Spiller = Jackson's TD production for the whole year in 3 preseaso

[Kelly the Dog]

Except for home-run hitter breakaway TDs by RBs, there is no more overrated stat in the NFL than the rushing TD. The reverence for it is a product of fantasy football's popularity. Next thing you know, people will start saying that Barry Sanders wasn't the best RB since OJ (which he was). Basically, if you're near the goal line and the team hands it off to you, you've got as decent a shot as any RB to score if you're a good RB (as Jackson is). If they don't hand it off to you at the three or four yard line, you have no chance to score. Basically, the fantasy emphasis on RB TDs devalues the nice 12 yard run from your own 20 and instead hands out points for the 1 yard TD (eg, late career Marcus Allen, who was the beneficiary of a well designed KC offense). The Bills neither had many chances in the "low" red zone nor handed it off much to Jackson down there.

 

Having said this, it's obvious that Spiller has home run hitter talent.

Not sure I agree with that in whole. There are certainly guys with " a nose for the goal line". They are just good at it, the way some WR are seemingly able to shift into another gear right before the ball gets to them on a long pass. They are either very smart about when to time their jump at the one, or when to lower the boom. In yesterday's game, I don't think either Jackson or Marshawn score from the 1 yard line but Spiller does because of that burst.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that it can be a totally misleading stat for certain players who do score, and other who don't. But I think there are surely nose for the endzone runners and receivers who just have a feel and a knack or a determination that kicks in and they score a lot more than other players of equal talent. And I think your example of Marcus Allen both supports and debunks your argument. yes, his numbers were inflated because he had a bunch of short yardage TDs, but he was one of the best ever at it. And IMO equally great runners given all those same carries would not have reached the endzone as many times as he did.

[PDaDdy]

Freddy was never our TD guy. Notice how whenever we got into the red zone we would put Lynch in to grind out the yards. The only time he'd score was on long runs or if Marshawn was out. Beyond that this is the pre-season and he hasn't played one actual game yet. That said I do think Spiller will end up the better back but Jackson is still the man.

 

Did you ever notice how WRONG you were? PURE FICTION my man. Fred Jackson had 29 red zone touches to Marshawn's 19. Jackson also touched 237 touches to Lynch's 120. Almost exactly double the carries. Please don't spread untruths to try to back a point you can't make. The facts not only don't support your claim they directly refute it.

 

Well I guess that makes Marshawn the number one guy because Spiller isn't big enough to be grinding for yards. I don't even know why you brought up "If you are the #1 RB of the team" since there is no real #1. We have 3 great running backs who each fill in for each others faults.

 

We have 3 good RBs. As I said I think freddy is a good RB. He is a good teammate and loved by the other players, JUST LIKE Lynch is if you can get past his knuckle headed issues off the field.

 

#1 RB? Starting RB? The guy that gets the ball first? We know exactly what we are talking about. Fred Jackson's TD production for those titles are not good enough. Those two guys are a great combo. "The Thriller" so far looks truly special.

 

I know, I know. It's too early to tell. But looking at some of his college film and seeing a good deal of that translate to the NFL in just a few quarters of play is REALLY REALLY encouraging. How do you keep this guy on the bench?

 

I have a feeling we got the wrong guy though...

 

Jahvid Best will be just as good as Spiller...and he is faster.

 

Spiller is the faster of the 2 in my opinion. I questioned the times at the combine. He was unofficially clocked at 4.27 but his official time is 4.37? Something fishy there. Best is fast no doubt. Go to you tube and look up spiller. It's is almost comedic how fast this guy is against college opponents. He made some good NFL players look pretty silly too.

[Bills Fan888]

Did you ever notice how WRONG you were? PURE FICTION my man. Fred Jackson had 29 red zone touches to Marshawn's 19. Jackson also touched 237 touches to Lynch's 120. Almost exactly double the carries. Please don't spread untruths to try to back a point you can't make. The facts not only don't support your claim they directly refute it.

