John from Riverside Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Its funny how the only time people use this line is when the stats disprove what point they are trying to make. I'm actually on your side in the Fitz argument john, but statements like that really weaken your argument. I just get so tired of seeing posts that people look up like it is the be all end all of their arguement. Do the stats take into consideration that Fitz would toss a ball to a wide reciever only to have them drop it? I go with what my eyes see in the games.....and to be quite honest? I thought Fitz was fine except for the times when he made me want to pull my hair out when he dropped a ball out of his hand when he went back to pass or when he threw a bad ball or when he through an interception......but after the games I would remind myself just how little opportunities Fitz would get to redeem himself for a mistake......WE HAD TO SCORE ON NEARLY EVERY POSSESSION TO WIN A GAME........our defense was that bad. Then there was the issue of guys just falling out left and right to IR......how do you biuld any kind of continuity when you have the largest group of IR guys (or at least seemed like it) in the league Then I reminded myself that the team is being biult through the draft......and we needed premium draft picks......its interesting how fate would have it that we played just well enough to stay away from Cam Newton and just well enough to be in line for Marcel....who I think is going to be a GREAT player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I have heard very few (if any?) people say "he is the solution". I have heard many people say hey played better than expected last year and that they are OK with him being the starter this year or until we find someone better. The QB's in the draft hardly looked better to me. I am not "comfortable" with Fitz as our starter, but the sad thing is he's better than the other QB's we've had recently, and better then any available alternatives at the moment. Those kind of stats, or ANY stats are always overblown and usually taken out of context. Fitz had a mess of a team around him, a defense that gave up loads of points, and a pathetic running attack on offense, which meant opposing D's could T off on him against our awful and oft injured o-line. He had virtually no receiving core (except SJ, who dropped plenty of his own). Maybe you'd like the Bills to pick up Rob Johnson or JP Losman, who had better stats and QB ratings, but looked absolutely lost on the field. Fitz is no probowler, but the offense at least looked watchable for stretch's with him at the helm. Have a better solution than him? I'm all ears. Good honest way to look at the QB situation. I like the way you think, but God!!!! I wish you would get another avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Oh yes.....fans that root for Fitz have a complete lack of knowledge of the game....surrrrrre - 3000 yard passer - Led a 1st year starter to break Bill Brooks TD record - Has complete control of the offense.....as shown in how when he wasn't playing the offense complete fell apart (did you SEE what happened when Brohm started?) - Has the complete trust in his teamates....especially the starters which is where it counts the most Fitzy will never be confused with Tom Brady, Payton Manning, etc etc etc but he is a good enough starting QB until we get our hands on a QB of the future....thank god the people that run this team recognize that reaching for a QB would have been a horrible mistake when they can draft quality defense to keep putting the ball back in Fitzy's hands. You go John {insert fistbump]... A very subjective topic to begin with... performing well under pressure? How does that take into account, o-line, injuries to key personnel, rookie WR starters, how your defense can't get off the field to give you more chances, etc... we could always go back to captain checkdown till folks realize that almost every down a Bills QB faces pressure and at least Fitz takes some shots downfield rather than dump it 3 yrds when we need 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Where are you now McD? I only ask because I am recently retired from the USAF and noticed your sig. Currently at HQ AMC at Scott AFB, IL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Good honest way to look at the QB situation. I like the way you think, but God!!!! I wish you would get another avatar. Lol, yeah I even I'm getting disgusted by that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Currently at HQ AMC at Scott AFB, IL... Ah, I spent most of my career at MacDill AFB, FL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) You go John {insert fistbump]... A very subjective topic to begin with... performing well under pressure? How does that take into account, o-line, injuries to key personnel, rookie WR starters, how your defense can't get off the field to give you more chances, etc... we could always go back to captain checkdown till folks realize that almost every down a Bills QB faces pressure and at least Fitz takes some shots downfield rather than dump it 3 yrds when we need 12. +1, people flip out over numbers. Both Rob Johnson and Losman had consistently good QB ratings, but they were consistently awful QB's. They probably destroyed Fitz in these stats as well, Fitz actually got the ball out in an attempt to make plays...Not just take sack after sack... Edited May 16, 2011 by Turbosrrgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Hold your horses...I did not compare him to Kelly, someone else did and he asked me to answer the question what if Kelly had been on that team last year. I even said in my response to him that it was foolish to compare Fitz to Kelly as if they are similar. That did not come from me, but I simply answered the question he posed to me. Second, to answer your question about Kelly being a difference in the Balt