Orton's Arm Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) If I was building a 3-4 defense, I'd want a very good DE, NT, pass rushing OLB, and #1 CB. __________________Late '90s team____Present team Good DE_________Bruce Smith/Wiley____Dareus Good NT_________Ted Washington____Kyle Williams Pass rushing OLB Bryce Paup_________Merriman Good #1 CB______ Antoine Winfield_____TBD Another similarity is that the teams of the late '90s had weak offensive lines. ____________________Late '90s team______Present team Below average LT____John Fina__________Demetrius Bell Below average RT_____some random guy____Pears Good OG_________ Ruben Brown_____ Andy Levitre Both teams had QBs who showed flashes, but who were never able to become the long-term answer at the position. Doug Flutie had some good games, until defenses learned that when you play him you take away the short stuff and dare him to beat you deep. Rob Johnson had some good performances until defenses decided to blitz him to death and dare him to beat them with quick throws and pocket awareness! Fitz also has some very positive attributes, as well as an Achilles Heel (his lack of consistent accuracy). The team of the late '90s had a good WR corps led by Eric Moulds and Peerless Price. It also had a pretty good TE in the form of Jay Riemersma. There are some intriguing possibilities on this Bills team's WR corps, but it currently seems weaker (especially at TE) than did the teams of the late '90s. The teams of the late '90s were known for having significantly better defenses than offenses, and I suspect the same will also be true of this year's Bills team. Overall the teams of the late '90s seemed better. They had a better version of the 3-4, the better #1 CB in Winfield, the better TE, and probably the better receiving corps. Partially offsetting all that is the fact that Gailey is a far more innovative offensive mind than anyone on the coaching staff of the late '90s Bills. Edited September 9, 2011 by Edwards' Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sllib olaffub Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I can see the temptation to compare our Bills of now to Bills teams of the past, especially the high standard of the early 90's. IMO, though, the Bills of now are not like any Bills team I remember. I only remember the Bills as far back as 87-88, though. The Bills that I first watched were winners. They not only had confidence, but arrogance. They were sound in just about every respect - and their coaching was top notch, too. Their talent was high, and Buffalo was the team that every team in the AFC had to go through to get to the top. That was so good. Then, the team of the Flutie years, with the excellent defense. That was a team that was one sided, but was still a team that had a reputation, a legacy, sort of, although it was changing, maybe starting to get left behind by other systems and franchises - I think that image really captured them, that of an old Champion, still very tough, still good at some things - dangerous, but his time is short, and he's hanging on. We could have won that SuperBowl that the Rams ended up winning - our defense was good enough. Could have. And then you have the ineptitude all around of a team that, by all appearances, was (through the fault of ownership) satisfied with having been great, and since it had achieved greatness for so long had become used to greatness, had gotten to the point where it took excellence for granted - it was assumed that the Bills would be good. And, it was assumed that being good was the Bills, i.e, that the Bills didn't have to change to return to greatness. Ralph assumed that having been there as he was he knew how to do it and if it wasn't working at the moment (the whole of the 2000's) then it wasn't because he was doing it wrong, but because he didn't have the right people below him. Frankly, his model was outdated and he didn't seem to care too much about putting into the team the kind of effort that is normally associated with youth - eagerness, willingness to try new things, the desire to out-do others, in short, he was too old to compete anymore, and his team reflected that out-datedness. And now we have a team - that when I look at it, I don't see a team of old. I see a mystery. I want to know what this team is all about. I want to know if the defense is going to play with attitufe. Are we going to go out and stuff people, and hit hard, and become a team that I can easily envision being talked of as "that nasty Bills Defense" - you know, a unit with identity. Are we going to be able to move the ball consistently? I watched Aaron Rodgers make passes last night of the twenty yard variety on 3rd and 12 or so and the Packers made those plays look easy - and those plays should be easy! This is the NFL - these guys are the best in the world. Twenty yards isn't that far! Fitz should be able to hit a playing card from twenty yards. Let this year be the year we find out who these Bills are under Nix and Gailey. I suspect we'll get a better look of who and what the defense is going to be, and we'll have to wait until next year to really see Gailey's best work on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 __________________Late '90s team____Present team Good DE_________Bruce Smith/Wiley____Dareus Good NT_________Ted Washington____Kyle Williams Pass rushing OLB Bryce Paup_________Merriman Good #1 CB______ Antoine Winfield_____TBD Another similarity is that the teams of the late '90s had weak offensive lines. ____________________Late '90s team______Present team Below average LT____John Fina__________Demetrius Bell Below average RT_____some random guy____Pears Good OG_________ Ruben Brown_____ Andy Levitre Except that when you look at the comparisons you've made, the late 90s team is better in single every one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7boogiewoogie Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I