Can Fitzpatrick be an upper echelon QB?

[Drewgetz]

How bout the part you left un-emboldened?

I was just thinking along the lines of a Lombardi-like "act like you've been there before" and save THAT kind of over-the-top celebration just before the ticker tape drifts down from the roof and the clock is striking midnight for our Superbowl opponent.

 

But like I said, he seems to have fun out there and we all hope that translates to wins and he is given the opportunity to be "the man" in a big moment for the Bills. Whether that means just protecting the ball and managing the game or being called upon to score 38 points and throw for 375 yds, we'll all find out soon enough. Can't wait.

 

 

I hear ya, but making great plays and celebrating doesn't mean you ARE there yet, you're just trying to get there. Every step closer to there is a great achievement and deserves celebrating. Once you get there, whether it's the win of a game or the win of a superbowl,you can say "yeah, I know" and you "act like you've been there" b/c you are there. But during the game and during the season and you get a another step closer, sure, celebrate, b/c on the way to that ticker tape is the time to go over the top and drive yourself. Once you get there, THEN act like it.

[Drewgetz]

 

 

Is Fitzy really capable of even QBing this team to an SB? Nope. pretty doubtful.

 

 

 

 

I don't think he even needs to be QBing this team to the SB, I think he just needs to be a QB on a TEAM that is going to the superbowl.

 

--

 

I would NOT be happy with a playoff appearance unless it's behind an AFC East championship. I would also be happy to get to our second game into the playoffs however we get there.

 

I know they have to prove it first, I get it, show it on the field, but I really do billieve in this defense to make the difference in games. I also agree that with not having to come from behind Fitz will take less risks and be the QB that he is meant to be. A smart guy who can study the field and make the best pass available. Can he tell the difference between a bad pass and an easy pass? Sure, but he's hasn't had much of a choice recently...well, ever in his career. I think he finally will be able to always take the best pass available rather then take that risk and force it, otherwise throw it away. Maybe he has always been a mediocre backup b/c he has always had to play from behind and try to get creative. Upper echelon? No, but so what?. A superb game manager with some skills to lead a team? yup, and that's enough.

 

Disclaimer:

 

I don't claim to be an expert on anything, I don't have any links to prove anything. I am just a fan who thought he had something to say and is IMO, IMHO, IAOTWMMBCAM (In any opinion that won't make me be called an moron.)

Edited July 23, 2012 by Drewgetz

[Tcali]

This is the question that will determine the bills success in 2012. I'm surprised it isn't # 1.

 

We've heard nothing but good news as far as Fitz changing his mechanics and working with coach Lee. The fact that he was injured in the second half last year makes it a little easier to swallow last years collapse. But the fact is, he's still Fitz. He's a journeyman QB who is now being asked to make the playoffs and bring this team to the promised land. Can Fitz be that guy? I'm not sure...

 

fitz could win a superbowl as a starting qb if his supporting cast is very strong. upper echelon QB? no way in h#ll.

[Billsrhody]

I don't think he even needs to be QBing this team to the SB, I think he just needs to be a QB on a TEAM that is going to the superbowl.

 

--

 

I would NOT be happy with a playoff appearance unless it's behind an AFC East championship. I would also be happy to get to our second game into the playoffs however we get there.

 

I know they have to prove it first, I get it, show it on the field, but I really do billieve in this defense to make the difference in games. I also agree that with not having to come from behind Fitz will take less risks and be the QB that he is meant to be. A smart guy who can study the field and make the best pass available. Can he tell the difference between a bad pass and an easy pass? Sure, but he's hasn't had much of a choice recently...well, ever in his career. I think he finally will be able to always take the best pass available rather then take that risk and force it, otherwise throw it away. Maybe he has always been a mediocre backup b/c he has always had to play from behind and try to get creative. Upper echelon? No, but so what?. A superb game manager with some skills to lead a team? yup, and that's enough.

 

Disclaimer:

 

I don't claim to be an expert on anything, I don't have any links to prove anything. I am just a fan who thought he had something to say and is IMO, IMHO, IAOTWMMBCAM (In any opinion that won't make me be called an moron.)

