UFO Found on Ocean Floor?

[4merper4mer]

 

 

Please explain the "It ain't happening, ever, sorry" comment.

Why not? It might happen tomorrow. Or it might never happen. As you yourself wrote, we don't know the odds nor can we calculate them.

 

 

The odds are hard to calculate for life existing elsewhere based on what we know of science. The numbers of star systems and planets has pretty much already been proven to be a number beyond our comprehension. So we actually already have our answer. Life is UNCOMMON. At least intelligent life is uncommon by definition. The only speculation I have thrown in here is that I find the odds of intelligent life evolving from "just plain" life as pretty high. Could that be the uncommon thing? I suppose. That would mean millions of planets of dinosaurs and such but few/one with people. Seems off to me. To me it seems that life itself is the uncommon thing.

 

The odds are OVERWHELMING that if intelligent life were common, it would have found us by now, and lots of different types would have found us. That hasn't happened therefore it won't. Don't be mad or disappointed, it is just math.

 

I am not coming at this from a religious standpoint. It is just math. Whether one believes in the big man or not is irrelevant to this.

 

Sorry. You'll have to live with Honey Boo Boo and Facebook. The sooner we all realize it, the better off we'll all be. The universe is ours and there are threats out there for sure, but those threats are not from aliens.

 

If I was from your planet, I'd want to test fire the Acme Super Atomic Ray Gun at least once BEFORE I really needed it to work:

 

 

Not cool IMO

[Deranged Rhino]

There's a lot to respond to here! GreggyT: are you a member of the "UFO community" as it were? Do you actively research this stuff all the time and try to uncover classified info. concerning UFOs and what not?

 

I'll respond in snippets as I think that is easier.

But regarding the first point, it seems to me that we must assume the UFO community relies on the idea of aliens sneaking around because we have no proof of any kind that Aliens have visited earth. There is no recognized "visitation event". So the it seems logical that if we are to assume aliens have in fact visited Earth, they have done so on the sly. If not, we'd all know about it, wouldn't we?

 

The Roswell situation is a good example. Stories of alleged alien visitation always seem to hinge around a remote location with one or two eye witnesses who aren't quite sure what they saw and then their camera broke when they tried to take a picture, or this type of thing (metaphorically speaking). Further, the alleged alien craft in Roswell would have been tiny.

 

I guess my point is this: why is it presumed that an alien visitation must take place on these terms? How about an alien craft the size of Connecticut hovering over Sao Paulo, with 20 million people checking it out?

 

For me the reason is obvious: it's because there is no alien spacecraft, so you have to rely on various literary devices to tell a compelling tale involving small scale ship, small numbers of aliens, view witnesses, remote location, plausible explanation for lack of definitive documentation of any kind, and so on.

 

I wouldn't classify myself as a part of the UFO community though I'm sure others would. My interest in this subject is based on several personal experiences and sightings I've had along with about two decades worth of first and second hand research into the phenomenon. This has been done in an effort to better understand my own experiences rather than attempt to convert anyone to my views. It helps that I create fiction for a living, in that sense I'm able to research, explore, and talk to people in ways that I otherwise would not. It's amazing how often people with knowledge of this subject (military folk, intelligence folk, airline pilots, ground crews, et al) open up to me about it when they hear what I do for a living. It's simply an area that's fascinated me from the moment I turned from a skeptic to... less of a skeptic.

 

So, that said, let me step through your responses. Again, I'm interested in this conversation (clearly) and am not trying to do anything more than provoke in a healthy debate, so forgive me if it comes off any other way.

 

Your final comment above shows me that you haven't explored this topic that thoroughly and you might be surprised with some of the reported encounters:

 

"I guess my point is this: why is it presumed that an alien visitation must take place on these terms? How about an alien craft the size of Connecticut hovering over Sao Paulo, with 20 million people checking it out?

 

For me the reason is obvious: it's because there is no alien spacecraft, so you have to rely on various literary devices to tell a compelling tale involving small scale ship, small numbers of aliens, view witnesses, remote location, plausible explanation for lack of definitive documentation of any kind, and so on."

 

There have been dozens of major sightings of massively huge ships, some were witnessed by tens of thousands of people at once:

 

1954, Italy: Massive cigar shaped craft hung over a soccer stadium during a match, the event was witnessed by over 10,000 people and brought the game to a stand still as people gawked before the crafts vanished in thin air.

 

1997, Phoenix: The famous Phoenix Lights case wherein over 3,000 witnesses went on record, including the Governor of the state, as having witnessed a massive (over 1 mile in width) craft pass over the city.

 

1994, Ruwa, Africa: An entire school full of children and teachers witnessed a city sized craft stationed over their school. The children drew pictures of the event and teachers claimed they were contacted by those aboard the massive ship.

 

2007, O'Hare Airport: Ground crews, pilots, baggage handlers and even several air traffic controllers reported seeing a massive disk shaped craft hovering over the terminal in one of the nation's biggest airports. The sighting was caught on radar and hung around for over 15 minutes, allowing 100s of witnesses to see and call it in.

 

2008: Stephenville, Texas: One of the most recent, and still more intriguing, sightings of a massive craft. The craft was reportedly over half a mile wide and moved at speeds slow enough to be seen by hundreds of witnesses including off duty police officers and military personnel. The craft was chased off by military jets as it was making its way towards the then president Bush's ranch.

