Mr. Wilson And Jerry Jones

[Bill from NYC]

Fezmid made a good point that if Spiller was a Ralph pick, he'd be playing a LOT more, and probably made the starter going into the season.

 

Doc, are you really going to tell me that running up to the podium and selecting Spiller in a minute or so was sound thinking in terms of building a football team?

The team is stuggling on both sides of the LOS, let alone the horrendous LB corps. They gave NO consideration to a tradedown whatsoever, and took a player who looked like, now AND then, a part time player.

Are you also suggesting that Ralph's comments about "adding excitement" had nothing to do with ticket sales/money in his pocket? RB was one of the only strong positions on this weak team when entering the draft.

I readily admit that Nix did try to address the defense after round 1, and I applaud this.

 

My original post was an attempt to try to point out the irony of a smug Jones, who now has similar problems to Mr. Wilson due to his inteference with football professionals.

As for the Spiller selection, you can defend it as you wish my old friend, but certainly you must admit that in terms of building a strong, suitable football team for WNY, it is getting harder to do so as time passes.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Bill from NYC

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

5)tRalph almost certainly brought us Spiller

 

 

Link?

 

Otherwise this would just be another baseless, undocumented rant.

[Bill from NYC]

Link?

 

Otherwise this would just be another baseless, undocumented rant.

 

Joe, it's great to hear from you.

[Doc]

The 2006 CBA favored the "big market teams"? By making them cough up 200 million for the low revenue teams? By allowing the low budget teams NOT to spend 59.5% o their revenue on players if they didn't feel like it? Look at all the "big market" SB winners since that CBA!

 

This isn't MLB, where the Yankees can simply overwhelm a player with money and own him. You obviously imagine that it is. And with JJ running the Cowboys, they have won 3 SBs.

 

No, he didn't have to build that ridiculous stadium, but I doubt, facing a 650 million dollar debt, it eases his mind to know that it's not 1 billion. He still has to pay the money back. The PSL's haven't paid the debt. The interest alone must be staggering. SO he feels the pressure to produce a winner on the field and, generally, despite your imagination, he has done so.

 

Ralph has no such worries--in fact, he could probably give away 20% of the gate and still make dollar 1. Nearly all of his costs are covered by the free money the League hands him each year from the TV contracts negotiated by his colleagues on his behalf (hint, the TV execs who shell out that money don't include Bills viewership in the calculations).

 

Jones can't bring himself to admit he made a mistake on a coach?? Well, what about his much ballyhooed (here) mea culpa regarding Chan Gailey? And Ralph doesn't get credit for firing Jauron "mid-season". You are being very disngenuous (and I know why) here. You are leaving out the part where, against all sanity, Ralph renewed DJ's contract the prior season after a 5-0 start when you and Ralph (that's why!) were convinced Jauron would be so expensive by that season's end that he had to be resigned immediately. It was a bald-faced money saving move, pure and simple. It was ridiculed uniformly (except by you) by the end of the season. It was so poor of a decision that the FO refused to admit they had done so until the end of the season.

 

 

Why do you think the Bills were rebuffed? Is it because of...the state income tax? hahahahaha.

Did you ever wonder why the owners who crafted the CBA made the cap based on total revenue and not a higher percentage of shared revenue? And why they caved and gave the players that large a percentage increase anyway? It's obvious (to most). And you unwittingly proved my point about spending money on GM's, coaches, and players not guaranteeing anything.

 

The Cowboys won 3 SB's because of Mike Lynn's stupidity. Not because of Jerruh, or even JJ. The problem is, he thinks it was because of him.

 

The stadium is Jerruh's own fault. He gets no sympathy for his debts resulting from it and if he takes a bath on it, good. He was raking in the dough in Texas Stadium and his team having paid for itself may times over (he had no debt either). But he got greedy. The taxpayers and fans will end-up paying for about 1/3 of the stadium, but Jones will own it. The $80M Ralph demanded back in 1998 and the $2.9M a year for improvements (which Ralph has waived a few times in the past) pale in comparison to what Jerruh got, and Ralph doesn't/won't own the stadium. And ticket prices are still the lowest in the NFL, not the highest.

 

Ralph gets no credit for firing a guy mid-season, a year after giving him a large extension for a 5-0 start? And Jerruh is less of a fool in keeping Phillips when it's been obvious for years that he's not a good HC? Wow.