The red zone is more than just the first 5 yards. I'm just going off what I saw from last season and whenever we got within the 5 yard line I noticed Marshawn was put in when he was healthy. And those stats do at least partially back up what I was saying. Jackson had, like you said, almost exactly double the carries compared to only having 30 red zone touches to the 20 that Marshawn had showing that Marshawn had the ball in the red zone a lot compared to having half the touches Freddy had. Regardless, I'm just trying to argue that Freddy is a very talented back and that the TD stat doesn't determine the better back.

[PDaDdy]

Yay!!! Let's bash a good Bill to praise another!!!

 

Crazy thought: why can't we just be happy that we have the best trio of rbs in the league?

 

Whose bashing? I am giving people a little dose or realism. People are so quick to hate a guy with some character flaws that they will anoint his replacement the savior. Jackoson is a great story. By all accounts a great guy and team mate. The problem however is that he doesn't score TDs like a starter should. Period. That is a fact.

 

Except for home-run hitter breakaway TDs by RBs, there is no more overrated stat in the NFL than the rushing TD. The reverence for it is a product of fantasy football's popularity. Next thing you know, people will start saying that Barry Sanders wasn't the best RB since OJ (which he was). Basically, if you're near the goal line and the team hands it off to you, you've got as decent a shot as any RB to score if you're a good RB (as Jackson is). If they don't hand it off to you at the three or four yard line, you have no chance to score. Basically, the fantasy emphasis on RB TDs devalues the nice 12 yard run from your own 20 and instead hands out points for the 1 yard TD (eg, late career Marcus Allen, who was the beneficiary of a well designed KC offense). The Bills neither had many chances in the "low" red zone nor handed it off much to Jackson down there.

 

Having said this, it's obvious that Spiller has home run hitter talent.

 

 

LOL. He said rushing TDs are over rated. They are currently rated at 6 points. You know, the things that win games

Edited August 30, 2010 by PDaDdy

[Rockinon]

Sooo....all you Fred Jackson was the best RB on our team fans. CJ Spiller in just over a game and a half worth of football in preseason has already equaled Fred Jackson's production for a whole year. I love Freddy but he is not a franchise back. Gailey knew it. Kix knew it. And, now we know it too. He is a great change of pace try hard effective back but TDs score points! Even Marshawn was considerably better at it than Freddy.

 

That being said. I'm glad we have all 3 but how does Spiller go back to the bench at this point?

Oh, come on. Last year Fred Jackson was given all of the carries marching down the field, but whenever they got close to the to the endzone Lynch got the carries. Does anyone around here actually watch the freakin' games? Stats don't tell the whole story. And with this team, anyone with half a brain can see how stats should be thrown out the window entirely because of the ridiculous roller coaster ride of coaching changes last season. It's absolutely amazing this team won 6 games last year at all.

 

Take a look at the big picture for a change. Keying in on one little thing so you can promote one player over another is simply not right. These guys are teammates. When one guy is not in there, the next guy fills in. Stats are OK if that person is given all of the carries, but when the carries are divided in majorly varying degrees they mean nothing. Get with the program and start talking some real football.

 

And another thing, who says we can't get production from all of our running backs?

Edited August 30, 2010 by Rockinon

[PDaDdy]

The red zone is more than just the first 5 yards. I'm just going off what I saw from last season and whenever we got within the 5 yard line I noticed Marshawn was put in when he was healthy. And those stats do at least partially back up what I was saying. Jackson had, like you said, almost exactly double the carries compared to only having 30 red zone touches to the 20 that Marshawn had showing that Marshawn had the ball in the red zone a lot compared to having half the touches Freddy had. Regardless, I'm just trying to argue that Freddy is a very talented back and that the TD stat doesn't determine the better back.

 

Never said TDs alone did determine the better back. But good backs score them

 

You're trying to give the impression that Jackson is Warrick Dunn and Marshawn was Mike Alstott. Simply not true. I watched every game last year and I saw nothing to support your stat-less claim. Why do I even remember? Because I used to scream at the TV that they SHOULD put in Lynch because he gets even tougher yards than Fred.

