Stadium on the Waterfront

[PromoTheRobot]

What is the obsession with a new stadium? Seven games a year are played at the Ralph and I think it's one of the best places to see a game. Who cares if it's not new and fancy? It's also not a billion dollars. The problem with people in this country is that they assume bigger/newer = better. Gillette Stadium isn't half as great to watch a game as Foxboro was. Same with Citi Field and Shea Stadium. Relax, people.

Uhhh...the old Foxboro stadium was an overgrown high school schitthole stadium. Gillette is really a million times better.

 

PTR

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

The NFL wants a team in WNY

 

 

linkage please.

 

waterfront stadium? ugh... that thing would sit there vacant for 350 days of the year. let it sit vacant on the Orchard Park / Hamburg border.

[weehawk]

I'm pulling for them all the way. This all started with me stating that I think they are the future of football in Buffalo. I'm a fan. Go Bulls!

 

 

 

 

5-7 is not 1-11. UB Football has hopefully left those days behind. They are rebuilding this season so I don't know what to expect but at least they hired a coach with a strong pedigree in Quinn.

 

PTR

[Leonidas]

Uhhh...the old Foxboro stadium was an overgrown high school schitthole stadium. Gillette is really a million times better.

 

PTR

 

Sorry, but you're wrong here. There were no bad views at Foxboro. Trying to watch a game or a concert from the upper level at Gillette is horrible. Maybe not enough amenities but I'd trade that in for lower prices and better views any day.

[The Senator]

Uhhh...the old Foxboro stadium was an overgrown high school schitthole stadium. Gillette is really a million times better.

 

PTR

Actually, PTR, it wasn't all that bad - save for the unpaved, crater-filled parking lots. In fact, the same firm (HNTB) designed both RWS (nee Rich) and Foxboro (nee Schaefer) stadia - the difference being that Schaefer was a bare-bones structure that seemed very much like a 65% completed Rich Stadium...

 

"In traditional Billy Sullivan fashion, the owner built the stadium at a bare minimum of cost, skimping and cutting corners in every phase of design. Sullivan was reportedly irate when the initial estimate of $6.9 million was overrun by $200,000 (or just less than the cost of a bottled water at Yankee Stadium)."

 

Link - Schaefer Stadium and The Great Flush

 

(Older fans will recall a similar 'flushing' problem in the early days of Rich Stadium - not with overflowing toilets and troughs, but with the water pressure practically disappearing in the town of OP at half-time )

[PromoTheRobot]

Actually, PTR, it wasn't all that bad - save for the unpaved, crater-filled parking lots. In fact, the same firm (HNTB) designed both RWS (nee Rich) and Foxboro (nee Schaefer) stadia - the difference being that Schaefer was a bare-bones structure that seemed very much like a 65% completed Rich Stadium...

 

"In traditional Billy Sullivan fashion, the owner built the stadium at a bare minimum of cost, skimping and cutting corners in every phase of design. Sullivan was reportedly irate when the initial estimate of $6.9 million was overrun by $200,000 (or just less than the cost of a bottled water at Yankee Stadium)."

 

Link - Schaefer Stadium and The Great Flush

 

(Older fans will recall a similar 'flushing' problem in the early days of Rich Stadium - not with overflowing toilets and troughs, but with the water pressure practically disappearing in the town of OP at half-time )

If by "not that bad" you mean you could see the field, then I'll agree. But by any other measure it was an overgrown high school stadium.

 

PTR

[Leonidas]

If by "not that bad" you mean you could see the field, then I'll agree. But by any other measure it was an overgrown high school stadium.

 

What other ways, exactly? What's more important than the views? Who gives a **** about concessions and bathroom facilities??

[Haven Moses]

Lackawanna.

 

Build a complex like Arizona with shops, offices, etc all around it on the old steelplant site. Figure a way to build some offices into the stadium so that conference rooms can double as skyboxes.

[PromoTheRobot]

What other ways, exactly? What's more important than the views? Who gives a **** about concessions and bathroom facilities??

Right. At Foxboro you had the choice of pissing in your empty beer cup or over the rear of the upper deck.

 

PTR

[nostyle126]

Football stadiums do NOT belong in a downtown, let alone along valuable waterfront property. You only get EIGHT marquee events there every year (the NFL team's eight home games) and a few other events. The rest of the year the stadium is sitting there USELESS and EMPTY, devoid of street life and surrounded by SEAS of SURFACE LOTS.

 

The stadium is fine where it is.