 

I've already mentioned the numerous reasons why the Bills were rebuffed. Nice try though.

[JohnC]

Ralph gets no credit for firing a guy mid-season, a year after giving him a large extension for a 5-0 start?

 

The dumbass owner prematurely gave DJ an extension. To make matters worse DJ was given more authority in personnel. Why should the clown owner be given credit for firing a HC who should not have been hired in the first place? To add to the insanity giving Dick more authority in the operation resulted in such cartoonish decisions as taking Whitner ahead of Ngta and drafting Maybin instead of a boatload of other better prospects.

 

The goofy owner has a habit of making decisions which set the franchise back instead of moving it forward. The Levy hire was beyond being inexplicable. It was outright odd. Maybe not quite as odd as replacing the fleeing Levy with a marketing guru. The smartest thing this very befuddled owner can do is nothing.

[Doc]

Doc, are you really going to tell me that running up to the podium and selecting Spiller in a minute or so was sound thinking in terms of building a football team?

The team is stuggling on both sides of the LOS, let alone the horrendous LB corps. They gave NO consideration to a tradedown whatsoever, and took a player who looked like, now AND then, a part time player.

Are you also suggesting that Ralph's comments about "adding excitement" had nothing to do with ticket sales/money in his pocket? RB was one of the only strong positions on this weak team when entering the draft.

I readily admit that Nix did try to address the defense after round 1, and I applaud this.

 

My original post was an attempt to try to point out the irony of a smug Jones, who now has similar problems to Mr. Wilson due to his inteference with football professionals.

As for the Spiller selection, you can defend it as you wish my old friend, but certainly you must admit that in terms of building a strong, suitable football team for WNY, it is getting harder to do so as time passes.

I believe they felt that Spiller was the BPA, after the QB, OT's, and DT's they wanted were taken. Why reach for a need, which has gotten then in trouble in the past?

 

As for trading down, there were 7 picks worth of time for someone to come calling for the pick. I doubt anyone did.

 

And again, if Spiller was Ralph's pick, he'd be starting, not a bit player.

[BuffaloBill]

As much as I hate to say it, but the Cowboys don't compare to the Bills....Jones

expects to win and goes after it. As can be seen in their pursuit of quality personnel. The results may not show it this year, but at least they've been in the conversation. Wilson says he wants to win then allows 10+ years of questionable decisions to materialize.

 

I could not disagree more. Jones has driven the cowgirls into the ground. He is an owner worse than Ralph.

[Orton's Arm]

OK.

 

I think that this team needs to be stronger on the lines and at LB, and to win football games. Levy/Jauron destroyed this team with their horrid drafts. One poster (don't remember who) said that one could give an 18 year old kid 3 draft magazines and he would have done better than these two incompetent men. I FULLY agree.

 

Ralph is a businessman. You don't see me bashing him much on this board because I respect him, and thank him for keeping the team in WNY. But, he should never be confused with a football man.

 

You are right in that I offer no concrete proof that he was heavily involved in that pick but again, Mr. Wilson is a money man. Flashy players sell seats, beer, jerseys, etc. Making millions is the expertise of Mr. Wilson. He isn't an expert at building a good football team and got rid of those who were.

I fully agree with the bolded text--especially as it relates to the Levy era. In fact, I would think it's self-evident that a kid with a draft guide would have done a better job of drafting than Levy did. Levy's only two success stories--including both the draft and free agent signings--were Poz and Kyle Williams, with an emphasis on Williams. Give that 18 year old kid two drafts with which to work, some money to spend on free agents, and sign him up to receive the reports of National Scouting Service, and if he was reasonably intelligent and motivated he'd probably do better than just that.

 

But either things improved in 2008, or else the mistakes made that year haven't yet become fully evident. (Or some combination of the two.) Potential success stories from that year include the following players:

• McKelvin
  
• Corner
  
• Demetrius Bell
  
• Steve Johnson

Of those four guys, probably only two or three will turn into long-term answers at starting positions. That's a pace of about 2.5 answers per year, as opposed to the one answer per year we saw under Levy.