Edited August 30, 2010 by PDaDdy

[Drew026]

I have a feeling we got the wrong guy though...

 

Jahvid Best will be just as good as Spiller...and he is faster.

 

 

I hope that's sarcasm

[Bills Fan888]

 

I know, I know. It's too early to tell. But looking at some of his college film and seeing a good deal of that translate to the NFL in just a few quarters of play is REALLY REALLY encouraging. How do you keep this guy on the bench?

 

What do you mean, "how do you keep this guy on the bench?" Do you think he's not gonna be playing at all? The Bills will be rotating backs in and out. Are you under the impression that Freddy and Marshawn are gonna be the only one's playing?

[PDaDdy]

What do you mean, "how do you keep this guy on the bench?" Do you think he's not gonna be playing at all? The Bills will be rotating backs in and out. Are you under the impression that Freddy and Marshawn are gonna be the only one's playing?

 

Wow. I would think the pretty obvious answer to that is no. I meant how do we not make him the starter? We can't over use him but so far he seems like he might give us the best chance for success. Let Fred be the REALLY good change of pace guy he should be. Let Marshawn be the tough yard, 4th down, goal line, bruise em, salt the game away in the 4th quarter RB. That would seem to play to their strengths best.

Edited August 30, 2010 by PDaDdy

[BuffaloBill]

Sooo....all you Fred Jackson was the best RB on our team fans. CJ Spiller in just over a game and a half worth of football in preseason has already equaled Fred Jackson's production for a whole year. I love Freddy but he is not a franchise back. Gailey knew it. Kix knew it. And, now we know it too. He is a great change of pace try hard effective back but TDs score points! Even Marshawn was considerably better at it than Freddy.

 

That being said. I'm glad we have all 3 but how does Spiller go back to the bench at this point?

Why compare the ineptness of Jauron's offense to this year? Not to mention slam Jackson on the process? stupid

 

Why not appreciate the fact we have both on the roster?

[Bills Fan888]

Wow. I would think the pretty obvious answer to that is no. I meant how do we not make him the starter? We can't over use him but so far he seems like he might give us the best chance for success. Let Fred be the REALLY good change of pace guy he should be. Let Marshawn be the tough yard, 4th down, goal line, bruise em, salt the game away in the 4th quarter RB. That would seem to play to their strengths best.

I guess I just don't really see the point of who "starts" or not since it's all a matter of who takes the first snap. As stated in another thread, Marshawn works the best as the "starter" since he can wear down the defense in the beginning but I honestly don't really see much of a difference since they'll just be swapped all the time. I just hate it when people freak out about Spiller being "benched" since there's no way he'll be sitting on the bench the whole game. Anyway go Bills.

[PDaDdy]

Oh, come on. Last year Fred Jackson was given all of the carries marching down the field, but whenever they got close to the to the endzone Lynch got the carries. Does anyone around here actually watch the freakin' games? Stats don't tell the whole story. And with this team, anyone with half a brain can see how stats should be thrown out the window entirely because of the ridiculous roller coaster ride of coaching changes last season. It's absolutely amazing this team won 6 games last year at all.

 

Take a look at the big picture for a change. Keying in on one little thing so you can promote one player over another is simply not right. These guys are teammates. When one guy is not in there, the next guy fills in. Stats are OK if that person is given all of the carries, but when the carries are divided in majorly varying degrees they mean nothing. Get with the program and start talking some real football.

 

And another thing, who says we can't get production from all of our running backs?

 

WRONG. Already provided stats to the contrary. Fred had 29 red zone touches to Marshawn's 19. As another astute poster said. How good can your starter be if he gets taken out in the red zone? Fred is not a 5'9" 195lb scat back. He is big enough to be very effective around the goal line. The problem is he isn't productive enough. If Lynch did as you allege, which I don't agree with by the way, get more carries at the goal line the coaches obviously thought he was better at scoring. Either way your argument holds no weight.