[Red]

It amazes me that, actually it don't w/ our politicians, our stadium is not on the waterfront! I truly do not understand why this was never a priority. If anyone has ever been to Chicago, Cleveland or any other damn lakeside city they would appreciate the frustration here. It is nauseating that there are historic battle ships sitting in a harbor w/ a delapitated grainmill next to them falling w/ time. Not to mention the ten other mills scattered and tainting that waterfront. Hey but some idiots in Hamburg are worried bout the wind mills. We have a gorgeous waterfront w/ nature reserve and a damn thruway along it. The old Freezer Queen plant is rotting along w/ (I believe its vacant) the cement plant, the old Fr Baker's, and many other rotting concrete eyesores. I understand the concept of cost and the damn state goverment's fiscal irresponsibility and not to mention the only reason the Bills are profitable is due to the fact that Ralph owes nothing on the stadium now but come on. They're screaming to develop the waterfront well hell.............why wouldn't you use the heart of this area to build off of?? My Sunday morning coffee frustration!

 

 

I completely agree with this. The City has extra money now since Bass Pro played the typical immature high school beeyatch and teased Buffalo to death only to play hard to get and quasi-interested when push came to shove, that we could finally turn downtown into something great.

 

Last time I checked, they are called the Buffalo Bills, and not the Orchard Park Bills.

 

I love the idea of having the Bills right where those brown fields are directly South of downtown. There is enough space to bulldoze it all for parking, a practice house, and a stadium.

 

I just love this idea! It couldn't cost that much to demolish that whole section. Get us a newer stadium, more centralized to business in WNY and Ontario, more accessible, and how about the flow of traffic and business into Buffalo before and after games? Traffic could be backed up, you're hungry, so why not go to a Buffalo pub or restaurant after a game instead of sitting in an Orchard Park parking lot freezing your rump off while waiting for your turn to get out of the lot?

 

People could head out to the waterfront to eat, do something, shop...whatever. Keeping the money in Buffalo. Success begets success.

 

Urban sprawl hardly is the answer to healing an area. Condensing services, entertainment, transportation, games, etc into one hub is exactly what WNY needs. Not 20 small districts all vying for the same buck.

 

Bring the Bills to the Buffalo waterfront!

 

Then we can try to figure out how to get UB there too, as an Amherst campus is just plain assinine.

[Leonidas]

Right. At Foxboro you had the choice of pissing in your empty beer cup or over the rear of the upper deck.

 

Jesus, are you a woman? Who cares what the bathrooms were like?? It's not like it's all upper-tier porcelain now...

[Red]

Football stadiums do NOT belong in a downtown, let alone along valuable waterfront property. You only get EIGHT marquee events there every year (the NFL team's eight home games) and a few other events. The rest of the year the stadium is sitting there USELESS and EMPTY, devoid of street life and surrounded by SEAS of SURFACE LOTS.

 

The stadium is fine where it is.

 

And the Bills couldn't attract and market major outdoor music concerts during the summer months?

[Red]

The NFL wants a team in WNY

 

 

linkage please.

 

waterfront stadium? ugh... that thing would sit there vacant for 350 days of the year. let it sit vacant on the Orchard Park / Hamburg border.

 

Again, why?

 

Do you mean that a major musical event or concert could not work in Buffalo, in the summer, outdoors?

 

You're telling me that a Bon Jovi, The Who, Metallica, Black Eyed Peas, Dave Matthews, and on and on and on would see not value in selling out perhaps a 60,000 seat stadium (since a portion would probably be blocked off) over a 15,000 seat HSBC arena?

 

Move the Bills to their parent City.

 

One of the problems with WNY is that it has too much sprawl. UB should not be in Amherst. UB should have one mega campus, on the waterfront (as was originally approved and planned, BTW). WNY needs to consolidate its benefits in order to maximize its return on its product. Building UB on the waterfront would immediately place thousands of college students with money to spend in the City. They have to eat, want to shop, and will need transportation to get there. Restaurants, retail shops, entertainment...all would blossom.

 

Same thing with the Bills. One of the biggest complaints about going downtown is that there is nothing to do once you get there. Well, going to downtown to see a Bills game could not become a big event for the City. People will want to eat. I'd rather eat at Duff's or Pearl Street than sit in a freezing cold while my buddy burns my burger. Not to take away from tailgating, but you would now have a choice, and that may help to bring more families to football. Restaurants would offer pre- and post game specials. Transportation would be provided by the City at a reasonable price. People may want to then spend more of their money either in the City or at the Fieldhouse, keeping more money where it belongs: in Buffalo.

 

How long do you want to sit and stare and the nothing that is South of Buffalo? How many decades do want it to continue? I can tell you now, nothing is coming in there anytime soon, bro. And the region can't keep playing the Democrat line and waiting for Government hand-outs, either. The City, and more importantly the region needs to start standing up for itself and acting in its own best interest.

