The Big Cat Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm not going to argue with you. You've been so frequently wrong on nearly every debate I've seen you enter in the past few years it's unfathomable. Besides, I'm still waiting for that baby. Two years of rebuilding and 10 wins. What's there to debate? Yeah, I was totally wrong two years ago when I said our problems began an ended with Trentless as our quarterback. At the time, I was making the argument from the bottom of a pile that mainly consisted of play calling theories, receiver theories, offensive line theories and coaching theories. Give me an instance where I was flat out wrong, and I'll come correct. But, as always, I'm certain you're just fartin' up a bunch of smoke. But, in this case, you're actually correct. A team is struggling to get wins during a rebuilding process. Alert the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I had read a similar article or published paper a couple years ago, regarding the four key position concept. Seems like in today's game being so pass oriented, this would be even more important. Buffalo basically has nobody at these keys positions that and has not for over a decade now. When I say nobody I mean: 1. True franchise QB. Fitz is a backup IMO. 2. True LT. Peters is gone I know. 3. Pass Rushing DE: Schobel was OK. 4. Lockdown corner: The Bills have had some good ones over the years, but you can't really over pay and I understand that. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11812689 Be sure to checkout the point scale at bottom of page. Oh like the eagles... Right? There is no one formula for success in any mode of life. Otherwise you'd see teams trading all of their decent players to bolster on of the 4 prongs. Btw Houston is having their best season ever, with their franchise qb and pass rusher on IR. I can't even remember their LT or CB, name. Ravens win year after year with avg CB and QB.... Which probowler LT played for the steelers all the past few years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Oh like the eagles... Right? There is no one formula for success in any mode of life. Otherwise you'd see teams trading all of their decent players to bolster on of the 4 prongs. Btw Houston is having their best season ever, with their franchise qb and pass rusher on IR. I can't even remember their LT or CB, name. Ravens win year after year with avg CB and QB.... Which probowler LT played for the steelers all the past few years? Houstons LT Duane brown was very good. Jonathan Joseph, their cb, was among the top FAs in the league They drafted several pass rushers lately. Edited January 13, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Houstons LT Duane brown was an allpro Jonathan Joseph, their cb, was among the top FAs in the league They drafted several pass rushers lately. They don't have an elite QB and they just made the playoffs for the first time ever, after switching to a new defense. Many would argue that Wade has been the biggest difference. The point is, when you get down to it, all the OP is really saying is that successful teams need good QB play, good line play, and a decent pass rush. This is not news. The notion that you need a shutdown CB has basically been exploded by the success of the Pats, Packers, Giants, and Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) They don't have an elite QB and they just made the playoffs for the first time ever, after switching to a new defense. Many would argue that Wade has been the biggest difference. The point is, when you get down to it, all the OP is really saying is that successful teams need good QB play, good line play, and a decent pass rush. This is not news. The notion that you need a shutdown CB has basically been exploded by the success of the Pats, Packers, Giants, and Saints. Yet they all invest heavily in cb (how many high round picks or big dollar deals the last 2-3 years on those teams alone)- not valuing and not having aren't the same. And that lack of qb with schaub hurt is why they aren't a contender in most books. Further- they had one of the worst pass defenses ever and added a top cb. Also two top picks in the front 7. Not just wade. Edited January 13, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Which probowler LT played for the steelers all the past few years? Forget probowl LT, what about competent CB!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Forget probowl LT, what about competent CB!? And like I have said- you need two or three guys to replace that players value normally. They have an awesome front seven and Troy p behind him. Hit those 4 pretty solid, your a contender. Hit 2-3 and you need to have some special players to replace what your lacking. Bens a freak back there escaping pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yet they all invest heavily in cb (how many high round picks or big dollar deals the last 2-3 years on those teams alone)- not valuing and not having aren't the same. And that lack of qb with schaub hurt is why they aren't a contender in most books. Further- they had one of the worst pass defenses ever and added a top cb. Also two top picks in the front 7. Not just wade. Ok, so the key to success is to invest heavily in CB, even if you invest unwisely? Come on man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yet they all invest heavily in cb (how many high round picks or big dollar deals the last 2-3 years on those teams alone)- not valuing and not having aren't the same. And that lack of qb with schaub hurt is why they aren't a contender in most books. Further- they had one of the worst pass defenses ever and added a top cb. Also two top picks in the front 7. Not just wade. Of the 29 first round DB's taken since 2006, 15 were drafted to teams that made the playoffs THAT year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 They don't have an elite QB and they just made the playoffs for the first time ever, after switching to a new defense. Many would argue that Wade has been the biggest difference. The point is, when you get down to it, all the OP is really saying is that successful teams need good QB play, good line play, and a decent pass rush. This is not news. The notion that you need a shutdown CB has basically been exploded by the success of the Pats, Packers, Giants, and Saints. Of the three on the packers have dominant DBs IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And like I have said- you need two or three guys to replace that players value normally. They have an awesome front seven and Troy p behind him. Hit those 4 pretty solid, your a contender. Hit 2-3 and you need to have some special players to replace what your lacking. Bens a freak back there escaping pressure. Ask a learned Steelers fan about Troy sometime. They love it when he gambles right. The hate it when he gambles wrong. And believe me, the latter far outnumbers the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Of the three on the packers have dominant DBs IMO And the worst pass D in the history of the league... I mean really, how many twists and turns does this argument need to take before it runs out of steam?