 

Why compare the ineptness of Jauron's offense to this year? Not to mention slam Jackson on the process? stupid

 

Why not appreciate the fact we have both on the roster?

 

Again your not getting it. Look at what I said not what you think I said. I like Freddy. Let's get that straight. Got it now? Lets move on. Fred, however, doesn't score TDs like a starting RB should. I seem to recall that Lynch in his 2 1000 yd seasons played for some coach named...who was it again?...OH...that's right ...Jauron. Better TD production as the starter in the same crappy situation.

 

I know....I know..you hate Lynch. Problem is he is a better scorer and made more yards after contact. Don't believe me? Here is the link to the stats.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/football/ffl/story?page=nfldk2k10advancedstats

Edited August 30, 2010 by PDaDdy

[Rockinon]

WRONG. Already provided stats to the contrary. Fred had 29 red zone touches to Marshawn's 19. As another astute poster said. How good can your starter be if he gets taken out in the red zone? Fred is not a 5'9" 195lb scat back. He is big enough to be very effective around the goal line. The problem is he isn't productive enough. If Lynch did as you allege, which I don't agree with by the way, get more carries at the goal line the coaches obviously thought he was better at scoring. Either way your argument holds no weight.

 

 

 

Again your not getting it. Look at what I said not what you think I said. I like Freddy. Let's get that straight. Got it now? Lets move on. Fred, however, doesn't score TDs like a starting RB should. I seem to recall that Lynch in his 2 1000 yd seasons played for some coach named...who was it again?...OH...that's right ...Jauron. Better TD production as the starter in the same crappy situation.

 

I know....I know..you hate Lynch. Problem is he is a better scorer and made more yards after contact. Don't believe me? Here is the link to the stats.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/football/ffl/story?page=nfldk2k10advancedstats

Not wrong. Watch the game. When ever the Bills were within 5 yards of the endzone, Fred Jackson never got a sniff at the endzone. It was always Lynch. I was completely beside myself watching this over and over last year. Using stats to attempt to paint a picture and prove how smart you are doesn't win ball games. That's probably what Harvard grad head coaches do. Try talking real football and hears a novelty for you; look at the big picture instead of picking a meaningless stat to make your case.

[todd]

I like the way spiller runs, but let's not get ahead of ourselves, sparky.

 

The key word is preseason.

 

Sooo....all you Fred Jackson was the best RB on our team fans. CJ Spiller in just over a game and a half worth of football in preseason has already equaled Fred Jackson's production for a whole year. I love Freddy but he is not a franchise back. Gailey knew it. Kix knew it. And, now we know it too. He is a great change of pace try hard effective back but TDs score points! Even Marshawn was considerably better at it than Freddy.

 

That being said. I'm glad we have all 3 but how does Spiller go back to the bench at this point?

[bowery4]

With ML an FJ you get players with different qualities but they are both good. I like both so I have no giant preference towards one back or another at this point. They are role players. We use them differently when they are healthy and missed one or the other when they were out because they didn't fill the other ones role as well.

 

ML has the ability to have guys on his back and carry them into the EZ, he was used that way last year and the year before. So yeah he has more TDs than Fred. He is good at it and that has been his role. He lacks great field vision and tends to dance when he is backed up in space.

 

Freddy is great at hitting a hole hard and quick he has good vision and can catch balls out of the backfield better. So, that was his role. He did in fact tend to get plugged up when the space wasn't there as the field was shorter and he doesn't have a knack for carrying people on his back as he runs. If there are stats to back that up really doesn't matter, that was how they were used and we all witnessed it.

 

This is a funny debate, yeah with Spiller we are going to use them all differently and have even more options. Watch how Baltimore uses it's 3 headed monster, they all have the roles they play based on the strength of their game. Mcghee is the red zone guy for them just like ML has been for us.

 

If you don't see it and just want to argue the point that is your prerogative but I don't see your point as that is not what we all saw for ourselves.

I kind of hate that you think using stats is going to prove your point. It is an overrated tactic on this board and in football in general.