 

And those are just off the top of my head. A little digging and you'll find dozens more -- especially the further back you go in history. The point being, there have been all sorts of sightings, some with thousands and thousands of witnesses. There have been major events that seem, on the surface, designed to spark mass awareness by the visitors or operators of the craft.

 

You should really check out more of the sightings and information before forming a conclusion like the one above. It just isn't the reality of the phenomenon.

 

Part II: I agree that the phenomenon has been taking place for a long time, but we must define what "phenomenon" means. I disagree that this means: "a phenomenon whose origins we're assuming for the sake of this conversation are in fact extra-terrestrial (or inter-dimensonal).

 

It is better to define the phenomenon as UFOs. Unidentified Flying Objects. Things people see and can't explain. Plenty of very credible witnesses have reported this, from good airline pilots to astronauts to, famously, Jimmy Carter. There is some interesting (and genuine; not doctored) footage on youtube of various sightings all over the world, some with fairly plausible explanations, others much more intriguing.

 

But I would not accept that "phenomenon" means extra-terrestrial. I've seen no proof of that anywhere.

 

I suspect something did crash in Roswell, I suspect it was recovered by US govt. officials in some capacity, and I suspect it was all covered up. That's because they found the crashed debris of US upper atmosphere monitoring equipment, looking for something like signs of radiation coming from the USSR, assuming they were actively testing for and developing their own nuclear weapons.

That's a perfectly valid assumption to make given the history of the situation and an assumption that aliens haven't visited the Earth and may never do so, for reasons mentioned up thread (universe big place, lots of choices out there to visit; tough to get around).

 

Is there plenty of documented evidence that the US Govt. has interest in investigating UFOs and the like, or at least did at one point in time? Sure! Is there any evidence to suggest anything came of it? No.

 

I completely agree that the industry of war, and the industry of nation building after war are some of America's favorite pastimes.

 

Indeed, Eisenhower warned of the emerging military industrial complex when he left Office. But I do not think we need to rely on "captured alien technology" as an explanation for current technology, especially when you consider the bits and pieces which go into US military hardware come from many nations.

 

This relates to Area 51 or Groom Lake. Is something fishy going on out there? Probably! Or at least was there at one point in time before the place became so famous? Definitely. Was it all part of a secret program to hide UFOs and reverse-engineer their technology so we could make drones fighting in Iraq? No.

 

It was designed for its current purpose: secretly testing and developing new technologies. This would encompass things like the old U-2, SR-71, B-2, F-117, and the cool new stuff that I particularly find fascinating: pulse detonation wave engines and that type of thing.

 

The jet engine is old and dates to the 1930s. Mankind is ready to move to the next propulsion system and it seems obvious why any government would want to do that developmental work secretly.

 

"I agree that the phenomenon has been taking place for a long time, but we must define what "phenomenon" means. I disagree that this means: "a phenomenon whose origins we're assuming for the sake of this conversation are in fact extra-terrestrial (or inter-dimensonal)."

 

Allow me to clarify. That paragraph from my post that you're taking issue with was specific to that scenario I was painting for you. In that post, in order to have that conversation, I was assuming for the sake of argument that the nature of the phenomenon was entirely ET in nature. That doesn't mean that I'm saying for certain that every sighting is alien in nature. In fact, the overwhelming majority of sightings are routine in nature or explainable in some way shape or form. And I'd argue the more appropriate term isn't UFO (because we don't know if it's an object, or if it's flying when all we're seeing a light in the sky) but rather UAP: Unidentified Arial Phenomenon. That's more accurate if you're looking at it dispassionately.

 

"I suspect something did crash in Roswell, I suspect it was recovered by US govt. officials in some capacity, and I suspect it was all covered up. That's because they found the crashed debris of US upper atmosphere monitoring equipment, looking for something like signs of radiation coming from the USSR, assuming they were actively testing for and developing their own nuclear weapons."

 

It took the USAF nearly fifty years to come up with that explanation of events. Project Mogul (the weather balloon) was blamed for the Roswell crash by the Airforce in a dubious report released in the late 90s. This report (the fourth such report from the USAF on the incident) is largely viewed as disinformation by those within the AirForce, let alone those who believe there was an actual alien craft recovered that day. I've spoken to people who worked on the real Mogul and was told in no uncertain terms that there is zero chance that it was a downed balloon that caused the confusion. Zero.

 

I mentioned Roswell in that other post mainly to play out the scenario in which the US Gov't has been actively keeping concrete knowledge of extra terrestrial visitation a secret from the public. The Roswell crash might be the most famous crash, but it wasn't the first -- or the last -- where the US Gov't apparently made a retrieval. Whatever you think happened at Roswell in 1947 (and I still am not willing to say 100% that it was an ET craft), it was a watershed moment in history because of how it impacted the national discourse on the subject of UFOs. From 1947 through the 1990s, it became active governmental policy to debunk UFOs in public while continuing to research the issue very seriously behind the scenes. In fact, the government made it a hostile subject for researchers to explore in any sort of academic or scientific setting. Project Grudge morphed into Project Sign which then turned into Project Bluebook -- and then was shut down in 1967.

 

But the government's interest in the phenomenon didn't stop in '67.

 

"Is there plenty of documented evidence that the US Govt. has interest in investigating UFOs and the like, or at least did at one point in time? Sure! Is there any evidence to suggest anything came of it? No."