 

My issue is.. at some point Fitz will have to lead a game winning drive or a comeback from double digits down. Eli Manning had to do it several times throughout the playoffs to win the superbowl last year. Fitz can ride his defense all year, but will he be able to get it done when it really counts?

[eball]

My issue is.. at some point Fitz will have to lead a game winning drive or a comeback from double digits down. Eli Manning had to do it several times throughout the playoffs to win the superbowl last year. Fitz can ride his defense all year, but will he be able to get it done when it really counts?

See: Weeks 2 and 3, 2011. Both questions answered. Now he has what appears to be a formidable defense supporting him, and continuity among the offensive personnel.

 

The opportunity is there.

[hondo in seattle]

> his is somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy. If you win the SB and your QB

> is not absolute garbage, suddenly he's a "franchise QB".

 

I'll grant there may be a lot of people who use the phrase "franchise QB" in the way you've described. But that's not how I'm using it. My definition of a franchise QB is a guy who can consistently average 7.2 - 7.4 yards per attempt or better.

 

Take Eli Manning for example. During his first five seasons in the league, he never averaged more than 6.8 yards per attempt. Those are not franchise numbers! But during the last three years, he's averaged 7.9, 7.4, and 8.4 yards per attempt. For comparison, his brother has a career average of 7.6 yards per attempt. I'm not calling Eli a franchise QB because I'm reiterating the words of some talking head. I'm calling him a franchise QB because his numbers over the past three seasons bear no other interpretation.

 

I'll grant that Eli didn't play at a franchise level in the regular season leading up to his team's first Super Bowl win. His below-franchise play is an important reason the Giants only went 9-7 during that regular season. But during the postseason he played at a higher level. A franchise level. A level which has subsequently become his new norm.

 

> A QB don't do it by himself. He needs a supporting cast and a good coach.

 

Agreed. Having a franchise QB is no guarantee of a Super Bowl win; as the Bills found with Kelly, the Dolphins with Marino, etc. But if you don't have a franchise QB, you are very, very unlikely to win the Super Bowl.

 

> Who is the non "Franchise QB" that won in the last 10 years?

 

Brad Johnson. And even there it was a case of Johnson having the best season of his career; which happened to coincide with the best season for the Bucs' defense.

 

Prior to that, the Ravens won the Super Bowl without a franchise QB. To do that, they built one of the three best defenses in NFL history, a great offensive line led by a Hall of Fame-level LT in Jon Ogden, a great running game in the form of Jamal Lewis, and a very good TE in the form of Shannon Sharpe. Even their special teams were strong, and IIRC produced 10 points in what would otherwise have been a very close postseason game. Finally, the Ravens got lucky in that their postseason opponents were relatively weak. The Kerry Collins-led Giants team they faced in the Super Bowl was a much weaker Giants team than the one which won this past Super Bowl.

 

> If the Bills win the SB this year, Fitz or Vince or Thigpen or Smith will be a "Franchise QB".

 

Not to me. Fitz has to prove he can consistently average 7.2 - 7.4 yards per attempt or better for me to put the franchise label on him. For perspective: Trent Edwards' career average is 6.5 yards per attempt, with his best season having been 7.2 yards per attempt. Peyton Manning has a career average of 7.6 yards per attempt; and Tom Brady's career average is 7.5 yards per attempt. Fitz's best season is 6.8 yards per attempt. Let's not get the anointing oil out for Fitz just yet! (Or ever, unless he shows us significantly better numbers than he has thus far.)

 

 

Rob Johnson at his peak was therefore a franchise QB. He averaged 7.6 ypa in 1999 and 7.3 ypa in 2000. For two years, he met your criteria. It's hard to quantify "franchise QB" but if I were to attempt it, I'd probably look at total yards (or yards per game). Guys like Brees and Brady move their teams up and down the field with the arms, not by handing off.

 

I think the argument that a QB is often labeled a "franchise QB" after a SB win (however much the QB contributed) is a fair one.