[Mr. WEO]

Did you ever wonder why the owners who crafted the CBA made the cap based on total revenue and not a higher percentage of shared revenue? And why they caved and gave the players that large a percentage increase anyway? It's obvious (to most). And you unwittingly proved my point about spending money on GM's, coaches, and players not guaranteeing anything.

 

The Cowboys won 3 SB's because of Mike Lynn's stupidity. Not because of Jerruh, or even JJ. The problem is, he thinks it was because of him.

 

The stadium is Jerruh's own fault. He gets no sympathy for his debts resulting from it and if he takes a bath on it, good. He was raking in the dough in Texas Stadium and his team having paid for itself may times over (he had no debt either). But he got greedy. The taxpayers and fans will end-up paying for about 1/3 of the stadium, but Jones will own it. The $80M Ralph demanded back in 1998 and the $2.9M a year for improvements (which Ralph has waived a few times in the past) pale in comparison to what Jerruh got, and Ralph doesn't/won't own the stadium. And ticket prices are still the lowest in the NFL, not the highest.

 

Ralph gets no credit for firing a guy mid-season, a year after giving him a large extension for a 5-0 start? And Jerruh is less of a fool in keeping Phillips when it's been obvious for years that he's not a good HC? Wow.

 

I've already mentioned the numerous reasons why the Bills were rebuffed. Nice try though.

We've been over this. Very few players saw a "raise" in their salaries after the new CBA raised the cap--you have already conceded this. Why you are going back to your previous position is bizarre. The "big market owners" pushed for the increased cap so they could outspend all the "small market teams"?? Really? Is that what's "obvious"?

 

Let's see, in 2006, the top spending team was...the Colts. Only one "big market" team in the top 5 actually--the rest are small markets: Minny, Cincy, Baltimore. 2007?: NO, Buff, KC--all tiny towns in the top 5. 2008?: Oakland, Cleveland, NO, Minny. So it seems that the "small market teams were a lot more happy to spend the extra money than the big bad "big market teams". In fact NO was in the top 5 in spending for the past 3 years and they went form bag on the heads to SB champion in that time. Don't tell me what's "obvious"---you further your misunderstanding of the CBA every time you post on it.

 

No one has sympathy for Jones and no one thinks that simply spending money will bring success in the NFL. You are pretty good at shooting down arguments no one is making, though. The point is that Jones is too involved in his quest for team success. Ralph is not in such a quest at all.

 

Jones seems to fill that stadium despite the high price. Ralph will struggle to fill his stadium in December despite the price of his tickets. Go figure.

[Doc]

We've been over this. Very few players saw a "raise" in their salaries after the new CBA raised the cap--you have already conceded this. Why you are going back to your previous position is bizarre. The "big market owners" pushed for the increased cap so they could outspend all the "small market teams"?? Really? Is that what's "obvious"?

 

Let's see, in 2006, the top spending team was...the Colts. Only one "big market" team in the top 5 actually--the rest are small markets: Minny, Cincy, Baltimore. 2007?: NO, Buff, KC--all tiny towns in the top 5. 2008?: Oakland, Cleveland, NO, Minny. So it seems that the "small market teams were a lot more happy to spend the extra money than the big bad "big market teams". In fact NO was in the top 5 in spending for the past 3 years and they went form bag on the heads to SB champion in that time. Don't tell me what's "obvious"---you further your misunderstanding of the CBA every time you post on it.

 

No one has sympathy for Jones and no one thinks that simply spending money will bring success in the NFL. You are pretty good at shooting down arguments no one is making, though. The point is that Jones is too involved in his quest for team success. Ralph is not in such a quest at all.

 

Jones seems to fill that stadium despite the high price. Ralph will struggle to fill his stadium in December despite the price of his tickets. Go figure.

The only thing I "conceded" was your "every team didn't spend up to the new (59.5% of total revenues) cap limit." Which was moot because they never had before either (when it was 54.3% of total revenues). What was important was the (~5%) percentage increase, and I showed you the facts and figures to prove it, not tossing out some baseless statement like "it was going to rise anyway." Apparently we didn't go over this enough.

 

You're best off not talking about the CBA, doc. It's abundantly clear you have zero understanding of it, as evidenced by the above and your "it was a good deal...until the situation changed." You are a party of one in thinking that that CBA was a good deal at any time. And talking about just the top-5 teams is a nice misdirection by you. I never claimed that the biggest markets would occupy every slot at the top of the payroll list. Talk about shooting down arguments that don't exist.