 

There's plenty of evidence to suggest plenty came of it. It just depends on where you look for your evidence. As recently as the Snowden leaks there have been copious amounts of documents that have been made public that reveal the US government's deep interest in this topic. As recently as 2011, the NSA was forced to disclose documents about their own investigations into "The Key to the Extraterrestrial Messages" (https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/ufo/key_to_et_messages.pdf) -- this was a document they were supposed to release in 2001 but delayed it for over a decade despite FOYI requests, and when it was finally released was heavily redacted.

 

There have been countless whistle blowers that have come forward, from the head of Skunkworks, Ben Rich, claiming (in front of a crowd with cameras present) that Skunkworks had the technology "to take ET home and back" but that it would "never see the light of day" because they were buried in classified patents.

 

The issue isn't that there's a lack of evidence, the issue is that because of the US Government's stance on the phenomenon, they've made it impossible to research or be open about without facing ridicule. There has been an ongoing battle to belittle and diminish anyone who speaks up about the phenomenon to such an extent that no serious academic will touch the subject without tenure secured.

 

Ask yourself this, after doing a bit more research into the evidence that does exist, if the US Government knows for certainty there are not ETs visiting, why would they spend so much treasure and energy debunking and slandering those who choose to study it?

[Fadingpain]

 

 

The odds are hard to calculate for life existing elsewhere based on what we know of science. The numbers of star systems and planets has pretty much already been proven to be a number beyond our comprehension. So we actually already have our answer. Life is UNCOMMON. At least intelligent life is uncommon by definition. The only speculation I have thrown in here is that I find the odds of intelligent life evolving from "just plain" life as pretty high. Could that be the uncommon thing? I suppose. That would mean millions of planets of dinosaurs and such but few/one with people. Seems off to me. To me it seems that life itself is the uncommon thing.

 

The odds are OVERWHELMING that if intelligent life were common, it would have found us by now, and lots of different types would have found us. That hasn't happened therefore it won't. Don't be mad or disappointed, it is just math.

 

I am not coming at this from a religious standpoint. It is just math. Whether one believes in the big man or not is irrelevant to this.

 

Sorry. You'll have to live with Honey Boo Boo and Facebook. The sooner we all realize it, the better off we'll all be. The universe is ours and there are threats out there for sure, but those threats are not from aliens.

Not cool IMO

This doesn't really make any sense. I would agree the universe is vast, it is filled with stars, and we have evidence now to suggest that earth-like planets are commonplace in those star systems. But we don't know what's going on on any of them, well, except four of them (Mercury, Earth, Venus, Mars) and even then, there could be some type of life on Mars past or present. We're not sure yet.

 

So how can we conclude life is rare, and how is it rare "by definition?"

Edited February 16, 2015 by Stopthepain

[Fadingpain]

Regarding Greggy T, first part of post 423 above.

 

I have heard of several of your referenced stories, though not all of them. The Arizona lights thing was series of small civilian planes flying in formation; their lights were perceived as marking the outer perimeter of a single spacecraft, as opposed to a bunch of small planes. I do agree though that some stories are not easy to dismiss. I would like to learn more about the Italian soccer game and will look into that one.

 

But I don't think I made my point clearly. My point is not that there haven't been some interesting "sightings" involving large spacecraft or large groups of people. What I really mean is this: if aliens in fact have visited the Earth multiple times, why have they not done so in a manner which clearly marks their arrival? Everything you have cited (though interesting) is nothing close to widespread, publicly recognized definitive proof of an alien visitation.

 

For example, I think I can definitively present compelling evidence that Superbowl 25 occurred in Tampa in January 1991. This is not hearsay or the "appearance" of a football game. It was as football game, it existed, it happened, and I can prove that.

 

No UFO visitation of Earth rises to that level.

 

To put it another way, if aliens came here, would they not make it clear that they were here? If not, why not?

 

Perhaps I should put it another way! It is my opinion that if aliens came here, we would all know about it and the event's existence would not be in question.

[Fadingpain]

 

I wouldn't classify myself as a part of the UFO community though I'm sure others would. My interest in this subject is based on several personal experiences and sightings I've had along with about two decades worth of first and second hand research into the phenomenon. This has been done in an effort to better understand my own experiences rather than attempt to convert anyone to my views. It helps that I create fiction for a living, in that sense I'm able to research, explore, and talk to people in ways that I otherwise would not. It's amazing how often people with knowledge of this subject (military folk, intelligence folk, airline pilots, ground crews, et al) open up to me about it when they hear what I do for a living. It's simply an area that's fascinated me from the moment I turned from a skeptic to... less of a skeptic.

 

So, that said, let me step through your responses. Again, I'm interested in this conversation (clearly) and am not trying to do anything more than provoke in a healthy debate, so forgive me if it comes off any other way.

 

Your final comment above shows me that you haven't explored this topic that thoroughly and you might be surprised with some of the reported encounters:

 

"I guess my point is this: why is it presumed that an alien visitation must take place on these terms? How about an alien craft the size of Connecticut hovering over Sao Paulo, with 20 million people checking it out?

 

For me the reason is obvious: it's because there is no alien spacecraft, so you have to rely on various literary devices to tell a compelling tale involving small scale ship, small numbers of aliens, view witnesses, remote location, plausible explanation for lack of definitive documentation of any kind, and so on."

 

There have been dozens of major sightings of massively huge ships, some were witnessed by tens of thousands of people at once:

 

1954, Italy: Massive cigar shaped craft hung over a soccer stadium during a match, the event was witnessed by over 10,000 people and brought the game to a stand still as people gawked before the crafts vanished in thin air.

