with someone. He then looked up at the TV and saw a news report showing the Bills running a shovel pass in practice. That's why Dallas was ready for it when they were about to punch it in when the game was still close. Jimmy Johnson is full of ****. He wants us to bilieve that even though the Bills had never run a shovel pass all year, they were going to put it in during an open practice with the media present and cameras rolling? Jerry got his rings. So every coach that beat us did it.... But we didn't dream of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 So every coach that beat us did it.... But we didn't dream of it. Not every coach, but there is no doubt in my mind that Dallas cheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Why would any Bills fan get a book about the Patriots? Is the well of bitterness bottomless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Canseco "blew the lid off", huh? Nice try, doc. The steroids in baseball story had already been broken by Fainaru-Wada and Williams (sports media?) the year before Conseco's "tell all". They had reported Giambi's admission the year prior to that in his grand jury testimony that he used steroids. And Mangini hardly "blew the lid off" of a practice that all teams were warned by the league was happening (and should cease) and that he himself had no problem with when he was on the staff of NE. And there was the story of your infamous "walk through" tape that a Boston Herald reporter was so eager to "blow the lid off of" that he didn't actually ask to see the tape before he rushed to publish his story. Of course, there was no tape. Yeah, that media just doesn't want to get a scoop on any of this.... Mangini is a weasel, no doubt. As is Canseco. But they revealed what the media wouldn't or couldn't...until about a decade later in (your allusion to) "A Game of Shadows," which came out in March of 2006. Real cutting-edge stuff there! Canseco admitted steroid use and rampant use in MLB on "60 Minutes" over a year before that book even came out, and had been talking about it since his arrest in 2003. As for the walk through tape, yes, that couldn't have existed. It's not like Goodell hurriedly destroyed all the damaging signal-taping evidence. Oh, wait a minute... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 (edited) Mangini is a weasel, no doubt. As is Canseco. But they revealed what the media wouldn't or couldn't...until about a decade later in (your allusion to) "A Game of Shadows," which came out in March of 2006. Real cutting-edge stuff there! Canseco admitted steroid use and rampant use in MLB on "60 Minutes" over a year before that book even came out, and had been talking about it since his arrest in 2003. As for the walk through tape, yes, that couldn't have existed. It's not like Goodell hurriedly destroyed all the damaging signal-taping evidence. Oh, wait a minute... I agree the nfl wants to hush stuff that could damage the shield. I will also say that the amount of info they had access to (conseco and mangini) dwarfed what a reporter would, while they also didn't really have to source anything. Conseco telling his secrets - easy. peter king deciding to out a franchise - hard. I'm also convinced any investigative reporting is a thing of the past, especially in sports. I don't think it's that reporters are "in on it." Reporters just aren't that good right now and I question how many are capable of taking on a story like this to the standard of their employers legal department. Players aren't smart enough to hide a real conspiracy, but reporters aren't motivated enough to expose one. Edited November 29, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Which of these questions is a "strawman argument"? To persuade anyone, you have to explain how the book explains why Jerry Jones and Al Davis and Ralph Wilson are/were really OK with all of this. "Read the book" isn't an explanation. You should be able to defend your position, or at least explain in some detail, after having read the book. Convince me they are still cheating and everyone is in on it- According to Mr. O'Leary, all of the owners had a meeting behind closed doors in which they discussed the consequences of Spygate. Since the NFL employs revenue sharing and several of the teams are worth over a billion dollars the owners allegedly decided to toe the company line and that it would be in their own best interests to make the whole thing go away. Can you imagine the fortunes of the owners that would be lost if the fans stopped watching games? Not just the owners' fortunes but the fortunes of sports networks, news media, players, merchandisers, etc. Also, if the Pats were to have stunk after Spygate, it would have made their cheating look worse. You have to remember that the NFL determined that the taping of other teams signals did not effect the outcomes of the games. The next year, the Pats went 16-0 beating up on teams with huge scores. This may have been done partly because of pampered boy Belichik's arrogance, but it was enabled by the NFL because it helped make folks think "Hey, these guys really are good. They really didn't have to cheat." Since free agency, it has become almost impossible for NFL teams to build long tenured dynasties. The Pats are the only team where it does not seem to matter who their players are or who there assistant coaches and coordinators are. Year in and year out, they achieve the same incredible results. Something is not right. Again, I encourage you to read the book. I am not good at writing book reports, so if you are interested in the truth you will have to find out more for yourself. You can then determine what you want to believe. As fans, we are entitled to our own opinions as to what the Pats did to the rest of the league and what their legacy should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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