can see the temptation to compare our Bills of now to Bills teams of the past, especially the high standard of the early 90's. IMO, though, the Bills of now are not like any Bills team I remember. I only remember the Bills as far back as 87-88, though. The Bills that I first watched were winners. They not only had confidence, but arrogance. They were sound in just about every respect - and their coaching was top notch, too. Their talent was high, and Buffalo was the team that every team in the AFC had to go through to get to the top. That was so good. Then, the team of the Flutie years, with the excellent defense. That was a team that was one sided, but was still a team that had a reputation, a legacy, sort of, although it was changing, maybe starting to get left behind by other systems and franchises - I think that image really captured them, that of an old Champion, still very tough, still good at some things - dangerous, but his time is short, and he's hanging on. We could have won that SuperBowl that the Rams ended up winning - our defense was good enough. Could have. And then you have the ineptitude all around of a team that, by all appearances, was (through the fault of ownership) satisfied with having been great, and since it had achieved greatness for so long had become used to greatness, had gotten to the point where it took excellence for granted - it was assumed that the Bills would be good. And, it was assumed that being good was the Bills, i.e, that the Bills didn't have to change to return to greatness. Ralph assumed that having been there as he was he knew how to do it and if it wasn't working at the moment (the whole of the 2000's) then it wasn't because he was doing it wrong, but because he didn't have the right people below him. Frankly, his model was outdated and he didn't seem to care too much about putting into the team the kind of effort that is normally associated with youth - eagerness, willingness to try new things, the desire to out-do others, in short, he was too old to compete anymore, and his team reflected that out-datedness. And now we have a team - that when I look at it, I don't see a team of old. I see a mystery. I want to know what this team is all about. I want to know if the defense is going to play with attitufe. Are we going to go out and stuff people, and hit hard, and become a team that I can easily envision being talked of as "that nasty Bills Defense" - you know, a unit with identity. Are we going to be able to move the ball consistently? I watched Aaron Rodgers make passes last night of the twenty yard variety on 3rd and 12 or so and the Packers made those plays look easy - and those plays should be easy! This is the NFL - these guys are the best in the world. Twenty yards isn't that far! Fitz should be able to hit a playing card from twenty yards. Let this year be the year we find out who these Bills are under Nix and Gailey. I suspect we'll get a better look of who and what the defense is going to be, and we'll have to wait until next year to really see Gailey's best work on offense. Very well said, however I will say this, something happened last year when I watched this team, despite their losing record I noticed that this team started to create an identity. For the 1st time in a very long time I felt this organization FINALLY was building a solid foundation for the future and my feelings I'm sure will be backed up by what I feel were solid personnel moves to really shore up what there biggest problem was last year, their D. I like the additions of Merriman, Barnett, and Morrison and with the kind of guys we have with our front 3 in Williams, Dareus and Edwards there seems to be a nice blend of veteran leadership and hungry new blood. Of course we'll see if it translates on the field but after looking at these guys in camp and in preseason it appears we FINALLY have an exceptional defense with descent depth. Baby steps, GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenseWins Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 If I was building a 3-4 defense, I'd want a very good DE, NT, pass rushing OLB, and #1 CB. __________________Late '90s team____Present team Good DE_________Bruce Smith/Wiley____Dareus Good NT_________Ted Washington____Kyle Williams Pass rushing OLB Bryce Paup_________Merriman Good #1 CB______ Antoine Winfield_____TBD Another similarity is that the teams of the late '90s had weak offensive lines. ____________________Late '90s team______Present team Below average LT____John Fina__________Demetrius Bell Below average RT_____some random guy____Pears Good OG_________ Ruben Brown_____ Andy Levitre Both teams had QBs who showed flashes, but who were never able to become the long-term answer at the position. Doug Flutie had some good games, until defenses learned that when you play him you take away the short stuff and dare him to beat you deep. Rob Johnson had some good performances until defenses decided to blitz him to death and dare him to beat them with quick throws and pocket awareness! Fitz also has some very positive attributes, as well as an Achilles Heel (his lack of consistent accuracy). The team of the late '90s had a good WR corps led by Eric Moulds and Peerless Price. It also had a pretty good TE in the form of Jay Riemersma. There are some intriguing possibilities on this Bills team's WR corps, but it currently seems weaker (especially at TE) than did the teams of the late '90s. The teams of the late '90s were known for having significantly better defenses than offenses, and I suspect the same will also be true of this year's Bills team. Overall the teams of the late '90s seemed better. They had a better version of the 3-4, the better #1 CB in Winfield, the better TE, and probably the better receiving corps. Partially offsetting all that is the fact that Gailey is a far more innovative offensive mind than anyone on the coaching staff of the late '90s Bills. There is simply no comparison between this years OL and that of 1998 for example... Both John Fina and Ruben Brown were 1st round draft picks. No one on this years line was picked anywhere near that high... Ruben went to multiple Pro Bowls... Nobody on today's OL has any realistic chance of going to the ProBowl... 1998 for example had Moulds and Reed as WRs... Today we have "Mr God, Why Did You Do Me Like That?" and nobody else who is proven... Stop drinkin the Kool Aid.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 This team is actually a lot closer to 1985 than the late 90s teams. Offense QB-Fitzpatrick is better than Mathison/Ferragamo, but like 1985, the franchise QB could be arriving next year (there will be more than just Luck in next year's draft). Actually, in 1985 the Bills had a younger version of Fitzpatrick in Frank Reich. RB-One could argue that the 1985 team with Bell & Cribbs and Riddick on IR had the edge. FB-McIntyre isn't much better than Moore/Steels WR-Edge to 1985-Butler, a rookie named Andre Reed, Burkett etal to Stevie, Roscoe, Jones etal. O-Line-The 1985 line of Jones, Ritcher, Grant, Vogler, Devlin and Joe D in reserve was no worse and possibly better than this line. TE-Metzelaars was light years ahead of anyone this team has. Offense-outside of QB, 1985's offense had more talent, and Frank Reich, while he wasn't ready had a pretty good career as a backup when called upon later in his career (isn't that an understatement). Defense DL-1985-A rookie who would turn out to be the greatest defensive player in Bills history vs 2011's rookie, Smerlas who ended up on the Wall vs Williams, and a journeyman at the other DE spot for both teams. LB-2011 looks stronger, but there are still question marks. 1985 had Haslett & Marve on their last legs & a young, underutilized, Darryl Talley. DBs-2011 looks stronger Defense-While 2011 looks better, three of the greatest Bills of all time, all Wall of Famers, were on the 1985 team. Can anyone guarantee that 3 defensive players from the 2011 team will include a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and 2 other Wall of Famers? Special Teams Return game-Wilson & Hill returned punts, Wilson and Steels were the kick returners. The 2011 team has greater potential, but kickoff returns may be nullified by the new rules. K & P-Very comparable-I'd say equal-Norwood & Kidd in 1985=Lindell & Moorman in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandemonium Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 There is simply no comparison between this years OL and that of 1998 for example... Both John Fina and Ruben Brown were 1st round draft picks. No one on this years line was picked anywhere near that high... Ruben went to multiple Pro Bowls... Nobody on today's OL has any realistic chance of going to the ProBowl... 1998 for example had Moulds and Reed as WRs... Today we have "Mr God, Why Did You Do Me Like That?" and nobody else who is proven... Stop drinkin the Kool Aid.... Yeah, 28th overall (Wood) is nowhere near 27th overall (Fina) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whites Bay Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Apologies for driving the "Melancholy Express" over a couple of potholes and then onto a sidewalk crowded with children, but whenever I think of Ruben Brown, all I can hear is "Holding, number 79, Offense, 10-yard penalty, repeat third down". Great man, done a lot for Buffalo, can't take anything away from his enthusiasm for the city or from his foundation....BUT.....someone should have used some duct tape to keep his hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 If we have THAT kind of team this year, I'll be thrilled. That last little run was the last time they'be been entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 The teams of the late '90s were known for having significantly better defenses than offenses, and I suspect the same will also be true of this year's Bills team. Overall the teams of the late '90s seemed better. They had a better version of the 3-4, the better #1 CB in Winfield, the better TE, and probably the better receiving corps. Partially offsetting all that is the fact that Gailey is a far more innovative offensive mind than anyone on the coaching staff of the late '90s Bills. They also had a better Defensive Coordinator in Wade Philips who was the master of running the 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmjoyce113 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I will agree that the whole Merriman thing has a Bryce Paul feeling about it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Here's one similarity...in 1987 everyone thought our O-line sucked. A few years later the same guys led us to 4 Super Bowls. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Flowers Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) Here's one similarity...in 1987 everyone thought our O-line sucked. A few years later the same guys led us to 4 Super Bowls. PTR BS. Do you just make this stuff up? Who says hull sucked in 87. Have a link? Wolford was young, but Ritcher was a solid vet by then. Vogler and devlin were both supplanted by Davis and Ballard by 1990. Hell, Davis and Ballard weren't even on the team in 87 If I was building a 3-4 defense, I'd want a very good DE, NT, pass rushing OLB, and #1 CB. __________________Late '90s team____Present team Good DE_________Bruce Smith/Wiley____Dareus Good NT_________Ted Washington____Kyle Williams Pass rushing OLB Bryce Paup_________Merriman Good #1 CB______ Antoine Winfield_____TBD Another similarity is that the teams of the late '90s had weak offensive lines. ____________________Late '90s team______Present team Below average LT____John Fina__________Demetrius Bell Below average RT_____some random guy____Pears Good OG_________ Ruben Brown_____ Andy Levitre Both teams had QBs who showed flashes, but who were never