 

1997, Phoenix: The famous Phoenix Lights case wherein over 3,000 witnesses went on record, including the Governor of the state, as having witnessed a massive (over 1 mile in width) craft pass over the city.

 

1994, Ruwa, Africa: An entire school full of children and teachers witnessed a city sized craft stationed over their school. The children drew pictures of the event and teachers claimed they were contacted by those aboard the massive ship.

 

2007, O'Hare Airport: Ground crews, pilots, baggage handlers and even several air traffic controllers reported seeing a massive disk shaped craft hovering over the terminal in one of the nation's biggest airports. The sighting was caught on radar and hung around for over 15 minutes, allowing 100s of witnesses to see and call it in.

 

2008: Stephenville, Texas: One of the most recent, and still more intriguing, sightings of a massive craft. The craft was reportedly over half a mile wide and moved at speeds slow enough to be seen by hundreds of witnesses including off duty police officers and military personnel. The craft was chased off by military jets as it was making its way towards the then president Bush's ranch.

 

And those are just off the top of my head. A little digging and you'll find dozens more -- especially the further back you go in history. The point being, there have been all sorts of sightings, some with thousands and thousands of witnesses. There have been major events that seem, on the surface, designed to spark mass awareness by the visitors or operators of the craft.

 

You should really check out more of the sightings and information before forming a conclusion like the one above. It just isn't the reality of the phenomenon.

 

 

"I agree that the phenomenon has been taking place for a long time, but we must define what "phenomenon" means. I disagree that this means: "a phenomenon whose origins we're assuming for the sake of this conversation are in fact extra-terrestrial (or inter-dimensonal)."

 

Allow me to clarify. That paragraph from my post that you're taking issue with was specific to that scenario I was painting for you. In that post, in order to have that conversation, I was assuming for the sake of argument that the nature of the phenomenon was entirely ET in nature. That doesn't mean that I'm saying for certain that every sighting is alien in nature. In fact, the overwhelming majority of sightings are routine in nature or explainable in some way shape or form. And I'd argue the more appropriate term isn't UFO (because we don't know if it's an object, or if it's flying when all we're seeing a light in the sky) but rather UAP: Unidentified Arial Phenomenon. That's more accurate if you're looking at it dispassionately.

 

"I suspect something did crash in Roswell, I suspect it was recovered by US govt. officials in some capacity, and I suspect it was all covered up. That's because they found the crashed debris of US upper atmosphere monitoring equipment, looking for something like signs of radiation coming from the USSR, assuming they were actively testing for and developing their own nuclear weapons."

 

It took the USAF nearly fifty years to come up with that explanation of events. Project Mogul (the weather balloon) was blamed for the Roswell crash by the Airforce in a dubious report released in the late 90s. This report (the fourth such report from the USAF on the incident) is largely viewed as disinformation by those within the AirForce, let alone those who believe there was an actual alien craft recovered that day. I've spoken to people who worked on the real Mogul and was told in no uncertain terms that there is zero chance that it was a downed balloon that caused the confusion. Zero.

 

I mentioned Roswell in that other post mainly to play out the scenario in which the US Gov't has been actively keeping concrete knowledge of extra terrestrial visitation a secret from the public. The Roswell crash might be the most famous crash, but it wasn't the first -- or the last -- where the US Gov't apparently made a retrieval. Whatever you think happened at Roswell in 1947 (and I still am not willing to say 100% that it was an ET craft), it was a watershed moment in history because of how it impacted the national discourse on the subject of UFOs. From 1947 through the 1990s, it became active governmental policy to debunk UFOs in public while continuing to research the issue very seriously behind the scenes. In fact, the government made it a hostile subject for researchers to explore in any sort of academic or scientific setting. Project Grudge morphed into Project Sign which then turned into Project Bluebook -- and then was shut down in 1967.

 

But the government's interest in the phenomenon didn't stop in '67.

 

"Is there plenty of documented evidence that the US Govt. has interest in investigating UFOs and the like, or at least did at one point in time? Sure! Is there any evidence to suggest anything came of it? No."

 

There's plenty of evidence to suggest plenty came of it. It just depends on where you look for your evidence. As recently as the Snowden leaks there have been copious amounts of documents that have been made public that reveal the US government's deep interest in this topic. As recently as 2011, the NSA was forced to disclose documents about their own investigations into "The Key to the Extraterrestrial Messages" (https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/ufo/key_to_et_messages.pdf) -- this was a document they were supposed to release in 2001 but delayed it for over a decade despite FOYI requests, and when it was finally released was heavily redacted.

 

There have been countless whistle blowers that have come forward, from the head of Skunkworks, Ben Rich, claiming (in front of a crowd with cameras present) that Skunkworks had the technology "to take ET home and back" but that it would "never see the light of day" because they were buried in classified patents.

 

The issue isn't that there's a lack of evidence, the issue is that because of the US Government's stance on the phenomenon, they've made it impossible to research or be open about without facing ridicule. There has been an ongoing battle to belittle and diminish anyone who speaks up about the phenomenon to such an extent that no serious academic will touch the subject without tenure secured.

 

Ask yourself this, after doing a bit more research into the evidence that does exist, if the US Government knows for certainty there are not ETs visiting, why would they spend so much treasure and energy debunking and slandering those who choose to study it?

Do we know that is happening though? This takes us full circle back to my initial stance here. Why does a UFO or alien visitation of the earth have to be a secret or little known event that only the US government knows about and has the ability to quash? Why can't such a visitation event be apparent to everyone, including the general public?