 

Statistics are like women; mirrors of purest virtue and truth, or like whores to use as one pleases. ~Theodor Billroth

Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say. ~William W. Watt

Then there is the man who drowned crossing a stream with an average depth of six inches. ~W.I.E. Gates

[bills7834]

WRONG. Already provided stats to the contrary. Fred had 29 red zone touches to Marshawn's 19. As another astute poster said. How good can your starter be if he gets taken out in the red zone? Fred is not a 5'9" 195lb scat back. He is big enough to be very effective around the goal line. The problem is he isn't productive enough. If Lynch did as you allege, which I don't agree with by the way, get more carries at the goal line the coaches obviously thought he was better at scoring. Either way your argument holds no weight.

 

 

 

Again your not getting it. Look at what I said not what you think I said. I like Freddy. Let's get that straight. Got it now? Lets move on. Fred, however, doesn't score TDs like a starting RB should. I seem to recall that Lynch in his 2 1000 yd seasons played for some coach named...who was it again?...OH...that's right ...Jauron. Better TD production as the starter in the same crappy situation.

 

I know....I know..you hate Lynch. Problem is he is a better scorer and made more yards after contact. Don't believe me? Here is the link to the stats.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/football/ffl/story?page=nfldk2k10advancedstats

 

It's late Sunday night and I'm too lazy to look up the stats. But I'm sure if you looked up 3rd/4th down and 1 Jackson has much better stats then Lynch. I would get angry that a bruising back like him would dance instead of hitting the hole.

 

Here is what I think we have with our 3 backs in no particular order:

 

Jackson: Smart, versatile back that never seems to make mistakes. Who did they give the ball to in the wildcat formation? I can't remember one mental mistake he has made in his time here with the Bills.

 

Lynch: One of the toughest backs in the league to tackle when he gets a head of steam. Very good back also. Has a nose for the endzone. Pisses me off in short yardage situations.

 

Spiller: It's early with just a few quarters of preseason but barring an injury I would bet the farm on this. He is a home run, versatile back that will lead the team in negative yard carries and then take it to the house. He is a game changer on a regular basis. The other two backs can carry the team on their back on a consistent basis, but this kid will change the game. When they announce the game coming up this week it will be Spiller and the Bills. I have very little doubt of that.

Edited August 30, 2010 by bills7834

[CarolinaBill]

I have a feeling we got the wrong guy though...

 

Jahvid Best will be just as good as Spiller...and he is faster.

Jahvid Best has concussion issues, and he's not faster than spiller

[DIE HARD 1967]

Buffalo is showcasing Spiller.

 

What did you expect?

Edited August 30, 2010 by DIE HARD 1967

[ganesh]

fred Jackson in my opinion is a better rb than lynch, but to each his own, but for guys to root against an underdog and instead a thuggish punk makes me scratch my head. Jackson has been every bit as productive as Marthug, is a great guy, is a division 2 running back that made it, wasn't the 12th pick in the draft, doesn't run over people and leave the seen of an accident, doesn't have unregistered handguns, doesn't threaten to hold out and ask for a trade, steal peoples' 20 dollar bills. I realize it was a run on sentence but the above are the reasons Fred Jackson is one of my favorites on this team, and Marthug in my opinion is a piece of s$$$!

 

I thought the discussion was about football, not the character of the players involved. All I said was that in the two seasons, Jackson has had difficulty in the Red zone. Lynch has the knack to put the ball in the endzone more often than Jackson. We need all the three players to do well.

[Mr. WEO]

Never said TDs alone did determine the better back. But good backs score them

 

You're trying to give the impression that Jackson is Warrick Dunn and Marshawn was Mike Alstott. Simply not true. I watched every game last year and I saw nothing to support your stat-less claim. Why do I even remember? Because I used to scream at the TV that they SHOULD put in Lynch because he gets even tougher yards than Fred.

This is ALL YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING---for months! You are the "TDs are all that matters, re: RBs" Guy.

 

Wow.