 

As for Jones' alleged "desire," it's little more than talk. His motivation for having a winning team has more to do with making himself more money and covering his nuts than anything else. I mean, it's not like he broke the bank for his current GM and coach, or that he's going to give the fans their money back for the Cowboys' dismal performance this year. The fact that the Bills are usually in the top-10 in payroll should tell you that Ralph cares about winning, since if he didn't, the Bills would annually have one of the lowest payrolls. Do you think that if Jones had been the owner of the Bills, they'd have stayed in Buffalo this long?

 

You mean it's harder to fill an open-air stadium in December than a climate-controlled dome? Did you know water is wet? They sold-out this season LAST year, so that means little. But I'd be surprised if everyone shows up to see a 1-15 team.

[Mr. WEO]

The only thing I "conceded" was your "every team didn't spend up to the new (59.5% of total revenues) cap limit." Which was moot because they never had before either (when it was 54.3% of total revenues). What was important was the (~5%) percentage increase, and I showed you the facts and figures to prove it, not tossing out some baseless statement like "it was going to rise anyway." Apparently we didn't go over this enough.

 

You're best off not talking about the CBA, doc. It's abundantly clear you have zero understanding of it, as evidenced by the above and your "it was a good deal...until the situation changed." You are a party of one in thinking that that CBA was a good deal at any time. And talking about just the top-5 teams is a nice misdirection by you. I never claimed that the biggest markets would occupy every slot at the top of the payroll list. Talk about shooting down arguments that don't exist.

 

As for Jones' alleged "desire," it's little more than talk. His motivation for having a winning team has more to do with making himself more money and covering his nuts than anything else. I mean, it's not like he broke the bank for his current GM and coach, or that he's going to give the fans their money back for the Cowboys' dismal performance this year. The fact that the Bills are usually in the top-10 in payroll should tell you that Ralph cares about winning, since if he didn't, the Bills would annually have one of the lowest payrolls. Do you think that if Jones had been the owner of the Bills, they'd have stayed in Buffalo this long?

 

You mean it's harder to fill an open-air stadium in December than a climate-controlled dome? Did you know water is wet? They sold-out this season LAST year, so that means little. But I'd be surprised if everyone shows up to see a 1-15 team.

You said:

AND the fact that his 2006 CBA was set-up to favor big market teams,

 

 

It seemed to me that you meant that it favored them because they could afford to, and would, spend more money than the small market teams. I've shown you this is not true. Small market teams jumped at the chance to spend more. (I thought listing the top 5 was a good was to show the obvious false nature of your argument---it's clear you have a problem with this). The big market teams' costs actually went up af the CBA even if they didn't spend more on players because they were on the hook for a 5 fold increase in the welfare they would have to pay out to low revenue teams. Anyway, I'm with the 30 billionairish types who thought the CBA was good business (and the cash register agrees with us) to sign the CBA when they did. It cost Ralph absolutley nothing--he knew this all along (he was just angling for extra welfare money). In fact, he made over $100 million after the ink dried. You don't seem to understand this, but ol' Ralphie does.

 

Good teams with rabid fan bases fill the stands even in cold weather doc. Very weak.

 

Gee, if Jones were the Bills owner he would have never put them in Buffalo in the first place. Good point though.

 

Perhaps there is some other reason why the CBA was set-up to favor the big market teams other than player salaries?

[NaPolian8693]

You know what's the difference between Jerry Jones and Ralph Wilson?

 

Super Bowl Rings.

[34-78-83]

I believe they felt that Spiller was the BPA, after the QB, OT's, and DT's they wanted were taken. Why reach for a need, which has gotten then in trouble in the past?

 

As for trading down, there were 7 picks worth of time for someone to come calling for the pick. I doubt anyone did.

 

And again, if Spiller was Ralph's pick, he'd be starting, not a bit player.

 

Thats just it. I wish we could get access to every team's draft boards cuz I doubt ANY of them had the 3rd offensive tackle rated anywhere near as high as Spiller, let alone other positions. He was easily the BPA at the time of selection.

