maddenboy Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Lemme ax ya dis: There are 32 teams. There are probably 18 non-kicker positions on a football team. (qb, rb, wr, te, RT, LT, LG, RG, C, RDE, NT, LDE, WLB, SLB, ILB, CB, Safety) When was the last time the bills had an UN-arguable top 5 player at his position in the nfl? Dare I ask for 2 at the same time? Right now we have Freddie (injured). Kyle is not un-arguable, but I'd make the argument anyway. Moorman is past his prime, and a kicker. I know its bad drafts, but is it too much to ask? Nate Clements? Eric Moulds? Help me out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) Not sure how you establish "in-arguable". Stats? Pro bowl? Sports writers poll? But this year I'd say wood was in top 5 centers. Evans probably had a year or 2 where he was borderline top 5. Fletcher could be another at MLB. Spikes too before the injury Edited November 25, 2011 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I would say there are three on the Bills right now, unfortunately all three are now on the IR list: Kyle Williams, Fred Jackson, and Eric Wood . . . which of course, also explains one big reason why you go from 4-1 to 5-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 How long are we talking? One season or a sustained run. I can't think of anyone who was a perennial top 5 player. Maybe Moulds in the late 90's. Spikes had a run before his injury where it looked like he was one of the best 43 OLBs in the league. Clements and Schobel were great players for us but I think there were more dominant guys at their positions around the league when they were playing. I guess Moulds would be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I think you could certainly make an argument for McKelvin being one of the top 3-4 CB's in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I think you could certainly make an argument for McKelvin being one of the top 3-4 CB's in the league. Which league might that be in which McKelvin is one of the top cornerbacks? =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuSeYiN1978 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I think you could certainly make an argument for McKelvin being one of the top 3-4 CB's in the league. Putting a hall of famer like McKelvin on that list is ridiculous cuz it's already obvious... I would have to say Dave Rayner is definitely top 5 oh wait he's a kicker... ummmmm, I'm gonna go with Marcus Easley on this one... and James Hardy wasn't so bad either... I know some of you were probably thinking about putting Levi Brown on that list too but i would have to go with Brian Brohm as a definite top 5 in his position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Lemme ax ya dis: There are 32 teams. There are probably 18 non-kicker positions on a football team. (qb, rb, wr, te, RT, LT, LG, RG, C, RDE, NT, LDE, WLB, SLB, ILB, CB, Safety) When was the last time the bills had an UN-arguable top 5 player at his position in the nfl? Dare I ask for 2 at the same time? Right now we have Freddie (injured). Kyle is not un-arguable, but I'd make the argument anyway. Moorman is past his prime, and a kicker. I know its bad drafts, but is it too much to ask? Nate Clements? Eric Moulds? Help me out here. I would say unless you include kickers and punters, it has been almost 15 years since we had a top five at any position, where as Moorman would have qualified for a few years a little while back. Freddie was having a great season, but he still would have been outside the top 5 at RB. Sadly, we have had way more bottom 5 players at positions then top 5. Williams can be great, but doesn't have the resume to be top 5 yet, maybe top 8-10. How long are we talking? One season or a sustained run. I can't think of anyone who was a perennial top 5 player. Maybe Moulds in the late 90's. Spikes had a run before his injury where it looked like he was one of the best 43 OLBs in the league. Clements and Schobel were great players for us but I think there were more dominant guys at their positions around the league when they were playing. I guess Moulds would be it. Moulds would be right by the line of top 5. I would say for a year or two, Paup was a top 5 for sure. Ruben Brown might have been top 5. Schobel was Pro Bowl for a few years, but top 5 not sure. Don't even think Clements went to the Pro Bowl. Guess the saddest thing is, even the borderline top 5 players on the Bills, are a decade ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddenboy Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Thanks for the replies. So then the next question becomes, why? Draft is obvious. We could have had Ngata, Orakpo, Gronkowski, etc. "Ralph is cheap" is probably only a small part. He did shell out for T.O. And being real about it, its hard to lure a top five Free Agent to play here. COACHING has to be a big part of it. Look at the teams that build from within. Last week when the Packers were on, they flashed a stat that 47 of the 53 players have never played for another team. That's about DEVELOPMENT at least as much as DRAFTING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the replies. So then the next question becomes, why? Draft is obvious. We could have had Ngata, Orakpo, Gronkowski, etc. "Ralph is cheap" is probably only a small part. He did shell out for T.O. And being real about it, its hard to lure a top five Free Agent to play here. COACHING has to be a big part of it. Look at the teams that build from within. Last week when the Packers were on, they flashed a stat that 47 of the 53 players have never played for another team. That's about DEVELOPMENT at least as much as DRAFTING. The draft is the biggest part, but Ralph is Cheap is a bigger part of the problem then you say. Yes he did sign T.O.-to a one year contract when ticket sales were down, and the signing did just what he wanted it to do-sell tickets. When was the last time we signed a top level free agent? Paup? Spikes? Spielman? either way it has been almost a decade. You can't pin this teams futility on just one thing, this organization is bad from top to bottom and has been for years at everything except making money. Edited November 26, 2011 by billsfreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 I would put George Wilson as one of the better S in the league the guy is all heart !!! All the others are on IR & if Stevie was healthy i migh consider him in the top ten too !! So possibly 5 all together & Dareus ain't no slouch for a rookie !!! GO BILLS !!