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And the worst pass D in the history of the league... I mean really, how many twists and turns does this argument need to take before it runs out of steam?? Did you watch many games? Miss all those picks they got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Houstons LT Duane brown was very good. Jonathan Joseph, their cb, was among the top FAs in the league They drafted several pass rushers lately. But now the arguments eroding from get outstanding players at 4 pillar positions and you are a contender, to have some pretty good players at some of these spots and good players at some other spots and you might be contender, which is equivalent to saying nothing at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Ok, so the key to success is to invest heavily in CB, even if you invest unwisely? Come on man... Pats are the only I'd say totally whiffed. Greer porter Jenkins and Harper are a good back 4 with Robinson, a young first rounder at nickel. Likewise with greenbay. When you score 40+ the other team gets lots of possessions and throws a ton. Makes your pass d look bad. Remember when we were a top pass d because everyone ran on us all day? Similar idea But now the arguments eroding from get outstanding players at 4 pillar positions and you are a contender, to have some pretty good players at some of these spots and good players at some other spots and you might be contender, which is equivalent to saying nothing at all... I'd take all 4 off any team discussed over our 4. If your missing some it takes a lot to replace it. Were talking top half of the league, typically top ten guys in the cases I mentioned with a top 2-3 guy at many spots. Jonathan Joseph isn't just a so-so kind of player. I'm not arguing you need the top 2-3 player at all 4 spots. I'm saying the teams best off at all 4 are typically your top notch superbowl contenders. And if your missing one completely but still contending it's probably as a result of 2-3 guys that fill the void created with outstanding play (no cb then numerous pass rushers and a playmaker safety, no LT then a great line otherwise and special qb and WR/RB etc....) Edited January 13, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And the worst pass D in the history of the league... I mean really, how many twists and turns does this argument need to take before it runs out of steam?? I don't see any steam. That is my point. There are no 4 magic pillars to guarantee success. It's a pretty complex formula and plenty of proven ways to win within that formula. The only common theme is you need to be really good at at least one phase of the game and succeed at exploiting match up advantages, which can happen at many different positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Of the 29 first round DB's taken since 2006, 15 were drafted to teams that made the playoffs THAT year. This has to be categorically false. I've been told hundreds of times that spending a 1st round pick on a CB will ruin a franchise and send it down a path of failure. Houstons LT Duane brown was very good. Jonathan Joseph, their cb, was among the top FAs in the league They drafted several pass rushers lately. Duane Brown was drafted in the mid 20s, IIRC. Also, ask the Rams how far repeatedly taking tackles at the top of the draft has gotten them. I'm not saying ignore OT, but there's a lot more to OL success than simply spending a high pick on an OT. Edited January 13, 2012 by Ramius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) This has to be categorically false. I've been told hundreds of times that spending a 1st round pick on a CB will ruin a franchise and send it down a path of failure. Duane Brown was drafted in the mid 20s, IIRC. Also, ask the Rams how far repeatedly taking tackles at the top of the draft has gotten them. I'm not saying ignore OT, but there's a lot more to OL success than simply spending a high pick on an OT. No ones arguing a top pick is automatically an all pro difference maker. Any pick can flop or succeed. Not directed at you but If you pay attention to the premise of the article, it's essentially that the teams with the highest average ranking (weighted towards qb) on those 4 positions are more successful then the ones that have big holes at any of those. It's odd that anyone is arguing against that. No one is saying hall of famers at all 4 are required to be above .500 If you get quality starters at all 4 your in great shape. Add an all pro at one and you ARE a contender. It's very rare you have 4 good players (say top half of the league) there and somehow aren't atleast in the playoffs. We are middle of the pack at 3- add a pass rusher and we are a wildcard quality team. Upgrade another and have either a better qb or more time for fitz and we are likely on the fringe of the actual contenders Edited January 13, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This has to be categorically false. I've been told hundreds of times that spending a 1st round pick on a CB will ruin a franchise and send it down a path of failure. Now I know you aren't old enough to remember the Bills ever being a winning organization, but back in the 1990's they used to draft a DB practically every year and subsequently go to the playoffs. That right there is proof that it is the way to build a winning team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Now I know you aren't old enough to remember the Bills ever being a winning organization, but back in the 1990's they used to draft a DB practically every year and subsequently go to the playoffs. That right there is proof that it is the way to build a winning team. Try again old timer. Started watching the Bills in 1987, when i was 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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