 

I think many who like to believe that the US govt. is covering this sort of thing up are also those who want to give the US government more credit than it deserves, and who like to find cover-ups, conspiracies, and the like.

 

I have dug into this sort of thing a lot more than you think, but clearly not as much as you!

 

I do agree that I have seen some instances that are rather difficult to explain (in terms of UAP phenomenon, using your term which makes sense to me) and seem really, really interesting.

 

I just can't all in on the govt. cover-up stuff though.

 

I have no doubt the govt. and Department of Defense is doing all kinds of secret things all the time, and they want to keep those things secret! Further, they will lie, cover-up, and do whatever else is needed within reason to keep those things secret, and to cover-up for their own mistakes and incompetence.

 

None of that, though, adds up to some type of persuasive evidence to suggest aliens have visited the Earth. When they do, I think we will all know about it.

 

Now to find out more about the giant cigar shaped thing over the Italian soccer game with 10,000 witnesses. This sounds interesting.

[Deranged Rhino]

"I have heard of several of your referenced stories, though not all of them. The Arizona lights thing was series of small civilian planes flying in formation; their lights were perceived as marking the outer perimeter of a single spacecraft, as opposed to a bunch of small planes."

 

Can you prove that's what it was? It's an explanation of what might have happened, but there's no more definitive proof that it was civilian planes (or military flares per the official explanation) than there is that it was one solid craft. In fact, there's mountains more evidence that it was one large object if you look at actual witness testimony and video records. Of course, eye witness testimony is often the least reliable and thus easy to dismiss.

 

Do you have the names of the pilots who flew that night? Their flight logs and radar reports? Trust me, I've looked and they don't exist and I'm not seriously expecting you to have any of that stuff. Because the explanation of planes flying in formation makes sense to your every day experience, it doesn't need to meet the same threshold of proof you're asking of those who witnessed the event. Witnesses who included military and civilian pilots, men and women who know what they're looking at in the sky at night, especially when it comes to aircraft.

 

"But I don't think I made my point clearly. My point is not that there haven't been some interesting "sightings" involving large spacecraft or large groups of people. What I really mean is this: if aliens in fact have visited the Earth multiple times, why have they not done so in a manner which clearly marks their arrival? Everything you have cited (though interesting) is nothing close to widespread, publicly recognized definitive proof of an alien visitation."

 

You're presuming to know the intention of the civilizations visiting the planet (if there are any of course). That's kind of ridiculous, is it not?

 

Frankly, there could be dozens of reasons -- most of which were already mentioned by myself and others above -- for the visitors to not want to make direct contact with us. We're a dangerous, heavily armed, and wildly emotional species. It could be as simple as a safety precaution. There are countless other reasons ranging from their desire to observe us without interfering (that's just science), to their desire not to interfere with our free will as a species (think the Prime Directive in Star Trek)... the possibilities are only limited by your imagination.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

. . . To put it another way, if aliens came here, would they not make it clear that they were here? If not, why not? . . .

 

Some possibilities:

 

1. For the exact same reason that there is serious debate on this planet about whether SETI should passively listen or actively send messages;

 

2. For the exact same reason that nomads covertly scout desert water holes for bandits before openly walking into the oasis;

 

3. For the exact same reason that bandits lie hidden at desert water holes waiting for visiting nomads while letting frogs continue to live at the oasis;

 

4. Because they saw an early TV show where the cavalry followed the Indian scouting party back to the Indian village and killed all the Indians, and they don't want us to track them back to the wormhole leading to their own planetary system;

 

5. Because maybe alien life forms are on a scale so small that we can't see them - - why does alien life have to be human-scale?

 

6. Because they saw Mike Tyson proclaimed in a TV broadcast as "heavyweight champion of the WORLD" and they don't want to mess with him, just in case. Maybe they stumbled into some other backwards-appearing life forms in some other planetary system and got more than they bargained for. Better safe than sorry;

 

7. Because on some other planet they revealed themselves and all the frogs committed suicide and it took them hours to clean up the mess.

 

8. Because there is a shortage of meat on their planet and there aren't enough of us yet - - why make the cattle nervous?

[Deranged Rhino]

"Do we know that is happening though? This takes us full circle back to my initial stance here. Why does a UFO or alien visitation of the earth have to be a secret or little known event that only the US government knows about and has the ability to quash? Why can't such a visitation event be apparent to everyone, including the general public?"

 

It's 100% factual to say that either by design or happy accident the US Government has spent a tremendous amount of money investigating this phenomenon and discrediting otherwise credible witnesses and studies in an effort to stigmatize the subject matter. This can be proven simply by doing some research into the subject itself, starting in the 40s and tracking how the government's response to the phenomenon changed.

 

That doesn't prove that there has been a visitation of course. But you can certainly build a rock solid, slam dunk case that proves the government's continued interest in suppressing research and academic study into the phenomenon.It makes one wonder why they would spend so much time and money to debunk something they've officially concluded in 1969 wasn't a real phenomenon.

[Jim in Anchorage]

Part III: I completely agree that if in fact alien technology found its way to Earth, it could well become compartmentalized over time as you suggest, such that no sinister conspiracy among large numbers of currently living people would be needed to maintain the secret.

 

I also agree that if alien technology was "captured" by the government (any government really) that government would likely keep it quiet if they could for the reasons you state.

But this takes us full circle back to my original point. Why must we assume something as dramatic and eventful as an alien visitation to a different planet with intelligent life (EARTH) would only be done in some quiet, generally unknown, hidden, small scale manner? Such that a government cover-up on Earth would even be possible?

