jjmac Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I disagree. Maybe Wade Phillips would not have made this a top defense with all the injuries but the point you are missing is that Phillips is a top DC in this league and has been for years. George Edwards is a nobody--a glorified position coach. You simply cannot make these two guys equivalent and then say, essentially, that NO DC could do anything with this roster. That's not a logical conclusion. It is much easier for me to believe that a veteran, intelligent defensive coordinator could have gotten better performance out of these guys than Edwards has. Chan picked Edwards becuase he wouldn't challenge Gailey's command and Nix is too simple to have asked why on Earth he was picking a guy like Edwards to totally revamp the defense with an entirely different scheme. Maybe so, but Phillips has had more talent than what is on this roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Maybe so, but Phillips has had more talent than what is on this roster. Look, this defense was giving up tons of points and yards when everyone was healthy. Phillips's "talent" was amongst the worst in the league a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjmac Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Look, this defense was giving up tons of points and yards when everyone was healthy. Phillips's "talent" was amongst the worst in the league a year ago. Last year they were in a 4-3, were they not? Not to mention the fact that there defense was better than ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I can't believe how everyone believes that firing our DC will miraculously make our defense so much improved. The real problem lies within the attempt to abandon a semi successful Tampa 2 (with noted flaws in run defense) to a pure 34. It is like trying to turn fat Jared (pre subway) into Arnold Schwartzeneggar (sp). It ain't happening overnight. It could of happened sooner if we got rid of everyone that didn't fit and draft and pay good money for players that did. We decided to build through the draft and run our hybrid 34 43 joke of a defense where we don't have the players to be successful at either. No DC can succeed with this situation (not even Wade Phillips). Until we have a true NT and at least 1 good OLB (I still hold out hope for Merriman) and quality depth we will never be successful. I am not totally against letting Edwards go at seasons end but he will sadly be a martyr to a front office and owner that are willing to let the team go a few more years without winning in the hopes to rebuild a long term foundation for success. Flame away! You forgot one thing: it's never Chan's fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Look at the success opposing QB's have had against the Bills, even when healthy in the 1st Half of Games...To me at least...This speaks specifically to poor preparation and the inability to Game Plan from week to week...The Bills, even with all the injuries, are not the least talented Team in the NFL...Granted they are far from the most talented...Nonetheless... A Coaches Job is to get the most out of what he's given...That's why, to this point I've got nothing against Gailey...I think overall Gailey has done FAR more with mediocre talent, especially at the QB position...So I give him a pass...But Edwards cant get the job done in preparation...And he's got to go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Last year they were in a 4-3, were they not? Not to mention the fact that there defense was better than ours. Last year the Bills were the same D scheme (4-3/3-4, whatever it is) as they are this year--and they were better than the Houston D in total yards and points (i.e., they were not "better" than ours). They say it is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Or, to quote my son's favorite movie: Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a box of scraps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjmac Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Last year the Bills were the same D scheme (4-3/3-4, whatever it is) as they are this year--and they were better than the Houston D in total yards and points (i.e., they were not "better" than ours). They say it is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Or, to quote my son's favorite movie: Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a box of scraps! The first goal in any scheme is to stop the run, and I believe we were last in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Isn't he the inside backers coach? Edwards is responsible for getting the most out of what he has to work with. Has he done that? I am not sure. I posted a month or so ago some numbers through the 1st 7 games to show that this D, when healthy was creating turnovers at a rate that was at or near the top of the league. This was no accident. We didn't have a lot of sacks, but was creating pressure and causing turnovers. We still gave up a ton of yardage, but we knew we still needed LB help. It wasn't just int's, we had a few fumble recoveries too. Once we lost Kyle and Merrimam you could see a differnce in the lack of pressure. So now our NT spot is weak, so we put Marcell in that spot, weakening the DE spot that was Marcell's.Now you throw in the loss of Troupe, Mcgee, A. Williams(for a few games), and G. Wilson for a few games. When healthy, the D helped win games even with a lack of top talent and depth(look at the turnover #'s and Def. TD's in the first 6-7 games). He got the most out of what he had to work with. Right now, he doesn't have much to work