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrules Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 I think you could certainly make an argument for McKelvin being one of the top 3-4 CB's in the league. Don't know what you are smokin' but I want some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Thanks for the replies. So then the next question becomes, why? Draft is obvious. We could have had Ngata, Orakpo, Gronkowski, etc. "Ralph is cheap" is probably only a small part. He did shell out for T.O. And being real about it, its hard to lure a top five Free Agent to play here. COACHING has to be a big part of it. Look at the teams that build from within. Last week when the Packers were on, they flashed a stat that 47 of the 53 players have never played for another team. That's about DEVELOPMENT at least as much as DRAFTING. All the coaching changes have meant drafting for need rather than best player available. That explains the miss on ngata and others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddenboy Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 Pretty much. The funny thing is, in hindsight, what we needed every draft was the best player we could find. The Bills have never been 1 or 2 players away from a championship during this stretch, so what they should have been doing all along is going with the BPA, and then a few years later you can fill "needs" around that nucleus of BPAs. The current way is so ass-backward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Current: Wilson, Williams, Jackson, Moorman, Wood Past: Brown, Paup, Sam Adams, Washington, Peters, Henry, Clements, Moulds, Evans, there were more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Pretty much. The funny thing is, in hindsight, what we needed every draft was the best player we could find. The Bills have never been 1 or 2 players away from a championship during this stretch, so what they should have been doing all along is going with the BPA, and then a few years later you can fill "needs" around that nucleus of BPAs. The current way is so ass-backward. Couldn't agree more. Plenty of "systems" have proven to be effective and super bowl worthy. Not a single one works with mediocre players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 I think you could certainly make an argument for McKelvin being one of the top 3-4 CB's in the league. I was thinking the same thing - interceptions are really not a good indicator...the yellow flags and being manhandled on the LOS show that he plays with heart and his stiff neck (inability to turn and look at the ball) is a good quality that is overlooked by many. How about special teams?? Can't we put Brad Smith on this list as a special teamer? He is averaging 18 yds on kickoff returns and has 79% kneel downs...the man is a fortress back there and has solid hands when the ball gets to him..... I mean who has had the most catches in the end zone this year for the Bills?? Brad "f'n" Smith, that's who. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddenboy Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 I guess my bottom line is to stop pretending we arent in need of a FULL rebuild. Year 1: Draft me a bunch of linebackers. Lets build a dominant unit. (Pittsburgh knows you can never have enuf linebackers). Year 2: Draft me a couple of OTs. In the first 2 rounds, please. Then sprinkle me some WRs and TEs. Year 3: Draft me DLs and CBs. These positions dont take as long to learn, so I dont need them in the early years. Year 4: Draft me some "need" positions. Now that I know what I actually need to win a superbowl. Of course some picks wont pan out. But when you develop a nucleus, with a plan, you should see results. And I did not mention QB. Try to find the next Brady in the later rounds. If it doesnt work out, then in year 4 you are 1 or 2 players away from seriously competing, so you can reach for a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Lemme ax ya dis: There are 32 teams. There are probably 18 non-kicker positions on a football team. (qb, rb, wr, te, RT, LT, LG, RG, C, RDE, NT, LDE, WLB, SLB, ILB, CB, Safety) When was the last time the bills had an UN-arguable top 5 player at his position in the nfl? Dare I ask for 2 at the same time? Right now we have Freddie (injured). Kyle is not un-arguable, but I'd make the argument anyway. Moorman is past his prime, and a kicker. I know its bad drafts, but is it too much to ask? Nate Clements? Eric Moulds? Help me out here. Jason Peters. And how did the Bills handle it? They spent a combined $70 million on Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker, leaving the team's best player grossly underpaid on his own line. A winning organization would never do such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2003Contenders Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Jason Peters. And how did the Bills handle it? They spent a combined $70 million on Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker, leaving the team's best player grossly underpaid on his own line. A winning organization would never do such a thing. Excellent point, and it does somewhat shoot holes in the "Ralph is Cheap!" crowd. Well maybe not. Ralph has simply never understood the importance of spending money on his coaches, scouting and front office folks -- but is willing to spend top dollar on 2nd (or 3rd) rate players! One thing that has always bugged me is that at the press conference announcing his hiring, Chan made it a point to emphasize that the DC he was going to hire was not going to be a household name. Then it took a number of weeks to find such a guy in George Edwards. Why would Chan, an offensive coach by trade, want to hire a DC who wasn't a top notch choice? Clearly, he was given parameters on how much he could spend on a DC. The Bills are saddled with goons who: 1. Do a poor job of player scouting (drafts and free agency) 2. Do a poor job of player development (coaching) 3. Have trouble keeping the players healthy (conditioning) I really find it hard to believe that Ralph is himself such a meddler, but I suspect that he lets his bean counters dictate too much of what happens at OBD. I call this penny wise and pound foolish on Ralph's part. A consistently competitive football team would generate much more revenue than the foolish penny pinching saves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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