 

I guess I prefer the "other" depiction of an alien visitation, as envisioned in various sci-fi movies over the years...when in fact you do see a huge "mother ship" in a highly populated area and it is no secret that we have been visited, and therefore, there is no secret for any government to maintain.

 

But now are starting to veer into the "government cover-up" or whatever side of the traditional UFO discussion, which I honestly find kind of boring.

 

Just my opinion of course, but I think it's much more interesting to discuss things we know for sure, like the vastness of space, our apparent speed limit that we can't exceed (speed of light) and how we (or aliens) might overcome these hurdles and actually find intelligent life elsewhere.

 

For example, here is something that is often not discussed. If we are going to travel far away through conventional means (i.e., we don't know how to warp space and go through a worm hole and the like), we are going to need a space ship which can go pretty darned fast. Like 90% speed of light fast would be a good starting point.

 

At anything close to that speed, how would you prevent yourself from flying directly into a moon you didn't know existed? Most of what you fly past would not be known. How would you "chart" that as Han Solo referenced in Star Wars?

 

And even if we assume a perfect chart of everything, you would never be able to chart for random debris, rocks, bits of whatever randomly flying around in space.

 

I suppose we can suggest some type of defense shield would be invented...whereby a cone of plasma energy or God knows what is out in front of the space craft at all times, so if there is some rock out there, it will be eaten up before the ship hits it.

 

Engineering problems of that type are massive and these types of solutions tend to only work on paper. But even if we are to assume that we can solve the "random collision" problem, and even if we assume we can get our spacecraft to go 99% the speed of light...then what?

 

Who is going to fly it? Humans? What if we are headed somewhere that is 5,000 light years away? Even accounting for time dilation, that trip is going to take a really long time. And that's just the first leg. That ship wants to come home to Earth at some point, doesn't it? You are going to need a community of humans on the ship, with generations of children creating new children and so on, with the last batch of descendants being the ones who actually get to where they are going.

 

That's some crazy stuff right there!

 

And with time dilation, if some group of descendants ever did make it back to Earth after this "short little hop" to a planet 5,000 light years away, the Earth they left would be long gone. And not just 10,000 years gone through normal aging. It would be much worse than that with the dilation effect.

 

When you start discussing things on these terms, you see that any intelligence in the universe is going to have a really hard time finding the other intelligence. It may be so difficult that in fact it will never occur.

 

The only way out of this bind is to suggest the "Worm hole" solution whereby we effectively wave our magic wand and solve the problem in that manner. But if such a solution existed, why hasn't anyone used it to come visit us?

 

Well, the universe is a big place. Maybe some aliens have done this and they are working their way around to us, with only another 125 million years to go before they get to Earth.

Ha ha. See my last email. No way we are alone. But yes, the raw logistics/engineering problems of getting from here to there may be enough to stop anyone from visiting anyone else.

 

It all hinges on that which we don't know: how frequent is life throughout the universe, and for every bit of life that exists, what percentage of it is of human intelligence or better?

 

If we had perfect knowledge of the situation, what would we find out?

 

We might find out that actually, there is a planet full of interesting creatures, though nothing smarter than a dinosaur...and it's only 475 light years from here. That alone makes it so far away, we'll never really get to it.

 

But we also might find that the nearest planet like that with something interesting going on is 5 million light years away, and that currently, there are only 2 other planets in our entire galaxy that any real intelligence on them.

 

What is the life density of the universe?

 

What is the intelligence density of the universe?

This is not totally analogous. Sure, we might not choose to interact with a frog in a pond and we might just sort of walk on by...but we likely would not intentionally hide our activity from the frog or make sure the frog doesn't detect us in any way...which is kind of what all UFO visitation theories hinge on.

 

Perhaps a better question is this: would the frog know we are there? Would he be able to perceive us?

 

In other words, I don't accept that aliens are here but they hide from us. I will buy, perhaps, that they are here but we can't detect them for whatever reason, at least on a conceptual level. That seems the more persuasive scenario to me, if we are to accept that aliens are here or have visited at some time in the past.

I can very easily understand why they would hide from us. The fact that we know about them will disturb our natural behavior, should they wish to study it.

Let's use fish instead of frogs since I am more familiar with them and have on occasion studied their undisturbed behavior. If I walk heavily on the bank of the creek, cast my shadow on the water or talk I would think fish do nothing but hide in the shadows. Their natural behavior is lost to me.

 

However if I creep up quietly so they are unaware of my presence now I can see how they truly behave. The feeding habits, the spawning rituals and so on.

Not saying that's what aliens are doing to use but it is possible and logical for them to do so.

[Fadingpain]

"Do we know that is happening though? This takes us full circle back to my initial stance here. Why does a UFO or alien visitation of the earth have to be a secret or little known event that only the US government knows about and has the ability to quash? Why can't such a visitation event be apparent to everyone, including the general public?"

 

It's 100% factual to say that either by design or happy accident the US Government has spent a tremendous amount of money investigating this phenomenon and discrediting otherwise credible witnesses and studies in an effort to stigmatize the subject matter. This can be proven simply by doing some research into the subject itself, starting in the 40s and tracking how the government's response to the phenomenon changed.

 

That doesn't prove that there has been a visitation of course. But you can certainly build a rock solid, slam dunk case that proves the government's continued interest in suppressing research and academic study into the phenomenon.It makes one wonder why they would spend so much time and money to debunk something they've officially concluded in 1969 wasn't a real phenomenon.