 

Incidentally, Bledsoe led the Pats to the SB in 1996 (which they lost), averaging only 6.6 ypa that season (same as his entire career in NE). But he passed for over 4,000 yards that year and went to the Pro Bowl.

[Billsrhody]

See: Weeks 2 and 3, 2011. Both questions answered. Now he has what appears to be a formidable defense supporting him, and continuity among the offensive personnel.

 

The opportunity is there.

 

Doing it in the regular season is great. Weeks 2 and 3 when you have no pressure or expectations are nice, but I don't think that just translates into down 5 with 2 minutes left in the AFC Championship.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Billsrhody

[Adam]

He will never be an echelon.

[eball]

Doing it in the regular season is great. Weeks 2 and 3 when you have no pressure or expectations are nice, but I don't think that just translates into down 5 with 2 minutes left in the AFC Championship.

I doubt the players and coaches agree. The NFL season is only 16 games -- the importance of each and every one is magnified. If you think Fitz thought, "oh well, it doesn't matter if we lose this one" while trying to end a 15-game losing streak to the Pats* you're smoking some pretty good schitt.

 

Nobody knows what a QB will do in those moments (i.e., AFC Championship) until he's actually there. Jim Kelly's first AFC title game was a mess.

[Drewgetz]

Doing it in the regular season is great. Weeks 2 and 3 when you have no pressure or expectations are nice, but I don't think that just translates into down 5 with 2 minutes left in the AFC Championship.

 

 

It's not supposed to translate. Regular season is regular season, playoffs are playoffs. He has not played in a playoff game yet so to say he can't do it or worried that he can't do is unfair. If he CAN do it in the regular season then you have to give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume he is going to pull a Tony Homo and flounder at the end. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt instead of making him prove me wrong. He has the tools, he has the smarts and he has the supporting cast now. Why are we doubting him before he has a chance to do it. There is no past experience here so we can't rely on past experiences to predict. New territory for Buffalo here, Playoffs. Go Bills! Win Bills!

[Billsrhody]

I doubt the players and coaches agree. The NFL season is only 16 games -- the importance of each and every one is magnified. If you think Fitz thought, "oh well, it doesn't matter if we lose this one" while trying to end a 15-game losing streak to the Pats* you're smoking some pretty good schitt.

 

Nobody knows what a QB will do in those moments (i.e., AFC Championship) until he's actually there. Jim Kelly's first AFC title game was a mess.

 

Nobody expected the Bills to be a playoff team. No one expected them to beat the Pats, let alone the raiders. There's a huge difference between regular season and playoffs. Of course Fitz wanted to win and tried to win.. he just didnt have the pressure or expectation of doing so. I'm sure that allowed him to play pretty loose and just sling the ball around. Besides, in the Pats game, the defensive did 90% of the work as far as getting the team back in the game. Fitz didn't have to make any spectacular throws (he made 1 great throw to Jones down the sideline) and everybody stepped up.

 

Either way you're missing my point. Regular season comebacks dont necessarily translate into playoffs comebacks.

 

It's not supposed to translate. Regular season is regular season, playoffs are playoffs. He has not played in a playoff game yet so to say he can't do it or worried that he can't do is unfair. If he CAN do it in the regular season then you have to give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume he is going to pull a Tony Homo and flounder at the end. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt instead of making him prove me wrong. He has the tools, he has the smarts and he has the supporting cast now. Why are we doubting him before he has a chance to do it. There is no past experience here so we can't rely on past experiences to predict. New territory for Buffalo here, Playoffs. Go Bills! Win Bills!

 

Well how about this.. Tony Romo has 13 4th quarter come backs and 14 game winning drives in his career during the regular season. How has that translated to the playoffs? Almost every QB that starts all 16 games of a season will have a comeback win or a game winning drive.. that doesn't mean they can do it in the playoffs. Tony Romo is a great example.. thanks for bringing him up.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Billsrhody

[PromoTheRobot]

I predict Fitz will throw an incompletion. Do we give him the hook?

