Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Keep reading comments about transitioning our best D player, Probowler Kyle Williams, from NT to DE. The comments usually go something like "he's just not big enough to play NT". Would appreciate knowledgeable comments about the different responsibilities and how likely it is that Williams could make that transition. Would there be a learning curve? I hear similar comments about moving guys from LT to RT and know enough to say that isn't a slam dunk, the skill set and even ideal physique required is sufficiently different. Likewise ILB and OLB Don't know as much about the different DL positions, input (esp. from former players) appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I do not believe he has the speed or athletic ability to play DE. In confined area he is very good, but that doesn't mean he can play in space, and seal an end. Moving to end wouldn't limit his exposure to run much either, as they could go to his side, and unlike the middle were there are multiple linebacker to cover, on the end they can bring more blockers than players and expose him even more. If they go to a 3 man line, they will never have a good run defence with him on the field in my opinion. Is a great asset in a 4 man line however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 This has been posted a number of times, but is worth posting again: http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011/1/11/1927873/examining-multiple-defensive-fronts-featuring-kyle-williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I do not believe he has the speed or athletic ability to play DE. In confined area he is very good, but that doesn't mean he can play in space, and seal an end. Moving to end wouldn't limit his exposure to run much either, as they could go to his side, and unlike the middle were there are multiple linebacker to cover, on the end they can bring more blockers than players and expose him even more. If they go to a 3 man line, they will never have a good run defence with him on the field in my opinion. Is a great asset in a 4 man line however. hilarious how many guys posted Kyle can't play NT or DT or DE - the guy can play anywhere along the D-line he's that talented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Keep reading comments about transitioning our best D player, Probowler Kyle Williams, from NT to DE. The comments usually go something like "he's just not big enough to play NT". Would appreciate knowledgeable comments about the different responsibilities and how likely it is that Williams could make that transition. Would there be a learning curve? I hear similar comments about moving guys from LT to RT and know enough to say that isn't a slam dunk, the skill set and even ideal physique required is sufficiently different. Likewise ILB and OLB Don't know as much about the different DL positions, input (esp. from former players) appreciated. Lot of good talk on this in here http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/127010-can-kyle-williams-play-de-in-a-3-4/ Including the link Johnny posted that is a really great breakdown. Long story short, if he were playing the "inside" DE position, he could be very good there. He would not be the edge DE like Smith was, more of Hansen's role. If they go to a 3 man line, they will never have a good run defence with him on the field in my opinion. Is a great asset in a 4 man line however. This is ridiculous. The man is a force. Add talent around him and it doesnt matter what formation you want to run. Draft a guy like Dareus or Fairley and just put the biggest, meanest guys on the field and tell them to go to work. Run a 3-4, 4-3, heck a 2-5, just get the best players and hit someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 This has been posted a number of times, but is worth posting again: http://www.buffaloru...g-kyle-williams Yes it was, good read. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 This has been posted a number of times, but is worth posting again: http://www.buffaloru...g-kyle-williams This is exactly the sort of technical info I was hoping to get, fantastic - thanks so much! hilarious how many guys posted Kyle can't play NT or DT or DE - the guy can play anywhere along the D-line he's that talented. I appreciate your opinion and would welcome any basis or reasoning you have for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 hilarious how many guys posted Kyle can't play NT or DT or DE - the guy can play anywhere along the D-line he's that talented. The Bills have discovered that the point you make that he can play anywhere is true. However, even though he is adequate to great anywhere, he is better at one position (NT rather than DE is my sense). You want to play him where he is best if you can, this is simply common sense even if he is adequate at other positions. Further, again the determining factor for where you play him is not only his talent, but also what are the talents of his fellow teammates. Williams may be a better performer at NT than at DE, but if I am gonna employ Terrell Troup, he is clearly a better performer at NT so my inclination is actually to play Williams at a position where he is good but not great IF I have a player who can be great at the NT position and my alternatives at DE are substandard if I am forced to go with Stroud or Carrington at DE in order to play Williams at his best spot. Another variable enters into this judgment which makes it a bit more complicated than Williams can play anywhere in that my opponents are NFL professionals as well and they are doing things where they have the initiative on offense which I must defend. This factors in because if my defensive alignment chosen is going to tip off the opposing QB and OC where best to attack me. The point made in the very detailed article about DL line play is the key that various techniques which require different players to perform them adequately tips off the O as to how best to attack you. For example, if I am using Troup as my NT on a 3rd and 3 and thus employing Williams as my adequate to good playing DE, the offense now knows that running up the middle against Troup is unlikely to produce 3 yards. I also know Williams is a sometimes outstanding player due to his intensity and desire. So what I do is run a play where my blockers seal Troup inside as best they can (we are not going to run at him so if he is gonna stop me he is gonna have to show a lot of speed against blockers trying to seal him inside. Williams is a very good player, but I know he is better as a disruptive force inside. If he is going to make an outstanding