game and the KC game...did you watch the games? If you did, then you would know we had a double digit half time lead that Fitz gave away in the 3rd for good with two very bad INT's that easily led to two Balt TD's. I am of the opinion that Kelly would have managed the game better and not had us playing from behind the rest of the game and better protected the lead. If you watched the KC game you would have seen one of Fitz's worst games of the season...he did not do enough to win that game, KC did enough to keep us in the game. KC dropped 3 gimme INT's (2 of which would have been pick sixes) for starters. Fitz had only one good drive the whole game, the late TD to SJ. Then he followed it up with a INT where we could have easily won the game with a FG in regulation. Then he missed a wide open Spiller for the win in the endzone BEFORE the missed FG. So again, Kelly IMO wins that game for us. And your QB rating in those 2 other games...NE it was high because he just was Trent reincarnated as he dumped passes off all day in check downs and failed to convert 3rd downs or extend drives. We only had a shot because of a Spiller ST TD in the 2nd half, otherwise it would have been a blow out. Jax game, he started ok then vanished in the 2nd half until the game was a blow out and he got garbage time TD with a minute left in the game against prevent when they were not covering anyone. That made his stats look good, but his performance was not. In fact, many posters (who now love Fitz) was saying it was time to start Brohm as we were going into the bye week after that game. So again, I see Kelly as being a bigger difference in those games. Yes I watched those games (hell, I was at the KC game)... so what you're saying is that we're going to be selective on how we view stats?? There's no way Fitz and Kelly will ever be confused for each other, but the thing both of those guys do is LEAD, not manage games. Fitz does have a presence... nothing near Jimbo, but compare him to any other QB we've had since Flutie. Again, we're asked to view ONLY a set of stats that do not show the fact that Fitz was being asked to play from behind nearly all the time with a mediocre line and mediocre talent (compared to Kelly and/or the best in the league these days). And when you play defense against a QB that you KNOW will be throwing the ball, you stand a MUCH higher chance of causing a turnover, etc. Can we agree to this...? Lol... comparing Jim Kelly to 95% of every QB that's ever played the game is a "no ****" answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 You go John {insert fistbump]... A very subjective topic to begin with... performing well under pressure? How does that take into account, o-line, injuries to key personnel, rookie WR starters, how your defense can't get off the field to give you more chances, etc... we could always go back to captain checkdown till folks realize that almost every down a Bills QB faces pressure and at least Fitz takes some shots downfield rather than dump it 3 yrds when we need 12. What is so confusing about this article that people bring in 100% completely unrelated factors that have absolutely zero to do with what the information being presented by the article? Number of chances because of the D had 100% nothing to do with anything discussed in this article. It has 100% nothing to do with quality of the O line. It has 100% nothing to do with injuries to that O line. The article is a comparison of how a QB performs on each pass attempt when a defender has broken through the pass protection for each QB. In other words, the pass protection has failed each QB in each pass attempt, not just failed Fitz. This has nothing to do with our defense either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Ah, I spent most of my career at MacDill AFB, FL. Today affectionately know as "Tampa-stan"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The one big concern I have with Chan Gailey is Jay Fiedler. Not understanding this comment. Jay Fiedler was an undrafted free agent who lacked any outstanding measurables. In spite of this, Gailey was able to milk two 11-win seasons out of Fiedler while he was OC in Miami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Not understanding this comment. Jay Fiedler was an undrafted free agent who lacked any outstanding measurables. In spite of this, Gailey was able to milk two 11-win seasons out of Fiedler while he was OC in Miami. Great statement. Facts. Gotta love em... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) What is so confusing about this article that people bring in 100% completely unrelated factors that have absolutely zero to do with what the information being presented by the article? Number of chances because of the D had 100% nothing to do with anything discussed in this article. It has 100% nothing to do with quality of the O line. It has 100% nothing to do with injuries to that O line. The article is a comparison of how a QB performs on each pass attempt when a defender has broken through the pass protection for each QB. In other words, the pass protection has failed each QB in each pass attempt, not just failed Fitz. This has nothing to do with our defense either. I don't agree... all of this is SUBJECTIVE... what does "breaking through the line" mean, and who decides it? If I'm a QB with a great O-line, playing with the lead, with a great pass blocking RB and a TE that can read and run a hot route, it makes ALL the difference in the world. If you think NONE of the above holds any water then we shouldn't play any football games on the field and annoint the Packers, Steelers, Patriots or Saints SB Champs already... Edited May 16, 2011 by McD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Time will tell good people. Time will tell. There are no other options at present so the Bills will dance with who they brung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertpaul49 