Beerball Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 What owners would you prefer over Ralph for the Bills? Bidwell--AZ, nope would have left town long ago Blank--Atl...yes Bisciotti--Balt...don't know enough about him, but I'd lean yes Richardson--Car. don't think so McCaskey--Chi lean to yes, but difficult to decide what would happen in a small market Brown--Cin...nope Lerner--Cle...perhaps, but no winning track record there. Appears to be trying...lean to yes Jones--Dal...nope, would have left at the blink of an eye Bowlen--Den...yes (but his FO decisions aren't much better than Ralph's) Ford--Det...nope...Matt Millen? Worse decisions than Ralph. Packers...don't count in this discussion McNair--Hou...wants to win, but he hasn't shown the ability to pull the right strings...wash Irsay--Ind...would have been gone long ago, or would have held city hostage to demands. Nope Weaver--Jax...hard to say with no fan base...I'll pass on this one Hunt--KC...nothing since Hank Stram. Are the Hunt's Ralph II? Wash Ross--Mia...can't say Wilf--Minn...nope Kraft--NE...another difficult one because you don't know how he'd react in a small market, but he did play the moving franchise card...so nope Benson--NO...nope, if not for Katrina he'd be long gone Mara/Tisch--NYG...yes Johnson--NYJ...can't say what he'd do with a small market, but he spends...yes Davis--Oak...nope Lurie--Phi...I suppose yes Rooney--Pitt...no question Spanos--SD...nope York--SF...since they ran Eddie off they've been nothing...nope Allen--Sea...money out the wazoo, one SB appearance...yes (but his ties to Seattle are what is important to that franchise) Kroenke--StL...don't know enough Glazer--TB...I think yes Adams--Tenn...nope Snyder--Wash...nope How different is your list? Anyone local to an area who can shed light on some of those where I don't have an opinion would be appreciated. I'd give a strong yes to: Blank, Mara/Tisch (includes the family legacy) & Rooney (includes the family legacy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Great concept Beerball and excellent execution too! I would only differ on 3 of the owners. Indy/Irsay: I think you're confusing the older late Robert Irsay (who snuck out of Baltimore) with his son Jim, who has been an excellent owner. They've established a winning tradition in a smaller market, built a new stadium, hosted a Super Bowl, and won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive stuff. Kansas City/Hunt: Again you might be confusing the older late Lamar Hunt with his son Clark. However in this case (unlike with the Irsays) both Hunts were great owners. Lamar Hunt pretty much founded the AFL… arguably more than Ralph or Al Davis, Hunt was the most instrumental person in establishing that league. Also located in a smaller market, the Chiefs have a great tradition, are a model (along with Green Bay) for regionalizing a franchise, have played in 2 Super Bowls and won once, have done outstanding renovations to Arrowhead Stadium (no corporate sponsor and not named Lamar Hunt Stadium), and unlike the Bills… have an all-time WINNING percentage. On top of all of this, Hunt established the Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Honor which is reportedly an incredible facility which is considered the de facto AFL Hall of Fame. Actually Ralph can't hold a candle to either Hunt… either Hunt is who Ralph could only dream of being as an owner. Glazers/Tampa Bay: The Bucs have done some good things and some bad things since he bought the club from Culverhouse. They've built a new stadium (using the threat of leaving as leverage) and won a Super Bowl but they've also alienated fans, extorted public money, have vastly underspent the salary cap due to their ownership of Manchester United which has been hemorrhaging money, raised season ticket prices 6 years in a row, had the Ticketmaster scandal… very mixed bag and I wouldn't put him ahead of Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Great concept Beerball and excellent execution too! I would only differ on 3 of the owners. Indy/Irsay: I think you're confusing the older late Robert Irsay (who snuck out of Baltimore) with his son Jim, who has been an excellent owner. They've established a winning tradition in a smaller market, built a new stadium, hosted a Super Bowl, and won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive stuff. Kansas City/Hunt: Again you might be confusing the older late Lamar Hunt with his son Clark. However in this case (unlike with the Irsays) both Hunts were great owners. Lamar Hunt pretty much founded the AFL… arguably more than Ralph or Al Davis, Hunt was the most instrumental person in establishing that league. Also located in a smaller market, the Chiefs have a great tradition, are a model (along with Green Bay) for regionalizing a franchise, have played in 2 Super Bowls and won once, have done outstanding renovations to Arrowhead Stadium (no corporate sponsor and not named Lamar Hunt Stadium), and unlike the Bills… have an all-time WINNING percentage. On top of all of this, Hunt established the Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Honor which is reportedly an incredible facility which is considered the de facto AFL Hall of Fame. Actually Ralph can't hold a candle to either Hunt… either Hunt is who Ralph could only dream of being as an owner. Glazers/Tampa Bay: The Bucs have done some good things and some bad things since he bought the club from Culverhouse. They've built a new stadium (using the threat of leaving as leverage) and won a Super Bowl but they've also alienated fans, extorted public money, have vastly underspent the salary cap due to their ownership of Manchester United which has been hemorrhaging money, raised season ticket prices 6 years in a row, had the Ticketmaster scandal… very mixed bag and I wouldn't put him ahead of Ralph. Irsays: Left town. Wouldn't want them. Hunts: Lamar I agree. Sonny, nope. Glazers: I'd agree. Personally I'd love Pegs as the next owner of the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 p.s.- And in the cases of both the Irsays and the Hunts… the team was passed from father to son and kept in the same market. Based on that criteria alone, bothJim Irsay and both Hunts rank above Ralph. Irsays: Left town. Wouldn't want them. Hunts: Lamar I agree. Sonny, nope. Glazers: I'd agree. Personally I'd love Pegs as the next owner of the Bills. Doc, I don't think it's fair to treat Jim Irsay as the same person as his father. Their legacies will be completely different. I understand your reservations about Clark Hunt because he's only been on the job since 2006. He fired Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson, who was highly respected (but who has not worked since) and hired Scott Pioli. Maybe too early to tell with Clark although the soccer team he owns won MLS Championship and the Chiefs appear to have turned it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Great concept Beerball and excellent execution too! I would only differ on 3 of the owners. Indy/Irsay: I think you're confusing the older late Robert Irsay (who snuck out of Baltimore) with his son Jim, who has been an excellent owner. They've established a winning tradition in a smaller market, built a new stadium, hosted a Super Bowl, and won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive stuff. Kansas City/Hunt: Again you might be confusing the older late Lamar Hunt with his son Clark. However in this case (unlike with the Irsays) both Hunts were great owners. Lamar Hunt pretty much founded the AFL… arguably more than Ralph or Al Davis, Hunt was the most instrumental person in establishing that league. Also located in a smaller market, the Chiefs have a great tradition, are a model (along with Green Bay) for regionalizing a franchise, have played in 2 Super Bowls and won once, have done outstanding renovations to Arrowhead Stadium (no corporate sponsor and not named Lamar Hunt Stadium), and unlike the Bills… have an all-time WINNING percentage. On top of all of this, Hunt established the Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Honor which is reportedly an incredible facility which is considered the de facto AFL Hall of Fame. Actually Ralph can't hold a candle to either Hunt… either Hunt is who Ralph could only dream of being as an owner. Glazers/Tampa Bay: The Bucs have done some good things and some bad things since he bought the club from Culverhouse. They've built a new stadium (using the threat of leaving as leverage) and won a Super Bowl but they've also alienated fans, extorted public money, have vastly underspent the salary cap due to their ownership of Manchester United which has been hemorrhaging money, raised season ticket prices 6 years in a row, had the Ticketmaster scandal… very mixed bag and I wouldn't put him ahead of Ralph. I'm also taking the results into account. What has KC done? Yes, they got that one SB, but what since? They stay as a no in my book. (maybe I should say a no better than Ralph)...again...results! I'm too lazy to do the research...how much public money went into the new stadium in Indy? Was there any tension about losing the team? I can't ignore the move from Baltimore either, same family... Don't know Glazer, but I'll take the word of those who do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) I'm also taking the results into account. What has KC done? Yes, they got that one SB, but what since? They stay as a no in my book. (maybe I should say a no better than Ralph)...again...results! I'm too lazy to do the research...how much public money went into the new stadium in Indy? Was there any tension about losing the team? I can't ignore the move from Baltimore either, same family... Don't know Glazer, but I'll take the word of those who do. Just to give a little insight to what I remember about Robert Irsay vs his son Jim Irsay, complete 180 degree difference to start with. The Father Robert was a "hands on'" type of owner like Ralph Wlson-Bill Bidwill, he is the one who moved the team from Baltimore to Indy. Robert Irsay also had ex- Bill OCTed Marchibroda as his head coach of the Colts in the 70's with QB Bert Jones. While the Buffalo Bills were doornats in the 70's the Colts were winning the division (AFC East) under Marchibroda, their only problem was they couldn't get past the Steel curtain and the Pittsburgh Steelers of the late 70's. Robert Irsay gave Bert Jones a home in Baltimore to seal his contract with the Colts, but once Jones left the team Irsay took back the home he had given him (gotta read the fine print). Jones was outraged as were many fans, Irsay didn't care. What Irsay didn't know at the time was that John Elway was a huge Bert Jones fan, so when the Colts drafted John Elway #1 overall he refused to report to the team stating he would play baseball instead. The Colts seeing no other option as Elway signed and started to play MLB they traded away Elway to the Bronco's. The son, Jim Irsay watched as the Bills dominated the late 80's,early 90's with Bill Polian as GM, so when he took over the team after his father passed one of the first things he did was to hire away Bill Polian from the Carolina Panthers. The Colts used to be in the same division as the Bills so Jim Irsay knew first hand what Bill Polian did to transform the Bills from the bottom of the division to SB contenders. JIm Irsay named Polian GM pres and stood back and let him build his team into the constant division winning