play at DE he is good enough to do this, but to do this he is going to have to guess right and commit himself fully to pressuring the rush either inside or outside the tackle. My RB is handed the ball and basically needs to read which way Williams is committing and go the other way if mt DT blocking of Troup seals the inside. This is why its the ultimate team game because the likely key to this play succeeding or failing is whether the OLB does well nailing the RB now that I have committed two blockers to seal Troup. dealt with Williams by having one blocker steer him even more to the direction he wants to go and have my RB read Williams move and go the other side. My RB is now at the LOS with forward momentum and he now has the difficult job of beating the LOB with one move and he might be free to roam (particularly if my WRs have sold the crossing pattern and the Bills safeties are dropping into pass coverage or simply late in attacking the LOS. If the Bills however amidst shifting DL players in waves to keep them fresh and a player such as Stroud can also adequately be a DT or DE, then it is harder for me to pick a blocking scheme and more difficult for the QB and RB to know who to read. To make this even more complicated, if the Bills can adequately play a 4-3 or 3-4 and do so with the same players, the offensive read cannot happen until the actual play starts and the Bills may be shifting in mid snap count. The bottomline is that while it is great Williams can play multiple positions adequately, he needs his teammates also to be able to do multiple things adequately or it simply makes it an easy read as to how to best defeat or avoid Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Hplarrm: Nice, well thought out post. The problem with the Buffalo's defense has a lot to do with gap responsibility. Defensive linemen such as Kyle Williams and Marcus Stroud are both penetrating defensive tackles. That is simply what their strengths are. The defensive line tried a number of different fronts to correct their inability to stop the run. The problem is that while the scheme changes may have actually been correct, everyone has a gap responsibility and did not do what they were supposed to do. Take a look at recent comments by Paul P. Linebackers often were not covering the correct gap because our defensive linemen are very much nontraditional 3-4 defensive linemen. They were penetrating instead of creating an immovable wall leaving the linebackers to guess too late what their gap assignment should be. Bringing in Wannstedt to coach the inside linebackers should really help here. This team tried a lot of different things while trying to figure out where player strengths are. The result was a bleeding run defense. There was improvement in the second half of the season but our linebackers had a rough time. When you have Kyle lined up directly over center for instance and he could hit the left A gap or the right A gap, this leaves the linebacker in the compromising position of trying to figure out which gap he needs to fill. People keep saying that we are not big enough up front but that simply was not the case. Dwan Edwards at 290lbs, Marcus Stroud at 310lbs and Kyle Williams at 310 is pretty damned big. The problem is not size or talent. It's gap responsibility and coaching. This defense has talent but yes, could still use some key acquisitions. People think that adding a big DT or DE or LB is the key but I am going on record and saying that the coaching was inadequate more than anything last year. The overall defense will see a huge improvement with the addition of Wanny. Watch and see. As for the draft, I expect some picks that no ever saw coming once again. The coaching staff has now had a full year to evaluate players. Now we get to see what the next phase is. When Nix and Gailey talk, they do not at any time sound like they are going to hold 100% to any given scheme. They sound uncomfortable when asked directly what their base package is going to be. People have to understand that everything is not in black and white(3-4 or 4-3). The coaches have to utilize player strengths and figure out who has to play what gap. It's an interesting challenge and I don't think there is only one way to fix our problems defensively. Who knows how they are going to do it? Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Hplarrm: Nice, well thought out post. The problem with the Buffalo's defense has a lot to do with gap responsibility. Defensive linemen such as Kyle Williams and Marcus Stroud are both penetrating defensive tackles. That is simply what their strengths are. The defensive line tried a number of different fronts to correct their inability to stop the run. The problem is that while the scheme changes may have actually been correct, everyone has a gap responsibility and did not do what they were supposed to do. Take a look at recent comments by Paul P. Linebackers often were not covering the correct gap because our defensive linemen are very much nontraditional 3-4 defensive linemen. They were penetrating instead of creating an immovable wall leaving the linebackers to guess too late what their gap assignment should be. Bringing in Wannstedt to coach the inside linebackers should really help here. This team tried a lot of different things while trying to figure out where player strengths are. The result was a bleeding run defense. There was improvement in the second half of the season but our linebackers had a rough time. When you have Kyle lined up directly over center for instance and he could hit the left A gap or the right A gap, this leaves the linebacker in the compromising position of trying to figure out which gap he needs to fill. People keep saying that we are not big enough up front but that simply was not the case. Dwan Edwards at 290lbs, Marcus Stroud at 310lbs and Kyle Williams at 310 is pretty damned big. The problem is not size or talent. It's gap responsibility and coaching. This defense has talent but yes, could still use some key acquisitions. People think that adding a big DT or DE or LB is the key but I am going on record and saying that the coaching was inadequate more than anything last year. The overall defense will see a huge improvement with the addition of Wanny. Watch and see. As for the draft, I expect some picks that no ever saw coming once again. The coaching staff has now had a full year to evaluate players. Now we get to see what the next phase is. When Nix and Gailey talk, they do not at any time sound like they are going to hold 100% to any given scheme. They sound uncomfortable when asked directly what their base package is going to be. People