I think that relates to the fact that the government doesn't want anyone sniffing around too much into these various dark programs or whatever they are called. In other words, the government is not spending a lot of time attacking the UFO community per se...they are spending a lot of time attacking those who are sniffing around into their secret military defense programs, which I am sure they would like to protect and keep secret.

I can very easily understand why they would hide from us. The fact that we know about them will disturb our natural behavior, should they wish to study it.

Let's use fish instead of frogs since I am more familiar with them and have on occasion studied their undisturbed behavior. If I walk heavily on the bank of the creek, cast my shadow on the water or talk I would think fish do nothing but hide in the shadows. Their natural behavior is lost to me.

 

However if I creep up quietly so they are unaware of my presence now I can see how they truly behave. The feeding habits, the spawning rituals and so on.

Not saying that's what aliens are doing to use but it is possible and logical for them to do so.

I hear you, but this all assumes that an alien spacecraft that just travelled for a whole bunch of light years somehow has the ability to enter our atmosphere and then go all stealthy.

 

Sure, it's possible that they could...and we don't even know the size/scale of what we are talking about here.

 

But imagine the complexity of putting 3 men on the moon. Would it be possible to sneak up on the moon if it had an entire civilization living on it? Not with our technology in 1969 it wasn't.

 

But again, maybe an alien craft would be able to pull it off. I just don't like resorting to clever plot devices like "they will just hit the invisible button" or the "cloaking device" and so on.

 

Having said that, it is possible (I guess) that a clocking device could exist or be developed, especially if you are dealing with a civilization 100,000 years further down the road than us.

 

You can argue pretty much all that we have going on right now is only 100, maybe 200 years old, tops.

 

What will humans on Earth be cooking up in 500 years? It will be pretty darned cool, whatever it is, at least as measured by us now.

 

Now imagine going 10,000 years down the road. You can't even conceive of that.

[Beerball]

http://www.newser.com/story/202762/100-finalists-to-vie-for-one-way-trip-to-mars.html

[Fadingpain]

http://www.newser.com/story/202762/100-finalists-to-vie-for-one-way-trip-to-mars.html

Cool. A settlement on Mars to be established by 24 humans with no intention of returning to Earth.

 

I can't help but think of this exchange from Dr. Strangelove:

 

General "Buck" Turgidson: Doctor, you mentioned the ratio of ten women to each man. Now, wouldn't that necessitate the abandonment of the so-called monogamous sexual relationship, I mean, as far as men were concerned?

Dr. Strangelove: Regrettably, yes. But it is, you know, a sacrifice required for the future of the human race. I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious... service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.

Ambassador de Sadesky: I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.

[Jim in Anchorage]

I think that relates to the fact that the government doesn't want anyone sniffing around too much into these various dark programs or whatever they are called. In other words, the government is not spending a lot of time attacking the UFO community per se...they are spending a lot of time attacking those who are sniffing around into their secret military defense programs, which I am sure they would like to protect and keep secret.

I hear you, but this all assumes that an alien spacecraft that just travelled for a whole bunch of light years somehow has the ability to enter our atmosphere and then go all stealthy.

 

Sure, it's possible that they could...and we don't even know the size/scale of what we are talking about here.

 

But imagine the complexity of putting 3 men on the moon. Would it be possible to sneak up on the moon if it had an entire civilization living on it? Not with our technology in 1969 it wasn't.

 

But again, maybe an alien craft would be able to pull it off. I just don't like resorting to clever plot devices like "they will just hit the invisible button" or the "cloaking device" and so on.

 

Having said that, it is possible (I guess) that a clocking device could exist or be developed, especially if you are dealing with a civilization 100,000 years further down the road than us.

 

You can argue pretty much all that we have going on right now is only 100, maybe 200 years old, tops.

 

What will humans on Earth be cooking up in 500 years? It will be pretty darned cool, whatever it is, at least as measured by us now.

 

Now imagine going 10,000 years down the road. You can't even conceive of that.

No need to put a space ship in earths atmosphere to study humans. Simply monitor our TV and radio from a near by but undetectable [to us] location. Or use spies if they can mask themselves as human.

 

Not so sure that human technology will advance at the rate you expect in the next centuries. Human progress has been historically slow prior to the past 150 years. George Washington got from point a to point b same as Cesar did-on a horse. It was the understanding and harnessing of electricity that caused the dizzying advancements we have grown accustomed to. As the years go by we may further refine it's use, as we do now, but will there be civilization changing advances that happen overnight like the electric motor or lights? Maybe, Maybe not.

Is there a force in nature that will cause a huge advance when harnessed as electricity did? Possibly Quantum physics will fill that role, but that's unknown.

[Deranged Rhino]

No need to put a space ship in earths atmosphere to study humans. Simply monitor our TV and radio from a near by but undetectable [to us] location. Or use spies if they can mask themselves as human.

 

Not so sure that human technology will advance at the rate you expect in the next centuries. Human progress has been historically slow prior to the past 150 years. George Washington got from point a to point b same as Cesar did-on a horse. It was the understanding and harnessing of electricity that caused the dizzying advancements we have grown accustomed to. As the years go by we may further refine it's use, as we do now, but will there be civilization changing advances that happen overnight like the electric motor or lights? Maybe, Maybe not.

Is there a force in nature that will cause a huge advance when harnessed as electricity did? Possibly Quantum physics will fill that role, but that's unknown.