powerhouse it is today. Robert Irsay =rich, nose in everything prick Jim Irsay = smart, "hands off" owner Edited July 25, 2011 by Harvey lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sllib olaffub Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Seems to me, and I know this is a large oversimplification, that it isn't always the owners, or what they're willing to spend, but the GM/Pres., that determines how good/bad a franchise is. It is up to ownership to hire the right guys - but from there out, teams like Pittsburgh - consistently good teams, get that way by good drafting, player retention, and consistency in coaching/approach. If the coaches have the right philosophy, and the players fit the mold, then winning is only natural, when half the teams in the NFL are either rebuilding or losing vets and starting over. So... it's, in my opinion, the owner's biggest priority to do whatever it takes to keep a smart man in charge when they get him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Ralph Wilson has owned the Bills for half a century. The combined record is 358-406-8. The Bills have not made the playoffs in 11 consecutive years, after this season it will be 12. Comparing Ralph Wilson to some of the worst owners in the history of the NFL is a revealing statement in itself. What no person in their right mind would do is compare Ralph to some of the better owners in the league, past or present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Speaking of Good Owners... http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/6799626/new-york-jets-paying-lockout-lost-wages-employees With the NFL lockout on the verge of ending, New York Jets owner Woody Johnson assembled the entire organization Monday morning in the team's auditorium and told about 150 employees that all lost wages from the lockout would be returned to them by the time they returned to their desks, according to a person familiar with the meeting... ...Johnson delivered on his promise. In fact, one employee said his lost salary was already direct deposited into his account by the time he returned to his desk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Speaking of Good Owners... http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/6799626/new-york-jets-paying-lockout-lost-wages-employees Very classy. Good job, Woody. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Ralph Wilson has owned the Bills for half a century. The combined record is 358-406-8. The Bills have not made the playoffs in 11 consecutive years, after this season it will be 12. Comparing Ralph Wilson to some of the worst owners in the history of the NFL is a revealing statement in itself. What no person in their right mind would do is compare Ralph to some of the better owners in the league, past or present. Simple really. What current owners would you put in front of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Woody gave his staff a woody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Robert Kraft is currently the best owner in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills1960 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Watch, the Bills go out and sign Tyson Clabo and all of this animosity stops. One can only hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Simple really. What current owners would you put in front of him? not really that simple. you are making a lot of assumptions that certain owners would move the team or wouldnt. are we also going on the same initial investment? Because I feel that a lot of owners you have pegged as "would have moved the team" might not if their entire investment was $25,000. All of that changes if you say their investment matches what they paid for their current team as well. To make this easy, Im going to go on the premise that the team cost $25,000 and the owner does not care about moving. With that being the case... Blank Bisciotti J. Jones Kraft Mara/Tisch Woody Johnson Lurie Rooney Allen Glazer (but I dont know a lot about them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Simple really. What current owners would you put in front of him? Not trying to be sarcastic but almost all the other owners. There is one owner who I would put in the wacky category: Al Davis. That is a separate story in itself. From a standpoint of the caliber of organization there is little doubt that the Bills are a lower tiered organization. With Ralph, there is little doubt that he has influenced the organization on how it is structured and staffed. Another comparably mediocre owner is Brown of Cincinatti. If you want me to name my favored prototypical owner I would want to see in western NY it is modeled on the Pittsburgh Rooney family model. It is a well managed organization done in a fiscally responsible manner. Their formula is to hire quality staff and let them do their jobs with little interference. While the Bills' football operation has been ridiculously unstable, their organization has been amazingly stable and successful. Success in the NFL is very easy to determine. Ralph Wilson has owned the team for half a century. Under his stewardship their combined record is 358-406-8. The Bills have not been in the playoffs for 11 consecutive years, this year will make it 12. It is not too difficult to judge the caliber of Buffalo's ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 What owners would you prefer over Ralph for the Bills? Bidwell--AZ, nope would have left town long ago Blank--Atl...yes Bisciotti--Balt...don't know enough about him, but I'd lean yes Richardson--Car. don't think so McCaskey--Chi lean to yes, but difficult to decide what would happen in a small market Brown--Cin...nope Lerner--Cle...perhaps, but no