have to understand that everything is not in black and white(3-4 or 4-3). The coaches have to utilize player strengths and figure out who has to play what gap. It's an interesting challenge and I don't think there is only one way to fix our problems defensively. Who knows how they are going to do it? Time will tell. Agreed as to your thoughts and also thanks for the compliments. It does seem clear from the limited coaching changes made that the braintrust sees the focus for change as being not only the usual player changes but also the old LB coach being inadequate (a sign to me that the coach was simply not getting his players to make the right reads or use their individual techniques properly). However, Gailey also seems to have identified a strategic problem such that he saw it necessary to get Wammy. Good theoretical move from my perspective, however, now we have the hard part of making it work. The question arises though as to whether Gailey sees the strategic problem as being so bad that really what Wanny is here for is to make up for Edwards DC failings? I actually think that this is not the case as quite frankly the off-season moves are a backhanded endorsement of Edwards being seen as an important part of the team's future by the braintrust. I say this because after the putrid run results this past season who would have shed a tear or been the least bit surprised or questioning if Edwards had been fired? It really took an intentional act to keep Edwards on as the default clearly would have been to let him go. Edwards is around because Gailey/Nix bought something from his performance that the team kept him around. I am not sure what it is but they decided to keep him on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Agreed as to your thoughts and also thanks for the compliments. It does seem clear from the limited coaching changes made that the braintrust sees the focus for change as being not only the usual player changes but also the old LB coach being inadequate (a sign to me that the coach was simply not getting his players to make the right reads or use their individual techniques properly). However, Gailey also seems to have identified a strategic problem such that he saw it necessary to get Wammy. Good theoretical move from my perspective, however, now we have the hard part of making it work. The question arises though as to whether Gailey sees the strategic problem as being so bad that really what Wanny is here for is to make up for Edwards DC failings? I actually think that this is not the case as quite frankly the off-season moves are a backhanded endorsement of Edwards being seen as an important part of the team's future by the braintrust. I say this because after the putrid run results this past season who would have shed a tear or been the least bit surprised or questioning if Edwards had been fired? It really took an intentional act to keep Edwards on as the default clearly would have been to let him go. Edwards is around because Gailey/Nix bought something from his performance that the team kept him around. I am not sure what it is but they decided to keep him on board. Or it just could be that the ILB coach was not communicating with the Defensive Coordinator or the Defensive Line Coach. With the team trying out different kinds of fronts last year, I can see how something like that could easily be a problem. I think Gailey still has faith in Edward's abilities but saw a problem with linebacker play, hence the Wannstedt signing. All indications so far appear that everyone is now on the same page as far as resolving to work together. In Wannstedt's latest interview, he seemed pretty sure that the run defense would be fixed. He's been around long enough to know, so I don't doubt that he understands the responsibility and accountability involved. His signing as Assistant Head Coach is relevant but so is his signing as ILBs Coach. But it is also nice to have Wannstedt as an added security blanket if things don't work out with Edwards. Maybe the signing of Wannstedt is also a message to Edwards that he is expendable. Who knows? I'm not sure I buy that scenario though. I honestly think that management is simply trying their best to get the most out of product on the field and is working toward a common goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 KW would make a better 34 end than 34 NG. Thats because his role as a 34 end would be more like his role as a 43 NG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 It depends how badly the player wants it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Congrats to all. So far this has been my favorite thread of 2011. Great information and intelligent discussion on a topic I've been thinking a lot about. Wish TSW had more threads like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Congrats to all. So far this has been my favorite thread of 2011. Great information and intelligent discussion on a topic I've been thinking a lot about. Wish TSW had more threads like this. I don't know about all that. We are sitting in our armchairs and speculating like everyone else. I do think that a transition from 4-3 DT to 3-4 DE is a possible. Marcus Stroud did it last year and actually managed to get 3 sacks from that position(very hard to do in a 3-4 allignment). Can Kyle Williams do the same? Sure, but I think the coaches likes him best in the NT position and want to build around that. In order to do that effectively they need the whole defense to be on the same page. I really think that the Wannstedt signing was exactly what they felt would help them the most. Teams like Dallas and Miami had some damn fine linebacker play during Wanny's tenures there. My personal opinion is that too much emphasis has been placed on comparisons to 3-4 and 4-3. No matter what scheme you run, the Defensive Linemen and Linebackers need to be responsible and accountable for hitting their gap assignment correctly. This was a big problem last year and that is why our run defense was so poor. Do we need to add more talent? Absolutely. Are we as untalented as everyone is saying? I personally am not buying the notion that our entire defense stinks with the exception of Kyle Williams. There are a lot of schemes that can be successful but our guys need to know how they fit into each scheme personally. The coaches are responsible for that and must make each player accountable for their assignment. That was very difficult for the Bill's last year because they kept changing the alignment in an effort to play to the team's strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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