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 That Miami team was a very talented team, but they stuck with Jay way too long instead of looking for the long-term replacement for Marino. Funny how Miami is in the same boat as Buffalo as far as quarterback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) What is so confusing about this article that people bring in 100% completely unrelated factors that have absolutely zero to do with what the information being presented by the article? Number of chances because of the D had 100% nothing to do with anything discussed in this article. It has 100% nothing to do with quality of the O line. It has 100% nothing to do with injuries to that O line. The article is a comparison of how a QB performs on each pass attempt when a defender has broken through the pass protection for each QB. In other words, the pass protection has failed each QB in each pass attempt, not just failed Fitz. This has nothing to do with our defense either. Wow. So outside variables have absolutely no affect on these stats? Even though we have no idea how they were computed? Even though "pressure" could mean endless different combinations of plays and situations? I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that... Edited May 16, 2011 by Turbosrrgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The article is a comparison of how a QB performs on each pass attempt when a defender has broken through the pass protection for each QB. In other words, the pass protection has failed each QB in each pass attempt, not just failed Fitz. And as to this point... would you rather have a QB that throws the ball away when he's hurried, or takes the sack a'la Trent Edwards...? So, a QB throws an incomplete pass... that could be a POSITIVE, but it doesn't break that down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Yes I watched those games (hell, I was at the KC game)... so what you're saying is that we're going to be selective on how we view stats?? There's no way Fitz and Kelly will ever be confused for each other, but the thing both of those guys do is LEAD, not manage games. Fitz does have a presence... nothing near Jimbo, but compare him to any other QB we've had since Flutie. Again, we're asked to view ONLY a set of stats that do not show the fact that Fitz was being asked to play from behind nearly all the time with a mediocre line and mediocre talent (compared to Kelly and/or the best in the league these days). And when you play defense against a QB that you KNOW will be throwing the ball, you stand a MUCH higher chance of causing a turnover, etc. Can we agree to this...? Lol... comparing Jim Kelly to 95% of every QB that's ever played the game is a "no ****" answer... I agree with everything you said...again, I did not bring Kelly into this discussion, someone else did and asked me a direct question about how Kelly would have fared on this team last year. I respected his question and answered his question with the assumption the games unfolded similarly on which games I believe Kelly would have been a factor that changed the outcome of the game. I like Fitz as a player a whole lot, he leads and plays with guts which I highly respect. But, that doesn't mean I am satisfied with what he did week in and week out on the field. It's great he has the attributes, and I wish we had more guys with those on this team, but that doesn't mean he is consistently doing the other things right as a QB. At the end of the day, the QB still needs to be able to consistently move the chains, score points while minimizing the turnovers, and get his accuracy under control...something he has not been able to deliver on thus far. I would LOVE it if he becomes that guy, I just don't have much confidence in that based on his body of work. Wow. So outside variables have absolutely no affect on these stats? Even though we have no idea how they were computed? Even though "pressure" could mean endless different combinations of plays and situations? I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that... Did you even read what I wrote or the article before you responded? I addressed specific variables that have 100% no relevance to this article that people keep bringing up, I did not say no variables. For example as you seem to have missed it, our defense had 100% nothing to do with this article, yet it is being used as an excuse. And you can use "variables" for every QB, but the ones that want to dismiss this article as worthless only apply variables to Fitz and no one else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyC81 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Interesting read. Not really any surprises however. I also think after the first few games, D-coordinators also figured this out and the scouting reports on him would say pretty much the same. Good backup, not a starter. I hope I'm wrong but I fear the 2nd year of Fitz could resemble the reduction in effectiveness for the 2nd year of Bledsoe, and the last chances for Losman and Edwards. Expectations that the player can't meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) And as to this point... would you rather have a QB that throws the ball away when he's hurried, or takes the sack a'la Trent Edwards...? So, a QB throws an incomplete pass... that could be a POSITIVE, but it doesn't break that down. 100% agree with you...but like many others, you are only giving Fitz credit for throwing the ball away and none of the other QB's. You act like the 29 QB's in front of him did not also throw the ball away to avoid sacks. He is not 30 out 34 QB's because he so genius to throw the ball away to avoid bad sacks and no other QB's thought to do the same...They all manage to throw balls away to avoid sacks yet 29 other QB's in the NFL were still able to overall out perform Fitz. Edited May 16, 2011 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts