Article from another 0-5 Team

[Hapless Bills Fan]

another perspective on an 0-5 team dissatisfied with their quarterback:

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/columns/ci_16314773?nclick_check=1

 

notable quotes:

"The point is most teams don't have the luxury of a great, or very good, quarterback.

Despite youthful inconsistency or veteran mediocrity, some teams have found a win or three."

Interesting point that most teams find a way to win with a QB who is less than great or very good. Hmmmm

 

"Wasn't defense supposed to be the strength of these 49ers? Weren't an average offense and

a stout defense thought to be enough to win the NFC West?"

 

I suppose it should me feel a little better that the team picked to win the NFC West is in the same sinking boat.

It doesn't, but I suppose it should

 

and finally a familiar song:

"If you want to blame the 49ers for anything, it's the failure to vigorously pursue McNabb in the offseason, for placing all faith in Smith."

 

Huh.

[BillsVet]

Which teams are going deep into the playoffs with average QB'ing? None. Most teams may not have good to great QB'ing, and most teams don't make the playoffs either.

 

No position in pro sports means more to wins and losses than a NFL QB and the teams with a good one are advancing into the postseason. This decade alone, the SB participants have by and large had good to excellent QB's. And if they didn't, it was because they were elite on the defensive side of the ball or could run it.

 

A rookie QB may not solve everything, but get that piece first and surround them. It takes a lot of financial investment in players and coaching, which is why I don't see the Bills next rebuild being successful. That, and the scouting staff and many in the front office couldn't get fired if they'd have drafted JaMarcus Russell and paid him more than Al Davis.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Which teams are going deep into the playoffs with average QB'ing? None.

 

"Alex, I'll have 'most recent average QB who took his team deep into the playoffs' for $400, please"

Bzzzzzzzt "Your answer please?"

"Who is Rex Grossman?"

 

Joking aside, I think that's missing the point of the article.

Not talking "deep into the playoffs"

Just talking "win, Baby". And most teams do, even with a so-so QB tossing the pigskin.

 

Moving back to the Bill's most recent HOF QB.

Kelly came to a Bills team which had a top-five offensive line, a top WR and a solid TE before he got here.

The D had a veteran leader NT, Bruce Smith and Darryl Talley.

 

1. Would Kelly have had the same storied career if he had come to the Bills in 1983, before those pieces were in place?

2. Can anyone provide examples of a team which sucked on both lines, and turned things around by drafting a star college QB into the mess?

[DanInUticaTampa]

Which teams are going deep into the playoffs with average QB'ing? None.

 

hard to tell this year, but the jests got far into the playoffs last year with average QBing.

 

Right now, I think the playoff race is wide open. Too many teams are struggleing.

[BillsVet]

"Alex, I'll have 'most recent average QB who took his team deep into the playoffs' for $400, please"

Bzzzzzzzt "Your answer please?"

"Who is Rex Grossman?"

 

Joking aside, I think that's missing the point of the article.

Not talking "deep into the playoffs"

Just talking "win, Baby". And most teams do, even with a so-so QB tossing the pigskin.

 

Moving back to the Bill's most recent HOF QB.

Kelly came to a Bills team which had a top-five offensive line, a top WR and a solid TE before he got here.

The D had a veteran leader NT, Bruce Smith and Darryl Talley.

 

1. Would Kelly have had the same storied career if he had come to the Bills in 1983, before those pieces were in place?

2. Can anyone provide examples of a team which sucked on both lines, and turned things around by drafting a star college QB into the mess?

 

This decade alone, the SB participants have by and large had good to excellent QB's. And if they didn't, it was because they were elite on the defensive side of the ball or could run it.

 

Here's what I said when referencing SB participants. You can joke all you want, but SB teams either had an outstanding QB or had an average one with a stellar defense and a running game. In 2006, Grossman had the benefit of a fine defense, with Urlacher, Briggs, Tommie Harris, and a few others. The 09-10 Jets were/are led by an excellent defense (similar to the 08 Ravens) that featured rookie QB's. They were defense first teams that ran the ball, exactly as I mentioned above. That's how they went to the SB.

 

The issue you're arguing is as old as time. Take the QB first or go build other areas. If there are so few stellar QB's in the NFL, doesn't it behoove this team to use their top pick should one become available? There are no guarantees on draft day, just like everyday life. So being afraid of a bust should be mitigated by having a fine scouting department with a savvy GM who knows what they're doing.

 

Jim Kelly didn't come to the Bills in 1983, and I don't live in hypothetical world. When he signed, Polian had already made some fine picks, and followed it up with others, including Wolford, Ballard, McKellar, and others. Metzelaars was received in a trade, That's why this team is so far behind: they have absolutely no building blocks at the hard positions of pass rusher and OT. Polian only got the QB because the USFL went out of business and lost a major court case.

 

If you want to ask questions that can't be answered, fine. But this team will have one top pick that will be untradeable come April IF it's a QB driven league (it is) and a QB is available and worthy of the top pick (we don't know) then that person must be taken. For the sake of history, 8 of the last 10 #1 overall picks have been QB's. Think franchises don't know how important a QB is?

 

I can tell you that when faced with a massive rebuilding (Lions 09, Falcons 08, Colts 98, SD 04, NYG 04) teams will eschew OL and DL when a QB is available at the top of the draft. They fill in from that start.

 

And I don't think any fan should settle 3 years from now (if the team's here) with a team that ekes out a playoff berth. I expect the team to be a contender and not just happy to go to the party. Man, losing for 10 years has lowered expectations so far.

Edited October 17, 2010 by BillsVet

[DanInUticaTampa]

I will be disappointed very much if we don't use the 1st overall pick on a QB. This is going to be the best time we are set up to take the best QB on the board, unless Cleveland or San Fran somehow win less than us.

[Green Lightning]

Which teams are going deep into the playoffs with average QB'ing?

 

Baltimore or the Jets

[DanInUticaTampa]

Their Qbs aren't exactly playing average right now.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Here's what I said when referencing SB participants. You can joke all you want, but SB teams either had an outstanding QB or had an average one with a stellar defense and a running game.

 

This would work for me. Especially since we have a couple of fine running backs.

 

So being afraid of a bust should be mitigated by having a fine scouting department with a savvy GM who knows what they're doing.

 

Now we get to the heart of the matter. Do we have a fine scouting department and a savvy GM? (uncertain)

 

If you want to ask questions that can't be answered, fine. But this team will have one top pick that will be untradeable come April IF it's a QB driven league (it is) and a QB is available and worthy of the top pick (we don't know) then that person must be taken. For the sake of history, 8 of the last 10 #1 overall picks have been QB's. Think franchises don't know how important a QB is?

 

I can tell you that when faced with a massive rebuilding (Lions 09, Falcons 08, Colts 98, SD 04, NYG 04) teams will eschew OL and DL when a QB is available at the top of the draft. They fill in from that start.

 

No argument (from anyone) that the Bills are in a mess, because far too many of their recent high draft picks and signings haven't worked out.

No question that we the fans are no longer to be satisfied by mediocrity. We want a winner back.

 

I did ask a question that could be answered:

Can anyone provide examples of a team which sucked on both lines, and turned things around by drafting a star college QB into the mess,

expecting him to start and be the difference-maker? (I know bad teams often draft a QB, that's not the question).

 

The Lions undoubtedly drafted Stafford into a mess. So did the Rams with Bradford. The jury's still out on how that will work.

 

The Colts sucked in '97 and drafted their starting tackles Tarik Glenn (1st round) and Meadows (2nd round).

They had Faulk at RB, Harrison at WR and Dilger at TE, two pro-bowlers when they drafted Manning.

I don't think they count as "drafting a QB into a mess" or "filling that in from the start".

 

SD '04 was 12-4 under Brees. They drafted Manning, er, Rivers, but Brees remained at QB until -06 when he went to the Saints and helped turn them around.

They don't seem to fit your case 'cuz the QB they (essentially) drafted in '04 didn't come in and turn things around and replaced a good QB.

 

NYG '04 already had Pettigout, Diehl, and McKensie on the OL (they did move things around that year). So they had a pretty good OL when they (essentially) drafted Manning.

 

I may be totally off base, I can't think of a case where it's really been successful to draft a high-prospect QB #1 into a total cupboard-bare mess, and have it work out.

A QB is the highest-profile player - isn't it a question worth asking, how that works out to draft him #1 when ya got nothing else?

 

Jamarcus Russell and the Raiders in '07 - not so good. Alex Smith and the 49ers in '05 - mmmmmmm.

 

Maybe you're right, maybe drafting a QB #1 is the right thing to do, IDK. I personally would feel better with an OK QB, a solid line on both sides of the ball, and a stud LB.

[Lenigmusx]

"Alex, I'll have 'most recent average QB who took his team deep into the playoffs' for $400, please"

Bzzzzzzzt "Your answer please?"

"Who is Rex Grossman?"

 

Joking aside, I think that's missing the point of the article.

Not talking "deep into the playoffs"

Just talking "win, Baby". And most teams do, even with a so-so QB tossing the pigskin.

 

Moving back to the Bill's most recent HOF QB.

Kelly came to a Bills team which had a top-five offensive line, a top WR and a solid TE before he got here.

The D had a veteran leader NT, Bruce Smith and Darryl Talley.

 

1. Would Kelly have had the same storied career if he had come to the Bills in 1983, before those pieces were in place?

2. Can anyone provide examples of a team which sucked on both lines, and turned things around by drafting a star college QB into the mess?

Our O-line sucked in 1986 yes some of the players were there but they were terrible. I remember quite well. Before Levy the team was no better than it's 1985 predecessor.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Lenigmusx

[Wilson from Gamehendge]

Baltimore or the Jets

Yeah, Flacco and Sanchez are AVERAGE QB's!?!

 

 

That may be the stupidest thing I have read here today...and I even read that Jake Locker is gonna be an NFL Hall of Famer!

[Rayzer32]

HELLO!!!! Trent Dilfer won a freaking Superbowl. And Mark Sanchez was horrible last year and the Jets went to the AFC championship game.

[Sisyphean Bills]

This would work for me. Especially since we have a couple of fine running backs.

 

 

 

Now we get to the heart of the matter. Do we have a fine scouting department and a savvy GM? (uncertain)

 

 

 

No argument (from anyone) that the Bills are in a mess, because far too many of their recent high draft picks and signings haven't worked out.

No question that we the fans are no longer to be satisfied by mediocrity. We want a winner back.

 

I did ask a question that could be answered:

Can anyone provide examples of a team which sucked on both lines, and turned things around by drafting a star college QB into the mess,

expecting him to start and be the difference-maker? (I know bad teams often draft a QB, that's not the question).

 

The Lions undoubtedly drafted Stafford into a mess. So did the Rams with Bradford. The jury's still out on how that will work.

 

The Colts sucked in '97 and drafted their starting tackles Tarik Glenn (1st round) and Meadows (2nd round).

They had Faulk at RB, Harrison at WR and Dilger at TE, two pro-bowlers when they drafted Manning.

I don't think they count as "drafting a QB into a mess" or "filling that in from the start".

 

SD '04 was 12-4 under Brees. They drafted Manning, er, Rivers, but Brees remained at QB until -06 when he went to the Saints and helped turn them around.

They don't seem to fit your case 'cuz the QB they (essentially) drafted in '04 didn't come in and turn things around and replaced a good QB.

 

NYG '04 already had Pettigout, Diehl, and McKensie on the OL (they did move things around that year). So they had a pretty good OL when they (essentially) drafted Manning.

 

I may be totally off base, I can't think of a case where it's really been successful to draft a high-prospect QB #1 into a total cupboard-bare mess, and have it work out.

A QB is the highest-profile player - isn't it a question worth asking, how that works out to draft him #1 when ya got nothing else?

 

Jamarcus Russell and the Raiders in '07 - not so good. Alex Smith and the 49ers in '05 - mmmmmmm.

 

Maybe you're right, maybe drafting a QB #1 is the right thing to do, IDK. I personally would feel better with an OK QB, a solid line on both sides of the ball, and a stud LB.

It's a team game. Having a great QB all by himself isn't enough. He can't block for himself, he can't catch his own passes, he can't pound the rock in the 4th quarter, he isn't going to play special teams, and he isn't going to stop anyone on defense. The Chargers look like this formula a bit so far this year.

 

Arizona is probably a decent example of the reverse, where they have very good talent and a dismal QB situation (although Max Hall played well enough). Minnesota has struggled with Favre sucking so far this year.

 

The Panthers and Bills are good examples of expansion teams.

[Chilly]

HELLO!!!! Trent Dilfer won a freaking Superbowl. And Mark Sanchez was horrible last year and the Jets went to the AFC championship game.

 

Cause that's the norm, right?

[C.Biscuit97]

Yeah, Flacco and Sanchez are AVERAGE QB's!?!

 

 

That may be the stupidest thing I have read here today...and I even read that Jake Locker is gonna be an NFL Hall of Famer!

 

 

So I take it, you don't read your own posts?

 

They are both very average, though young, QBs who both benefit from being in great situations. A lot of QBs would be as successful if not more in Baltimore and New Jersey.

[Ramius]

This would work for me. Especially since we have a couple of fine running backs.

 

 

 

Now we get to the heart of the matter. Do we have a fine scouting department and a savvy GM? (uncertain)

 

 

 

No argument (from anyone) that the Bills are in a mess, because far too many of their recent high draft picks and signings haven't worked out.

No question that we the fans are no longer to be satisfied by mediocrity. We want a winner back.

 

I did ask a question that could be answered:

Can anyone provide examples of a team which sucked on both lines, and turned things around by drafting a star college QB into the mess,

expecting him to start and be the difference-maker? (I know bad teams often draft a QB, that's not the question).

 

The Lions undoubtedly drafted Stafford into a mess. So did the Rams with Bradford. The jury's still out on how that will work.

 

The Colts sucked in '97 and drafted their starting tackles Tarik Glenn (1st round) and Meadows (2nd round).

They had Faulk at RB, Harrison at WR and Dilger at TE, two pro-bowlers when they drafted Manning.

I don't think they count as "drafting a QB into a mess" or "filling that in from the start".

 

SD '04 was 12-4 under Brees. They drafted Manning, er, Rivers, but Brees remained at QB until -06 when he went to the Saints and helped turn them around.

They don't seem to fit your case 'cuz the QB they (essentially) drafted in '04 didn't come in and turn things around and replaced a good QB.

 

NYG '04 already had Pettigout, Diehl, and McKensie on the OL (they did move things around that year). So they had a pretty good OL when they (essentially) drafted Manning.

 

I may be totally off base, I can't think of a case where it's really been successful to draft a high-prospect QB #1 into a total cupboard-bare mess, and have it work out.

A QB is the highest-profile player - isn't it a question worth asking, how that works out to draft him #1 when ya got nothing else?

 

Jamarcus Russell and the Raiders in '07 - not so good. Alex Smith and the 49ers in '05 - mmmmmmm.

 

Maybe you're right, maybe drafting a QB #1 is the right thing to do, IDK. I personally would feel better with an OK QB, a solid line on both sides of the ball, and a stud LB.

 

If you pass up on a QB at number 1 overall, you may not be in position to pick a talent like that again. A good OT or defensive player may push the team back to the 5-7 win range, which usually puts out fo the reach of a potential star QB.

 

If you have a chance to take a franchise QB, you do it.

[RuntheDamnBall]

If you pass up on a QB at number 1 overall, you may not be in position to pick a talent like that again. A good OT or defensive player may push the team back to the 5-7 win range, which usually puts out fo the reach of a potential star QB.

 

If you have a chance to take a franchise QB, you do it.

True enough, Ramius, but if that chance yields a Ryan Leaf, it sets you back more than being in that 5-7 win range does, IMO.

 

As an aside, there was an interesting recent SI article about the Lions and Rams as teams that have been in that top 5 realm for awhile. They are paying Peyton Manning money to very unproven guys and being asked to do this on a yearly basis. It might work out with good drafting, but if it doesn't, being up at the top of the draft can be crippling. That's a good reason for the rookie wage scale to change with this next CBA.

[Ramius]

True enough, Ramius, but if that chance yields a Ryan Leaf, it sets you back more than being in that 5-7 win range does, IMO.

 

As an aside, there was an interesting recent SI article about the Lions and Rams as teams that have been in that top 5 realm for awhile. They are paying Peyton Manning money to very unproven guys and being asked to do this on a yearly basis. It might work out with good drafting, but if it doesn't, being up at the top of the draft can be crippling. That's a good reason for the rookie wage scale to change with this next CBA.

 

I read that article as well. It was a good one, and shows what a crazy situation those teams are in. You dont reach for a QB, but if one is there at the top, you need to take a chance on him.

 

Remember, there are Mike Williamses, Gerard Warren's, Courtney Brown's, etc at the top of the draft as well.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

True enough, Ramius, but if that chance yields a Ryan Leaf, it sets you back more than being in that 5-7 win range does, IMO.

 

As an aside, there was an interesting recent SI article about the Lions and Rams as teams that have been in that top 5 realm for awhile. They are paying Peyton Manning money to very unproven guys and being asked to do this on a yearly basis. It might work out with good drafting, but if it doesn't, being up at the top of the draft can be crippling. That's a good reason for the rookie wage scale to change with this next CBA.

 

You can't win if you don't have a horse in the race buddy!! Yeah, there is a chance that a sure fire franchise QB pick could yield a dud like Ryan Leaf, but if "the guy" is there you need to take a chance on him. Ultimately, it all comes down to our talent evaluators (scary prospect I know). If that franchise QB is not there, then you go with the best player at a position of need (i.e., 3-4 DE).

 

Andrew Luck or bust!!!

[RuntheDamnBall]

You can't win if you don't have a horse in the race buddy!! Yeah, there is a chance that a sure fire franchise QB pick could yield a dud like Ryan Leaf, but if "the guy" is there you need to take a chance on him. Ultimately, it all comes down to our talent evaluators (scary prospect I know). If that franchise QB is not there, then you go with the best player at a position of need (i.e., 3-4 DE).

 

Andrew Luck or bust!!!

Hey, I don't disagree.

 

But NFL talent evaluators across the board would have taken Ryan Leaf in the top ten, or Mike Williams in the top ten. No one would have been thought stupid for making that pick. In fact, if those picks were made in the latter half of the top ten, they would immediately have been judged masterful picks, great value selections.

 

It's more a question of knowing whether the guy really is "the guy." I would be vetting players with a fine-toothed comb. It's early, but if they end up with #1 or even a top-five selection, it should result in the most thorough scouting and interview process the Bills have EVER done. Period. This is going to be a crucial draft, even if it leads to another season with many losses.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

It's a team game. Having a great QB all by himself isn't enough. He can't block for himself, he can't catch his own passes, he can't pound the rock in the 4th quarter, he isn't going to play special teams, and he isn't going to stop anyone on defense. The Chargers look like this formula a bit so far this year.

 

Arizona is probably a decent example of the reverse, where they have very good talent and a dismal QB situation (although Max Hall played well enough). Minnesota has struggled with Favre sucking so far this year.

 

The Panthers and Bills are good examples of expansion teams.

 

+1

[ConradDobler]

 

 

 

Moving back to the Bill's most recent HOF QB.

Kelly came to a Bills team which had a top-five offensive line, (name them) a top WR (in 1986, who?) and a solid TE (again, in 1986 who?) before he got here.

The D had a veteran leader NT, Bruce Smith and Darryl Talley.

 

Yeah Smerlas was a veteran leader NT. Offsides!

 

1. Would Kelly have had the same storied career if he had come to the Bills in 1983, before those pieces were in place?

2. Can anyone provide examples of a team which sucked on both lines, and turned things around by drafting a star college QB into the mess?

 

You must have been born in 1982 or later.

Edited October 18, 2010 by ConradDobler