with. Now if we could get someone like Phillips, I'm alkl for it but I'm willing to give hime another season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Look at the success opposing QB's have had against the Bills, even when healthy in the 1st Half of Games...To me at least...This speaks specifically to poor preparation and the inability to Game Plan from week to week...The Bills, even with all the injuries, are not the least talented Team in the NFL...Granted they are far from the most talented...Nonetheless... A Coaches Job is to get the most out of what he's given...That's why, to this point I've got nothing against Gailey...I think overall Gailey has done FAR more with mediocre talent, especially at the QB position...So I give him a pass...But Edwards cant get the job done in preparation...And he's got to go... The Bills defensive game plan for each and every game is the same without much customization to suit the offense of a specific opponent. What it does is give the other team a high degree of certainty in what they are going to have to play against. This to me is a coaching and management issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 The first goal in any scheme is to stop the run, and I believe we were last in the league. The goal of any offense is to exploit the opposing Defense's weakness. Ours was run defense. Houston's was pass defense--they were the worst in the league. In total, they gave up slightly more points than the Bills D last season. Your stuck arguing from a losing position--you cannot alter the fact that the Houston D sucked last year and now they are a top D, only because of a change at DC. And you can't convincingly argue Edwards's failure is mainly due to injuries because when he had all his healthy players, he still produced a bad defense this season, his second in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Flame away! Here is why i believe that the DC is the problem. - He is nearing the end of his second season with little improvement to show for it save for improvement on the run D compared to last year - Players out of position: (1) Fiddling around with Moats at ILB when he was clearly more suited to be an OLB.(2) Johnson at LB (3) Keeping Andra Davis on the bench when we still give up huge runs up the middle. (4) Inability to use Maybin who, even if situational, has been productive for the Jets ...... - Two drafts almost all on D and still not showing improvement overall. Individually, several of these players (AWilliams, Searcy, Shep) have shown talent but they have not been able to work cohesively to improve the overall D performance I am aware that we changed scheme but in today's NFL, a turnaround should be possible in less than 2 seasons. Look at what (primarily) a coaching chanege did in San Francisco. Calling for his head is not scapegoating. He needs to go because he has proven himself to be incompetent and in over his head for this job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjmac Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 The goal of any offense is to exploit the opposing Defense's weakness. Ours was run defense. Houston's was pass defense--they were the worst in the league. In total, they gave up slightly more points than the Bills D last season. Your stuck arguing from a losing position--you cannot alter the fact that the Houston D sucked last year and now they are a top D, only because of a change at DC. And you can't convincingly argue Edwards's failure is mainly due to injuries because when he had all his healthy players, he still produced a bad defense this season, his second in the system. The change of DC AND the change of system AND the drafting of better players in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I can't believe how everyone believes that firing our DC will miraculously make our defense so much improved. The real problem lies within the attempt to abandon a semi successful Tampa 2 (with noted flaws in run defense) to a pure 34. It is like trying to turn fat Jared (pre subway) into Arnold Schwartzeneggar (sp). It ain't happening overnight. It could of happened sooner if we got rid of everyone that didn't fit and draft and pay good money for players that did. We decided to build through the draft and run our hybrid 34 43 joke of a defense where we don't have the players to be successful at either. No DC can succeed with this situation (not even Wade Phillips). Until we have a true NT and at least 1 good OLB (I still hold out hope for Merriman) and quality depth we will never be successful. I am not totally against letting Edwards go at seasons end but he will sadly be a martyr to a front office and owner that are willing to let the team go a few more years without winning in the hopes to rebuild a long term foundation for success. Flame away! No flames. I don't believe firing or DC will miraculously improve the defense. I do think bringing in a better DC would do so. There is a lot of history behind this - SF, GB, Texans all achieved miraculous D turn arounds with a coaching change and the addition of a few key players. Look, a quality DC either brings in the players to run the scheme he wants (which has a lot to do with the FO), or devises a D to fit the players he has (which has to do with the DC). It's not martyrdom when Edwards has done neither. Running a hybrid D with a bunch of young players is the worst idea of all because it requires players with the least experience, to understand and interpret even more complicated roles than NFL standard. Every time I hear interviews of players from teams with a recent a turn-around