able to become the long-term answer at the position. Doug Flutie had some good games, until defenses learned that when you play him you take away the short stuff and dare him to beat you deep. Rob Johnson had some good performances until defenses decided to blitz him to death and dare him to beat them with quick throws and pocket awareness! Fitz also has some very positive attributes, as well as an Achilles Heel (his lack of consistent accuracy). The team of the late '90s had a good WR corps led by Eric Moulds and Peerless Price. It also had a pretty good TE in the form of Jay Riemersma. There are some intriguing possibilities on this Bills team's WR corps, but it currently seems weaker (especially at TE) than did the teams of the late '90s. The teams of the late '90s were known for having significantly better defenses than offenses, and I suspect the same will also be true of this year's Bills team. Overall the teams of the late '90s seemed better. They had a better version of the 3-4, the better #1 CB in Winfield, the better TE, and probably the better receiving corps. Partially offsetting all that is the fact that Gailey is a far more innovative offensive mind than anyone on the coaching staff of the late '90s Bills. Late 90's when?. The players you are referring to seem to picked from about a five year period. Edited September 10, 2011 by Erik Flowers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin' Rob Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Hhhhmmmm. not me. reminds me of the lions, minus the QB, of last year more than the bills of the late 90's. Big rookie dl. good defensive FA'S, solid young wr(megatron>stevie right now) spiller/best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) I can see the temptation to compare our Bills of now to Bills teams of the past, especially the high standard of the early 90's. IMO, though, the Bills of now are not like any Bills team I remember. I only remember the Bills as far back as 87-88, though. The Bills that I first watched were winners. They not only had confidence, but arrogance. They were sound in just about every respect - and their coaching was top notch, too. Their talent was high, and Buffalo was the team that every team in the AFC had to go through to get to the top. That was so good. Then, the team of the Flutie years, with the excellent defense. That was a team that was one sided, but was still a team that had a reputation, a legacy, sort of, although it was changing, maybe starting to get left behind by other systems and franchises - I think that image really captured them, that of an old Champion, still very tough, still good at some things - dangerous, but his time is short, and he's hanging on. We could have won that SuperBowl that the Rams ended up winning - our defense was good enough. Could have. And then you have the ineptitude all around of a team that, by all appearances, was (through the fault of ownership) satisfied with having been great, and since it had achieved greatness for so long had become used to greatness, had gotten to the point where it took excellence for granted - it was assumed that the Bills would be good. And, it was assumed that being good was the Bills, i.e, that the Bills didn't have to change to return to greatness. Ralph assumed that having been there as he was he knew how to do it and if it wasn't working at the moment (the whole of the 2000's) then it wasn't because he was doing it wrong, but because he didn't have the right people below him. Frankly, his model was outdated and he didn't seem to care too much about putting into the team the kind of effort that is normally associated with youth - eagerness, willingness to try new things, the desire to out-do others, in short, he was too old to compete anymore, and his team reflected that out-datedness. And now we have a team - that when I look at it, I don't see a team of old. I see a mystery. I want to know what this team is all about. I want to know if the defense is going to play with attitufe. Are we going to go out and stuff people, and hit hard, and become a team that I can easily envision being talked of as "that nasty Bills Defense" - you know, a unit with identity. Are we going to be able to move the ball consistently? I watched Aaron Rodgers make passes last night of the twenty yard variety on 3rd and 12 or so and the Packers made those plays look easy - and those plays should be easy! This is the NFL - these guys are the best in the world. Twenty yards isn't that far! Fitz should be able to hit a playing card from twenty yards. Let this year be the year we find out who these Bills are under Nix and Gailey. I suspect we'll get a better look of who and what the defense is going to be, and we'll have to wait until next year to really see Gailey's best work on offense. Good post. You've made an excellent point in that the Bills of the late '90s were an aging team, whereas this is a young team. I also agree that the Bills began their decline in the mid to late '90s. While complacency may have played a role in that decline, I think the main driving factor was the fact that Polian's replacements weren't as capable as he was. (Edit: an argument could be made that the decline began as early as the 1992 draft. That was Butler's first as GM, and he began by using his first round pick on John Fina. He obtained fairly little from the '92, '93, and '94 drafts, and not much in '95 except for Ruben Brown.) One poster pointed out that in every comparison I made, the late '90s Bills were better than the team of today. He made a good point. This year's defense will probably be a step or two below the defenses of the late '90s. (And I agree with whoever said that Wade Phillips is a better defensive coordinator than anyone the Bills currently have.) Edited September 10, 2011 by Edwards' Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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