Gary M Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 once again, i couldn't disagree more. and that's why selection to med schools needs to be based on more than mcat scores and gpa's and why people looking at it as just one of a few accessible, high paying professions should be low on the acceptance list. taking care of sick patients is what anybody going into medicine should long to do.in this instance, i bet there's more than meets the eye. my hunch is that this patient has been noncompliant with many things including a weight loss program. if a patient is not willing to make a good faith effort towards improving their health and consistently disregards recommendations including meds,smoking etc, then i think a doc has every right to "fire" them. just as a patient has every right to fire a doctor if they don't feel they connect.doctors firing noncompliant patients will become more common, however, i predict. with an influx of new patients via the affordable care act, it will be (even more) counterproductive to beat one's head against the wall to try to convince noncompliant patients to do the right thing. and in the long run, this may be the most efficient use of resources...use them on people who will at least try to improve their own health. maybe after a few dismissal letters some of the truly noncompliant patients will see the light. And on top of all that, they have worry about malpractice suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 And on top of all that, they have worry about malpractice suits. As long as they document the non-compliance by the patient I don't think there is much to worry about. Kind of like when I have a client that want's to buy a particular investment that I think is completely wrong for them. I have no choice, I have to facilitate the purchase. I just mark the trade as unsolicited and I'm 100% off the hook it goes terribly wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 once again, i couldn't disagree more. and that's why selection to med schools needs to be based on more than mcat scores and gpa's and why people looking at it as just one of a few accessible, high paying professions should be low on the acceptance list. taking care of sick patients is what anybody going into medicine should long to do.in this instance, i bet there's more than meets the eye. my hunch is that this patient has been noncompliant with many things including a weight loss program. if a patient is not willing to make a good faith effort towards improving their health and consistently disregards recommendations including meds,smoking etc, then i think a doc has every right to "fire" them. just as a patient has every right to fire a doctor if they don't feel they connect.doctors firing noncompliant patients will become more common, however, i predict. with an influx of new patients via the affordable care act, it will be (even more) counterproductive to beat one's head against the wall to try to convince noncompliant patients to do the right thing. and in the long run, this may be the most efficient use of resources...use them on people who will at least try to improve their own health. maybe after a few dismissal letters some of the truly noncompliant patients will see the light. It's a free country, meaning you're allowed to choose who you want to treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 once again, i couldn't disagree more. and that's why selection to med schools needs to be based on more than mcat scores and gpa's and why people looking at it as just one of a few accessible, high paying professions should be low on the acceptance list. taking care of sick patients is what anybody going into medicine should long to do.in this instance, i bet there's more than meets the eye. my hunch is that this patient has been noncompliant with many things including a weight loss program. if a patient is not willing to make a good faith effort towards improving their health and consistently disregards recommendations including meds,smoking etc, then i think a doc has every right to "fire" them. just as a patient has every right to fire a doctor if they don't feel they connect.doctors firing noncompliant patients will become more common, however, i predict. with an influx of new patients via the affordable care act, it will be (even more) counterproductive to beat one's head against the wall to try to convince noncompliant patients to do the right thing. and in the long run, this may be the most efficient use of resources...use them on people who will at least try to improve their own health. maybe after a few dismissal letters some of the truly noncompliant patients will see the light. Of course you disagree. You're consistently in support of government coercing others to do what you consider to be the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 It's a free country, meaning you're allowed to choose who you want to treat. yep, but that's a bit different then "if they can make a living doing it, then more power to em". you seem to try to suck all the virtue out of medicine and then revel in it. i find that sad. it's not just a job to everyone...thank goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 yep, but that's a bit different then "if they can make a living doing it, then more power to em". you seem to try to suck all the virtue out of medicine and then revel in it. i find that sad. it's not just a job to everyone...thank goodness. Medicare made up 31.3% and Medicaid made up 8.9% of my practice last year, so