section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) The thread that won't die got me to thinking has any coach ever been considered "great" without having a great qb? Belicheck was horrible in Cleveland then a genius with NE* (and Brady). Shula was an excellent coach but had Griese and Marino. George Seifert was amazing in sf (to the tune of highest winning percentage in history) and not so much in Carolina. Even our own Marv was not thought of to be good until Kelly came along. My point and question is this can you name an NFL coach who transcended the qb position and rose above mediocrity form that position to be considered great? I can't think of one but I am sure there are a select few. Edited June 29, 2012 by section122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optometric Insight Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Yes and his name is Chan Gailey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meathead Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 define gratness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 define gratness ahhh yes the grammar police. I've fixed it for you... now anything to add to the discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cincinnati Kid Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Gruden and Billick won SuperBowls without a "great" qb. Jim Fassel took the giants to the superbowl with Kerry Collins in 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 To some extent this is a chicken and egg question as to whether a great QB makes a great coach or vice versa. I think the answer is yes and there are a couplel places to look for stark examples: 1. Great D teams which won the SB which points to great coaching but perhaps not lead QB importance. The 2000 Ravens with Dilfer but great coaching of their team and D and the 1985 Bears with inconsistent QBing at best from McMahon but Ditka coaching one of the best teams ever are examples. 2. In my view roughly 80% of HCs are about the same and can win with good teams and lose with bad teams. Of the remaining 20% rougly 3/4 of this group are Rich Kotites who can lose anywhere and a small 5% are Bill Parcells types who can win anywhere with just about anything. He won the SB with Phil Simms and with Jeff Hostetler who IMHO are mostly considered good QBs because Parcells handled his team so well. 3.There are other cases as well but nothing so stark a the cases above (Shula won with Unitas bur he also won with Earl Morall which is not a clear cut example but worth noting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Gruden and Billick won SuperBowls without a "great" qb. Jim Fassel took the giants to the superbowl with Kerry Collins in 2000. I'm not talking about winning a super bowl though. I am more wondering what coaches are thought to be great. I don't think anyone thinks Gruden, Fassel, or Billick are great coaches. They certainly aren't on anyone's HOF list. Thinking more about it and I will say Ditka is the name that I can think of. His Bears won with D and he had Payton. I don't think anyone would say McMahon was a great qb. There is the Saint's debacle but I think most still consider him to be "great". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Depends upon what you mean by greatness. It cannot be just as simple as say winning a SB as the GM generally has as much to do with that as a HC by staffing the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Gruden and Billick won SuperBowls without a "great" qb. Jim Fassel took the giants to the superbowl with Kerry Collins in 2000. Gruden and Billick were not great coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 To some extent this is a chicken and egg question as to whether a great QB makes a great coach or vice versa. I think the answer is yes and there are a couplel places to look for stark examples: 1. Great D teams which won the SB which points to great coaching but perhaps not lead QB importance. The 2000 Ravens with Dilfer but great coaching of their team and D and the 1985 Bears with inconsistent QBing at best from McMahon but Ditka coaching one of the best teams ever are examples. 2. In my view roughly 80% of HCs are about the same and can win with good teams and lose with bad teams. Of the remaining 20% rougly 3/4 of this group are Rich Kotites who can lose anywhere and a small 5% are Bill Parcells types who can win anywhere with just about anything. He won the SB with Phil Simms and with Jeff Hostetler who IMHO are mostly considered good QBs because Parcells handled his team so well. 3.There are other cases as well but nothing so stark a the cases above (Shula won with Unitas bur he also won with Earl Morall which is not a clear cut example but worth noting. I agree strongly with #2 which is where this came from. Good example in Parcells. I feel that winning a super bowl doesn't make you a great coach per se (although it does help in the argument) and that coaches are more a victim of circumstance (who their qb is) more so than in most sports. I think that is why we rarely see coaches repeat their success. Not many can go to another team and have any type of success which leads me back to thinking that the qb position plays an inordinate amount in what their reputation is. Depends upon what you mean by greatness. It cannot be just as simple as say winning a SB as the GM generally has as much to do with that as a HC by staffing the team. what I mean (and others may interpret this differently) is that when you hear their name you think 'that is a great coach'. People's perception of that may be different but I definitely don't mean just because they won a super bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Vince Lombardi is certainly considered a great coach, and while Bart Starr was a good QB, I wouldn't call him great. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 what I mean (and others may interpret this differently) is that when you hear their name you think 'that is a great coach'. People's perception of that may be different but I definitely don't mean just because they won a super bowl. I agree, it is mainly a matter of perception. For example some people here (even some non rabid homers ) think Gailey is a great coach. Though there is nothing specific in his resume, in my opinion anyway, that you could point to to defend that feeling. "Great coach" is in the eye of the beholder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Gruden and Billick were not great coaches. I have to disagree. And I wonder, if they had better QBs, whether you would think differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Vince Lombardi is certainly considered a great coach, and while Bart Starr was a good QB, I wouldn't call him great. . Lombardi is an interesting example to consider. He was a great cosch in Green Bay but he was not good and arguably produced poor results as an HC in DC. Marv is certainly an HOF talent for his Bills work but he simply sucked in KC. Even Billicheat who has simply done sm amazing things in NE that I would say are some of the best episodes of HC work I have ever seen, simply was mediocre in 5 years at Cleveland with one playoff game loss is all he has to show for it. When one adds to this his agreement to coach the Jets and sinmple reneging on the deal and also the taping episode, I would never want to see this cheater be called great. I think yeah sort of is the totally correct answer to the question in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Vince Lombardi is certainly considered a great coach, and while Bart Starr was a good QB, I wouldn't call him great. . I was just going to write that. I agree, great team, great coach, good QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Joe Gibbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Lombardi is an interesting example to consider. He was a great cosch in Green Bay but he was not good and arguably produced poor results as an HC in DC. Marv is certainly an HOF talent for his Bills work but he simply sucked in KC. Even Billicheat who has simply done sm amazing things in NE that I would say are some of the best episodes of HC work I have ever seen, simply was mediocre in 5 years at Cleveland with one playoff game loss is all he has to show for it. When one adds to this his agreement to coach the Jets and sinmple reneging on the deal and also the taping episode, I would never want to see this cheater be called great. I think yeah sort of is the totally correct answer to the question in this thread. Lombardi coached in DC for one year 1969. He took over a team that went 5 and 9 in 1968, their record in 1969 was 7-5-2 second in the division. Not really bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Joe Gibbs Yeah, Gibbs won 3 Superbowls with 3 different QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleaMoulds80 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Bill Cowher (Neil O'Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox) Sure he had Big Ben his last 2 years as HC but Ben wasn't "GREAT" his 1st 2 years. Bill Parcells (Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Neil O'Donnell, Ray Lucas) Mike Ditka (Jim McMahon, Heath Shuler, Kerry Collins, Billy Joe Tolliver) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Bill Cowher (Neil O'Donnell, Mike Tomczak, Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox) Sure he had Big Ben his last 2 years as HC but Ben wasn't "GREAT" his 1st 2 years. Bill Parcells (Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Neil O'Donnell, Ray Lucas) Mike Ditka (Jim McMahon, Heath Shuler, Kerry Collins, Billy Joe Tolliver) I don't consider Cowher to be a great coach but a vastly over rated one... Much like Jeff fisher he benefited from longevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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