on D I hear the recurring them "coach really simplified things so we could just go out and play". Maybin may be exhibit M of this philosophy. Every time I hear interviews of players from the Bills I hear that players are out of position and missing assignments. Assuming our players have normal intelligence for NFL players, that's on the coaches. "Edwards the Martyr" is a nice story, and I don't buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I can't believe how everyone believes that firing our DC will miraculously make our defense so much improved. The real problem lies within the attempt to abandon a semi successful Tampa 2 (with noted flaws in run defense) to a pure 34. It is like trying to turn fat Jared (pre subway) into Arnold Schwartzeneggar (sp). It ain't happening overnight. It could of happened sooner if we got rid of everyone that didn't fit and draft and pay good money for players that did. We decided to build through the draft and run our hybrid 34 43 joke of a defense where we don't have the players to be successful at either. No DC can succeed with this situation (not even Wade Phillips). Until we have a true NT and at least 1 good OLB (I still hold out hope for Merriman) and quality depth we will never be successful. I am not totally against letting Edwards go at seasons end but he will sadly be a martyr to a front office and owner that are willing to let the team go a few more years without winning in the hopes to rebuild a long term foundation for success. Flame away! I here what you are saying and it has some merit to it , but think back to the past 4 years just as far as the D is concerned ------ ????? 4 yrs ago our D sucked !! Arron Schobel was out because of his foot ore than he was here & because he was out there was no pass rush !! He comes back the following year still the same Schobel he gets double digit sacks , Byrd goes nuts with INT's (because there is a pass rush) our D is the only thing that year that was half way decent !! Because of that DJ get's let go in steps Perry . Last year Schobel is unsure of his future holds out , Nix is tired of playing the waiting game & let's him go . Again there is NO pass rush our D is run through like air through a screen door & we are one of the last D units in the league . No INT's , no positive turn over margin what so ever !! Here's where it get's good . We bring in Merriman the last part of last year & i will agree last year was a waist of money having him here , then they sign him to an extension & a lot of the Bills fans go off saying it was a waist all the way around well all of you that said that are stupid !! I say that because if you look back on this season when in all facets of the games things were clicking our D (because of the pass rush) meaning the sheer presents of Merriman & even a half healthy Williams our D was stopping teams enough for us to win games . We had INT's (pass rush) we had QB hurries ( pass rush) we had FF .. Merriman goes down for the year our D is still O.K. but lacks PASS RUSH then Williams went out & from those 2 going down i don't care what any one of you say our D was DONE !!!! Not Edwards (although i would like to see him replaced & think some one named Wanny could be a better D coordinator) but when Merriman comes back next year & makes all of you eat your words i for one will be gloating & with another pass rusher taken in this years draft with Williams back more healthy than he has been since college , & certain additions & subtractions i think our D is going to be at least in the middle of the league if not higher !! GO BILLS !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Ask Houston and New Orleans if it was worth it to hire someone with proven success as a D.C. at the NFL level. To me, it's really that simple. I don't want some career LB coach running the D anymore. The only thing that he has proven is that he can consistently run a defense that will end up in the bottom 3 of the league. It's not about a big name, per se. It's about a proven track record. I'm tired of coaches cutting their teeth in the most important coaching positions for the Bills. Get someone in here that's been there and done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 The first goal in any scheme is to stop the run, and I believe we were last in the league. Last year we gave up 4.8 ypa against the run. This year we have so far given up 4.8 ypa against the run. Last year we were dead last in total yards given up. This year we look to have a few teams worse than we are. I don't believe it's much an improvement if we give up the same number of yards every time the other guy tries.to run, and have fewer attempts against the run for some reason. If we aren't dead last in the league this year, we can certainly see dead last from our current position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booger Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 I here what you are saying and it has some merit to it , but think back to the past 4 years just as far as the D is concerned ------ ????? 