I'm not "reveling" in anything. Once again, if someone else can make a living off-of only paying and/or private insurance patients, more power to him/her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 once again, i couldn't disagree more. and that's why selection to med schools needs to be based on more than mcat scores and gpa's and why people looking at it as just one of a few accessible, high paying professions should be low on the acceptance list. I find it to be hideously unethical for a doctor to desire that the best and brightest stay away from medicine because they would seek to make money, substituting less qualified caregivers simply because they share their prefered politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I find it to be hideously unethical for a doctor to desire that the best and brightest stay away from medicine because they would seek to make money, substituting less qualified caregivers simply because they share their prefered politics. Who do you think will be going into medicine now? Certainly won't be the best and brightest, saddled with hundreds of thousands in debt, years of apprenticeship, worsening conditions, and reduced reimbursements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) I find it to be hideously unethical for a doctor to desire that the best and brightest stay away from medicine because they would seek to make money, substituting less qualified caregivers simply because they share their prefered politics. i stopped giving any credence to what you find, a few days back. but in reply to the general idea that a more balanced application process to med school would result in less qualified doctors, i would reply that humanism and compassion are as or are more important than those qualities measured by gpa's and mcat scores. there are plenty of smart people that possess those qualities. Edited August 28, 2012 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Who do you think will be going into medicine now? Certainly won't be the best and brightest, saddled with hundreds of thousands in debt, years of apprenticeship, worsening conditions, and reduced reimbursements. http://forums.twobil...w/#entry2501189 How does artificial scarcity work in favor of patients? Furthermore, the notion of medicine as a calling is pie-in-the-sky utopian horseshit. Most doctors get into medicine because of the earning potential, the social prestige, a family legacy, the flexible schedule, or some combination of those. Doctors are people just like the rest of us. i stopped giving any credence to what you find, a few days back. but in reply to the general idea that a more balanced application process to med school would result in less qualified doctors, i would reply that humanism and compassion are as or are more important than those measured by gpa's and mcat scores. there are plenty of smart people that possess those qualities. By "more balanced", I assume you mean less driven to suceed and less qualified academically. By "humanist" I assume you mean acceptably Marxist. Idiot. Edited August 28, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 http://forums.twobil...w/#entry2501189 By "more balanced", I assume you mean less driven to suceed and less qualified academically. By "humanist" I assume you mean acceptably Marxist. Idiot. you forgot compassion. how do you interpret that word? i thought you put great stock in dictionary definitions and language purity (especially english). the words were used literally. look them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) I disregarded it, because you used it as a substitute for competence. I'm not interested in how much a doctor feels my pain, I want him to fix it so I don't feel it. You make that more difficult. Edited August 28, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 you forgot compassion. how do you interpret that word? i thought you put great stock in dictionary definitions and language purity (especially english). the words were used literally. look them up. How do you quantify that? I think it's commendable that you're willing to sacrifice for others (if you do), but I think your idealism here would be a net loss to society. It's nice that you're willing to make the sacrifice but it's unethical to impose that on others. If a doctor wants to pick and choose his patients that's his right, and the business he refuses creates an opening for a doctor who wants that business and/or is one of these do-gooders you believe are in great abundance who will make the required sacrifices for little return. You're also taking the decision away from those who would prefer to be treated by House rather than Dr. Quinn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 How do you quantify that? I think it's commendable that you're willing to sacrifice for others (if you do), but I think your idealism here would be a net loss to society. It's nice that you're willing to make the sacrifice but it's unethical to impose that on others. If a doctor wants to pick and choose his patients that's his right, and the business he refuses creates an opening for a doctor who wants that business and/or is one of these do-gooders you believe are in great abundance who will make the required sacrifices for little return. You're also taking the decision away from those who would prefer to be treated by House rather than Dr. Quinn. both you and dr schweitzer in a post above, base your arguments on premises for which there is no basis in fact (once again)...and dr quinn? thats