[Doc]

You said:

 

 

 

It seemed to me that you meant that it favored them because they could afford to, and would, spend more money than the small market teams. I've shown you this is not true. Small market teams jumped at the chance to spend more. (I thought listing the top 5 was a good was to show the obvious false nature of your argument---it's clear you have a problem with this). The big market teams' costs actually went up af the CBA even if they didn't spend more on players because they were on the hook for a 5 fold increase in the welfare they would have to pay out to low revenue teams. Anyway, I'm with the 30 billionairish types who thought the CBA was good business (and the cash register agrees with us) to sign the CBA when they did. It cost Ralph absolutley nothing--he knew this all along (he was just angling for extra welfare money). In fact, he made over $100 million after the ink dried. You don't seem to understand this, but ol' Ralphie does.

 

Good teams with rabid fan bases fill the stands even in cold weather doc. Very weak.

 

Gee, if Jones were the Bills owner he would have never put them in Buffalo in the first place. Good point though.

 

Perhaps there is some other reason why the CBA was set-up to favor the big market teams other than player salaries?

I'm done explaining the CBA to you, doc. The fact that the owners killed it just 2 years after signing it says all anyone needs to know about it. And ask Jerry Jones if a lockout now is better for him than a lockout back in 2006 (not that it would have happened then, whereas now it looks like a foregone conclusion).

 

The Bills have had a handful of seasons where they've sold out every game, doc. And during the SB years, they never even got close to selling more than 60K season tix, for an 80K seat stadium. While now fans will sell their tix to the fans of opposing teams so they can recoup their already low investment in season tix. You're indicting Bills fans more than anything else here.

 

Buffalo was a thriving city when the team was first placed there. That however wasn't the point. You keep deflecting the fact that Jones is primarily in it to make money. As are all the owners. You see, Ralph is not alone in that regard. But Ralph hasn't demanded hundreds of millions from Erie County or gouged the fans, while he's spent money on players (oh wait, that's right, another gem of yours was "fans don't care about players.").

[Bill from NYC]

Thats just it. I wish we could get access to every team's draft boards cuz I doubt ANY of them had the 3rd offensive tackle rated anywhere near as high as Spiller, let alone other positions. He was easily the BPA at the time of selection.

 

The importance of Spiller being the BPA fades when your team is dreadful up front, horrid at LB, and strong at running back. They rushed up to the podium to select a situational player at #9, not even considering a tradedown.

I make the case that the Bills were too weak to be entitled to this luxury.

[Mr. WEO]

I'm done explaining the CBA to you, doc. The fact that the owners killed it just 2 years after signing it says all anyone needs to know about it. And ask Jerry Jones if a lockout now is better for him than a lockout back in 2006 (not that it would have happened then, whereas now it looks like a foregone conclusion).

 

The Bills have had a handful of seasons where they've sold out every game, doc. And during the SB years, they never even got close to selling more than 60K season tix, for an 80K seat stadium. While now fans will sell their tix to the fans of opposing teams so they can recoup their already low investment in season tix. You're indicting Bills fans more than anything else here.

 

Buffalo was a thriving city when the team was first placed there. That however wasn't the point. You keep deflecting the fact that Jones is primarily in it to make money. As are all the owners. You see, Ralph is not alone in that regard. But Ralph hasn't demanded hundreds of millions from Erie County or gouged the fans, while he's spent money on players (oh wait, that's right, another gem of yours was "fans don't care about players.").

Of course Jones is in it to make money! But his huge ego makes losing, especially now, a source of personal embarrassment. That alone motivates him to put a winning team together, which he has done in the past. This year is surprising to many. Ralph shows no such desire or embarrassment. Instead he sells home games to canadians and announces THIS year that it will be another (arbitrarily chosen) 3 years before we are a contender again.

 

Ralph did demand money be spent on "Ralph Wilson Stadium" and threatened to move if they didn't. HE didn't offer to help with the costs, despite being the single main beneficiary of the stadium's existence.

 

Prior to the Jags game, the Bills had sold out 26 straight home games.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

You know what's the difference between Jerry Jones and Ralph Wilson?

 

Super Bowl Rings.

To paraphrase Jerruh himself, "any owner could have won those SB's with that team."

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Joe, it's great to hear from you.

 

 

Nice to be heard. Got that link?

[Bill from NYC]

Nice to be heard. Got that link?

 

Get your meds adjusted buddy. It's worth a try.