4 yrs ago our D sucked !! Arron Schobel was out because of his foot ore than he was here & because he was out there was no pass rush !! He comes back the following year still the same Schobel he gets double digit sacks , Byrd goes nuts with INT's (because there is a pass rush) our D is the only thing that year that was half way decent !! Because of that DJ get's let go in steps Perry . Last year Schobel is unsure of his future holds out , Nix is tired of playing the waiting game & let's him go . Again there is NO pass rush our D is run through like air through a screen door & we are one of the last D units in the league . No INT's , no positive turn over margin what so ever !! Here's where it get's good . We bring in Merriman the last part of last year & i will agree last year was a waist of money having him here , then they sign him to an extension & a lot of the Bills fans go off saying it was a waist all the way around well all of you that said that are stupid !! I say that because if you look back on this season when in all facets of the games things were clicking our D (because of the pass rush) meaning the sheer presents of Merriman & even a half healthy Williams our D was stopping teams enough for us to win games . We had INT's (pass rush) we had QB hurries ( pass rush) we had FF .. Merriman goes down for the year our D is still O.K. but lacks PASS RUSH then Williams went out & from those 2 going down i don't care what any one of you say our D was DONE !!!! Not Edwards (although i would like to see him replaced & think some one named Wanny could be a better D coordinator) but when Merriman comes back next year & makes all of you eat your words i for one will be gloating & with another pass rusher taken in this years draft with Williams back more healthy than he has been since college , & certain additions & subtractions i think our D is going to be at least in the middle of the league if not higher !! GO BILLS !!! ENOUGH with the Merriman crap. Guy has missed 4 of the last 5 years. HE IS DONE. Merriman is not the savior of the Bills D. He is DONE in the NFL: 1. D Coordinator is done in Buffalo. Even if he has been "OK" he is not on the same level as Gailey. A bigger ego is needed at D coordinator. The Bills need a Lebeau type (funny they had him) 2. Merriman experiment is done. Loved him, routed for him, but at this point he is a liability knowing he is going to get hurt. 3. Buffalo needs to switch back to a 4-3 to utilize their two best players properly. The Defense should be built around your 2 best players. I cannot imagine us in 5 year talking the same stuff on this board saying "back in 2011 or 2012 the Bills really should have built their D around their 2 best players"....DO IT NOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjmac Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Last year we gave up 4.8 ypa against the run. This year we have so far given up 4.8 ypa against the run. Last year we were dead last in total yards given up. This year we look to have a few teams worse than we are. I don't believe it's much an improvement if we give up the same number of yards every time the other guy tries.to run, and have fewer attempts against the run for some reason. If we aren't dead last in the league this year, we can certainly see dead last from our current position. We have not yet done enough drafting (especially at OLB) to stop the bleeding. Edited December 21, 2011 by jjmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1B4IDie Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Ask Houston and New Orleans if it was worth it to hire someone with proven success as a D.C. at the NFL level. To me, it's really that simple. I don't want some career LB coach running the D anymore. The only thing that he has proven is that he can consistently run a defense that will end up in the bottom 3 of the league. It's not about a big name, per se. It's about a proven track record. I'm tired of coaches cutting their teeth in the most important coaching positions for the Bills. Get someone in here that's been there and done that. Seriously. Is it too much to ask to have a D-Co that was a good D-Co in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booger Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 I had started a topic the other day about the 3-4 and 4-3 and what the Bills may be more suited for. I have been thinking about this after reading up on people's responses and I am becoming more and more amazed (not at the posters, but the Bills). Many people have stated that the Bills are closer to the 3-4 vs. the 4-3 with their current roster...the way I look at it is WHO CARES. Either way they stink...either way there are holes to fill. I see the Bills going down the path of stink defense's for the next 3-5 years running the 3-4 and at some point everyone looking back and saying..."you know for the last 3, 4, 5, years the Bills have really been playing out of position".....We have 2 Very Good players in Williams and Darius...why are they not building the D around their greatest strengths? Putting them both in at DT? The more and more I think about it, the more and more I am amazed. This is soon to be on par with the Bills drafting Maybin over some other players because they had their minds made up and could not accept the fact that another player (a better player) may fall into their laps. While I commend the pick of Darius and I believe it was a gift for him to fall to Buffalo...At that immediate second the Bills should be planning to build around him as a franchise player. Please dont tell me "they are, him as a DE"...that would be like saying Detroit drafted Suh as a DE.... The fact of the matter is Gailey has it predetermined in his mind to switch to the 3-4...dangerous path to go down. Just the same as wanting CJ Spiller. Now, Spiller is looking a little better (still goes down to easy), BUT at the time we had Jackson and Lynch and Lynch was FINE sharing the load with Jackson. There were bigger needs there. THIS IS WHY THE BILLS CONTINUE TO FAIL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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