the best you can do as an example of a doctor with the qualities that i outlined? you're a real renaissance man, now aren't you? but back to the argument....i know of no evidence linking mcat scores and gpa's to outcomes. THAT'S how i would quantify "that". i vaguely recall a paper about 15 years ago looking at the correlation between med school grades and mcat scores and the results were equivocal i believe. anecdotally, the top scoring kid in my med school class had the personality of a trout, hands of stone and was uncoordinated to the point that he tripped over himself frequently.. thankfully, he ended up in research. dr schweiter's argument rests on the premise that medicine can fix everything. sadly, that's far from true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) So doctors are free to care for whom they (you) deem "worthy" and sh** on the rest of the people. BRAVO!!! If it's already happening how can you blame Obamacare? Edited August 28, 2012 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 So doctors are free to care for whom they (you) deem "worthy" and sh** on the rest of the people. BRAVO!!! If it's already happening how can you blame Obamacare? Yeah. There's a problem with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) It's a free country, meaning you're allowed to choose who you want to treat. Then maybe you should choose a career where you aren't conflicted. What would you do or say if a doctor refused to treat your parents, wife or children? --------------- you are right Tom. How could I ever think a Conservative (person of religion) would EVER want to follow Christ's ways. Edited August 28, 2012 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) both you and dr schweitzer in a post above, base your arguments on premises for which there is no basis in fact (once again)...and dr quinn? thats the best you can do as an example of a doctor with the qualities that i outlined? you're a real renaissance man, now aren't you? but back to the argument....i know of no evidence linking mcat scores and gpa's to outcomes. THAT'S how i would quantify "that". i vaguely recall a paper about 15 years ago looking at the correlation between med school grades and mcat scores and the results were equivocal i believe. anecdotally, the top scoring kid in my med school class had the personality of a trout, hands of stone and was uncoordinated to the point that he tripped over himself frequently.. thankfully, he ended up in research. dr schweiter's argument rests on the premise that medicine can fix everything. sadly, that's far from true. You haven't been paying much attention. I never once claimed medicine can fix everything. On the contrary, I'm a big believer of preventative medicine, but that Obamacare does nothing in that area and puts no onus on the patient. So doctors are free to care for whom they (you) deem "worthy" and sh** on the rest of the people. BRAVO!!! If it's already happening how can you blame Obamacare? Um, no. Most doctors can't make a successful practice by cherry-picking. So no one is geting "sh** on." Then maybe you should choose a career where you aren't conflicted. What would you do or say if a doctor refused to treat your parents, wife or children? --------------- you are right Tom. How could I ever think a Conservative (person of religion) would EVER want to follow Christ's ways. LOL! What makes you think I'm "conflicted?" If a doctor refused to treat a family member, I'd want to know why. Yesterday for example, I took my FIL to the urologist becaue he had a bladder tumor diagnosed by ultrasound on Friday. He called the doctor's office in the morning and was given an appointment for 1:45 that (yesterday) afternoon. We got into the exam room at 1:50, but had to wait a half hour to see the urologist (a guy I knew but he didn't know I was with them since I never told anyone), during which time the nurse came into the room several times to take vitals, a urine sample, and see that we were okay. So my MIL starts complaining about the wait time. I told her, in a nice way, to be happy he got seen so quickly, that waiting in the exam room was better than waiting in the waiting room, and that the doctor was probably taking his time with other patients, just like anyone would want to happen with them. If I hadn't said anything, she probably would have made a comment, when she had no business doing so. Edited August 28, 2012 by Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 So doctors are free to care for whom they (you) deem "worthy" and sh** on the rest of the people. BRAVO!!! If it's already happening how can you blame Obamacare? many of the posters here come off as heartless, souless and devoid of anything remotely approaching empathy. sounds a lot like an accurate description of both romney and ryan to me. but romney will be "reintroducing" himself to america this week. seems, his first introduction wasn't met with as much enthusiasm as expected. wonder why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 many of the posters here come off as heartless, souless and devoid of anything remotely approaching empathy. sounds a lot like an accurate description of both romney and ryan to me. but romney will be "reintroducing" himself to america this week. seems, his first introduction wasn't met with as much enthusiasm as expected. wonder why... Where the fu ck do you come up with this sh it?? God, you're a moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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