winning track record there. Appears to be trying...lean to yes Jones--Dal...nope, would have left at the blink of an eye Bowlen--Den...yes (but his FO decisions aren't much better than Ralph's) Ford--Det...nope...Matt Millen? Worse decisions than Ralph. Packers...don't count in this discussion McNair--Hou...wants to win, but he hasn't shown the ability to pull the right strings...wash Irsay--Ind...would have been gone long ago, or would have held city hostage to demands. Nope Weaver--Jax...hard to say with no fan base...I'll pass on this one Hunt--KC...nothing since Hank Stram. Are the Hunt's Ralph II? Wash Ross--Mia...can't say Wilf--Minn...nope Kraft--NE...another difficult one because you don't know how he'd react in a small market, but he did play the moving franchise card...so nope Benson--NO...nope, if not for Katrina he'd be long gone Mara/Tisch--NYG...yes Johnson--NYJ...can't say what he'd do with a small market, but he spends...yes Davis--Oak...nope Lurie--Phi...I suppose yes Rooney--Pitt...no question Spanos--SD...nope York--SF...since they ran Eddie off they've been nothing...nope Allen--Sea...money out the wazoo, one SB appearance...yes (but his ties to Seattle are what is important to that franchise) Kroenke--StL...don't know enough Glazer--TB...I think yes Adams--Tenn...nope Snyder--Wash...nope How different is your list? Anyone local to an area who can shed light on some of those where I don't have an opinion would be appreciated. I'd give a strong yes to: Blank, Mara/Tisch (includes the family legacy) & Rooney (includes the family legacy). I would say no to Brown of Cincy, he is just as cheap as Ralph and cares nothing about his employees. No to Al Davis because he is just as senile as Ralph if not much more, although he is more open to spending money to win, he has gone nuts and sends in plays to the sidelines, just totally wacko in alot of ways. Every other owner is either clearly a better option or so close that I would say yes just because it couldn't be any worse and there is always a chance for improvement. Success in the NFL is very easy to determine. Ralph Wilson has owned the team for half a century. Under his stewardship their combined record is 358-406-8. The Bills have not been in the playoffs for 11 consecutive years, this year will make it 12. It is not too difficult to judge the caliber of Buffalo's ownership. That is so easy to see and so obvious you would think to everyone, I mean it is in black and white/win-loss records. But give it a few minutes and you will hear "But he kept the Bills in Buffalo" excuse from several people on here. People have been using that excuse for far too many years. In the 1970's it was fine, 1980's got a little old, but OK. They we started winning for almost a decade, so it wasn't a problem. Now the old excuse has reared it's ugly head again for the past decade of consistent losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) p.s.- And in the cases of both the Irsays and the Hunts… the team was passed from father to son and kept in the same market. Based on that criteria alone, both Jim Irsay and both Hunts rank above Ralph. VERY interesting point! That is so easy to see and so obvious you would think to everyone, I mean it is in black and white/win-loss records. But give it a few minutes and you will hear "But he kept the Bills in Buffalo" excuse from several people on here. People have been using that excuse for far too many years. In the 1970's it was fine, 1980's got a little old, but OK. They we started winning for almost a decade, so it wasn't a problem. Now the old excuse has reared it's ugly head again for the past decade of consistent losing. "Having a husband who comes home drunk every Friday night and beats you, is better than having no husband at all", is effectively what that line of BS says. Edited July 25, 2011 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Not trying to be sarcastic but almost all the other owners. There is one owner who I would put in the wacky category: Al Davis. That is a separate story in itself. From a standpoint of the caliber of organization there is little doubt that the Bills are a lower tiered organization. With Ralph, there is little doubt that he has influenced the organization on how it is structured and staffed. Another comparably mediocre owner is Brown of Cincinatti. If you want me to name my favored prototypical owner I would want to see in western NY it is modeled on the Pittsburgh Rooney family model. It is a well managed organization done in a fiscally responsible manner. Their formula is to hire quality staff and let them do their jobs with little interference. While the Bills' football operation has been ridiculously unstable, their organization has been amazingly stable and successful. Success in the NFL is very easy to determine. Ralph Wilson has owned the team for half a century. Under his stewardship their combined record is 358-406-8. The Bills have not been in the playoffs for 11 consecutive years, this year will make it 12. It is not too difficult to judge the caliber of Buffalo's ownership. This is a very fair assessment. And accurate, IMHO. The one thing about your post that I find most credible is that not once did you mention money or regurgitated the tired "Ralph is cheap" mantra. I point that out because there is not now nor has there ever been a correlation between owners spending big money and success on the field. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 No owner would be better than current Sabres owner Terry Pegula who loves Buffalo and will prove that you can win a championship here in a "small" market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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