 

Artificial Intelligence is coming, and it's going to be game changing. And it's not coming in a few decades, it's quite possibly coming before this decade's out.

[Jim in Anchorage]

 

Artificial Intelligence is coming, and it's going to be game changing. And it's not coming in a few decades, it's quite possibly coming before this decade's out.

And what advances do you think this will provide on a practical level?

[Beerball]

And what advances do you think this will provide on a practical level?

it will be artificially intelligent

[Deranged Rhino]

And what advances do you think this will provide on a practical level?

 

The biggest impact will occur on an economic level. If you think automation made a lot of jobs obsolete, wait until you can have automated workers who can do everything a person can while never having an accident or suing for worker's comp. Computer piloted transportation will become standard to the point where every airliner, cargo plane, train will be piloted by machine. Driverless cars will become so safe that it'll be illegal for a human driver to use the freeway.

 

Advanced AI will improve research and development in nearly every field, it'll revolutionize medicine -- especially surgical instruments and procedures. It would absolutely change the space program and how we explore foreign environments. You don't need to feed a machine, and with today's tech we could be sending machines to our closest neighbors with more precision at less cost.

 

I'm speculating of course, no one knows exactly what's going to happen with AI because we're not sure about a lot of the ethical issues that will come along with creating intelligence that could without question become more powerful than its creators. Elon Musk and a whole bunch of other leaders in the tech fields have voiced concerns about these very kinds of issues with AI lately. It's a looming presence just over the horizon. We can see it coming, but no one is quite sure what we're going to do with it... or how we'll contain it.

[Jim in Anchorage]

 

The biggest impact will occur on an economic level. If you think automation made a lot of jobs obsolete, wait until you can have automated workers who can do everything a person can while never having an accident or suing for worker's comp. Computer piloted transportation will become standard to the point where every airliner, cargo plane, train will be piloted by machine. Driverless cars will become so safe that it'll be illegal for a human driver to use the freeway.

 

Advanced AI will improve research and development in nearly every field, it'll revolutionize medicine -- especially surgical instruments and procedures. It would absolutely change the space program and how we explore foreign environments. You don't need to feed a machine, and with today's tech we could be sending machines to our closest neighbors with more precision at less cost.

 

I'm speculating of course, no one knows exactly what's going to happen with AI because we're not sure about a lot of the ethical issues that will come along with creating intelligence that could without question become more powerful than its creators. Elon Musk and a whole bunch of other leaders in the tech fields have voiced concerns about these very kinds of issues with AI lately. It's a looming presence just over the horizon. We can see it coming, but no one is quite sure what we're going to do with it... or how we'll contain it.

Not sure we already can't do many of those things. A auto pilot can take off from Paris and land at Kennedy with no human guidance. But what of a unplanned event like loss of a hydraulic system? Will any computer ever be able to disregard it's program and "fly by the seat of it's pants" as a human would? I think that kind of performance is a long way off. Never mind a terminator type takeover.

[Fadingpain]

AI is definitely coming and it will definitely change things.

 

Two arguably more game changing technologies coming soon are nanotechnology and DNA related biotech advancements.

 

How many people die because, effectively, they need a spare body part, but we don't have them lined up in a warehouse next to the water pumps for your car?

 

Soon you'll go to the doctor, he'll pluck a hair or prick your finger for a drop of blood, and from that they will have your genetic code; that will be used to grow your own perfect replication of your own body part...the real trick is in mechanically plugging that back into your body. Some parts will be easier than others. It will all be figured out with time.

 

Nanotechnology is not too far away either and will alter how everything is manufactured, forever...with everything being built an atom at a time. We still build everything like cavemen, with only a few primary means of assembling things or sticking things together, usually with heat.

No need to put a space ship in earths atmosphere to study humans. Simply monitor our TV and radio from a near by but undetectable [to us] location. Or use spies if they can mask themselves as human.

 

Not so sure that human technology will advance at the rate you expect in the next centuries. Human progress has been historically slow prior to the past 150 years. George Washington got from point a to point b same as Cesar did-on a horse. It was the understanding and harnessing of electricity that caused the dizzying advancements we have grown accustomed to. As the years go by we may further refine it's use, as we do now, but will there be civilization changing advances that happen overnight like the electric motor or lights? Maybe, Maybe not.

Is there a force in nature that will cause a huge advance when harnessed as electricity did? Possibly Quantum physics will fill that role, but that's unknown.

The bolded text is the key.

 

The rate of mankind's technological progression is not linear.

 

Took a long time to get the party started; once started, however, things go fast.

[Deranged Rhino]

Blink 182's Tom Delonge gives an interview to Paper Magazine about all things UFO:

 

 

People will be like "Oh, you believe in UFOs" [laughs], but I'm reading books on physics, I'm reading books on the secret space program, I'm talking to people that work underground for six months at a time, that are confiding in me about the national security initiatives. I've literally read 200 books on the subject, and I don't spend my time looking at UFO reports or talking to little green men. I'm way past that. If anybody tells you there's no life in universe, you should be turned off. That's just such a dumb thing to say. It's totally, universally accepted amongst the country's elite scientific establishments that there's life everywhere. The question is what kind, where, how'd they get here, what are they doing when they get here, and how do we communicate with them? That's when you start reading books about the mind and consciousness, and telepathy and ESP. It's a whole different program.

 

http://www.papermag.com/2015/02/tom_delonge_ufo_interview.php

Edited February 18, 2015 by GreggyT