 

PTR

[Drewgetz]

Nobody expected the Bills to be a playoff team. No one expected them to beat the Pats, let alone the raiders. There's a huge difference between regular season and playoffs. Of course Fitz wanted to win and tried to win.. he just didnt have the pressure or expectation of doing so. I'm sure that allowed him to play pretty loose and just sling the ball around. Besides, in the Pats game, the defensive did 90% of the work as far as getting the team back in the game. Fitz didn't have to make any spectacular throws (he made 1 great throw to Jones down the sideline) and everybody stepped up.

 

Either way you're missing my point. Regular season comebacks dont necessarily translate into playoffs comebacks.

 

 

 

Well how about this.. Tony Romo has 13 4th quarter come backs and 14 game winning drives in his career during the regular season. How has that translated to the playoffs? Almost every QB that starts all 16 games of a season will have a comeback win or a game winning drive.. that doesn't mean they can do it in the playoffs. Tony Romo is a great example.. thanks for bringing him up.

 

I am not going to let you now drag this into a romo discussion. To say he has had trouble in December is well documented, that's all I was saying. If you want to doubt on Fitz and the Bills go ahead. I support my team and hope they can win. During the off season my expectations are high, as they are every year and should be for every NFL fan. And regardless of what you think. I'm willing to bet that Fitz feels pressure every game and every play. He does not say "oh hum, just a regular season game" The playoffs are not all that different. It's just beating the best of the best and they are the same teams that play during the regular season.

 

I got your point and it is mute. Good coaches can translate into good players that translate into good games which translate into winning seasons. Improved defense will translate into improved offense and healthy players will translate into better players on the field which will translate into won games pre season, regular season or post season. yadda yadda yadda. I'm going to work, good day.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Drewgetz

[Thunderstealer]

A player--especially a qb must have success in the playoffs for media to approve of him. See Flacco. He's looked upon as an elite.

[John from Riverside]

My issue is.. at some point Fitz will have to lead a game winning drive or a comeback from double digits down. Eli Manning had to do it several times throughout the playoffs to win the superbowl last year. Fitz can ride his defense all year, but will he be able to get it done when it really counts?

 

We wont know if Fitz is capable of these things until the other areas of the team are solidified (now me personally? I think that they are and we find that out this year)

[eball]

Nobody expected the Bills to be a playoff team. No one expected them to beat the Pats, let alone the raiders. There's a huge difference between regular season and playoffs. Of course Fitz wanted to win and tried to win.. he just didnt have the pressure or expectation of doing so. I'm sure that allowed him to play pretty loose and just sling the ball around. Besides, in the Pats game, the defensive did 90% of the work as far as getting the team back in the game. Fitz didn't have to make any spectacular throws (he made 1 great throw to Jones down the sideline) and everybody stepped up.

 

Either way you're missing my point. Regular season comebacks dont necessarily translate into playoffs comebacks.

I am most definitely missing your point, because that first paragraph is pretty ridiculous.

[Billsrhody]

A player--especially a qb must have success in the playoffs for media to approve of him. See Flacco. He's looked upon as an elite.

 

I dont think Flacco or Sanchez are viewed as elite.. and they've both had post season success.

[CodeMonkey]

Flacco is probably one of those guys that some will think of him as elite and some not.

The only thing elite about Sanchise to date is his paycheck.

[John from Riverside]

I just think its interesting that folks have such a high opinion of Flacco......and a low opinion of Fitz

 

One of these QB's has been given an offensive line......went out of their way aquire wide reciever threats, oh and last but not least A DEFENSE TO ERASE HIS MISTAKES.....WHAT TEAM DOES FLACCO PLAY ON

 

Fitzy? He had the last place defense in the league backing him up.

[BuffBill]

Doing it in the regular season is great. Weeks 2 and 3 when you have no pressure or expectations are nice, but I don't think that just translates into down 5 with 2 minutes left in the AFC Championship.

Never gonna make it to the AFC Championship when you have a QB who single handedly throws games away like he did against the Super Bowl Champion Giants last year in New Joisey.