 

Keeping the BUFFALO Bills in Orchard Park accomplishes neither.

[jo39416]

Football stadiums do NOT belong in a downtown, let alone along valuable waterfront property. You only get EIGHT marquee events there every year (the NFL team's eight home games) and a few other events. The rest of the year the stadium is sitting there USELESS and EMPTY, devoid of street life and surrounded by SEAS of SURFACE LOTS.

 

The stadium is fine where it is.

 

IMHO not totally accurate. First, its generally 10 events when you include preseason (Granted who knows what’s going to happen with the Toronto situation.) Second, a sliding dome would allow the option of holding more events, such as the NCAA tournament.

 

Your point remains that a large portion of the year it remains empty, which is true. But you forget about corporate events, conferences, etc. that could potentially be held at the new stadium. I live in Charlotte, which has a downtown stadium, and the firm I work for holds our annual meeting at the stadium every year. Additionally, the Lions stadium actually has office space overlooking the field (would not be a huge fan of this.)

 

The surface lot problem should not be a problem due to all the surface lots that exist for the working population that parks downtown every day. Since NFL games are played on Sunday, you generally don’t have to compete for parking space.

 

Finally, NFL stadiums tend to liven up parts the areas they go into. Take for example the Charlotte stadium. Within 4 years of the stadium going in real estate prices increased nearly 25% due to people moving into the area who wanted to walk to the NFL games. New restaurants, bars and local amenities soon followed.

[Bills(70)]

Typical negative, defeatist attitude that permeates out of Buffalo....For all of you who are convinced that The Bills are outta there in the near future, you may want have a bit more hope. Iknow you might just be bracing for the worst, but the one thing people seem to always overlook is this. The "Buffalo Bills" brand is a proven commodity...simply put -It sells consistantly, over and over again. It has loyal customers who stay with this product. The NFL knows this. The NFL also knows that other certain brands do not perform as well....Like Jacksonville, The LA Raiders, The LA Rams an dso on. Just because you put a team somewhere doesnt mean it is guaranteed success. I work in pro sports. The NFL wants a team in WNY as it has proven effective for 50 + years. Quit being so damn pessimistic about the team leaving all the time. You'd be surprised to know how unlikley it is that the Bills would become a team identified for re-location. The NFL is greedy. They might make more money moving The Bills, BUT there is zero guarantee. There IS, however a guarantee that they will in WNY...Stay positive!

Ok, took me awhile to get back to this thread, but, I've read through it. Since you responded to my abbreviated response, let me respond to your optimism, which, is part of what is needed here in Buffalo by the way.

 

Ok, I'll start with this. My company and our staff have looked at Buffalo on the infrastructure side, energy, commercial and civil engineering. Here is where you are going to run into your first problems.

1. New York Politics, I won't go into detail, but I've experienced what is expected at the state and local levels, they are some hefty hurdles.

2. Location, Location, Location. Buffalo is located close enough to New York City and Toronto as well as surrounding other regional cities such as Cleveland, Pittsburg..etc..etc. that is should be able to take advantage of Niagara Falls as a world wide destination, but there in lay the problem. Buffalo is not Niagara Falls and the city of Niagara Falls really has no incentive nor desire to be tied to Buffalo. It would much rather garner its own identity.

3. Anchor Industries, Buffalo's are gone for the most part and nothing has come in to take their place.

4. Quality of Life as a draw for industry to return, not with New York State taxes and specifically the Western New York Region, this is actually a killer for the area as a sales pitch. For example, Niagara County is the highest taxed county in the nation per capita, thats not good.

 

And the list can go on, but the point is, there is a reason young people leave this area, the elderly and those few that have the salaries via the remaining (albiet, small) job market are left to pay an ever increasing and expanding taxation problem that is beyond an "ISSUE", its flat out in crises mode for this region.

Development is near stagnant as is economic growth, but has been for a number of decades now.

 

These are not negative thoughts, they are the reality of the region and merely a handful, the list will get alot longer than what I have mentioned. Oh sure, there is innovative ways to spur growth and lower taxes, but we won't see the benefits in our lifetime, so why should those of us who remain see any incentive to fight a rigid system that feeds off of us and does so without so much as a thought in the world as to the future of the region?

 

A waterfront Stadium? Not in my lifetime, and my 2 kids have already left the area.

The Bills won't be far behind. It will be a business decision and as a businessman, its a smart move for the new owners of the team. I hold no ill will when that decision comes.

Change is inevitable, its not so much "if" we embrace it, but how. This area will in all reality be no different without the Bills here, it will continue its decline until it reaches its own "Rock Bottom".

 

Like I said, these are negativities, these are realities.

[PromoTheRobot]

When "Government" is your largest employer, you're in trouble.

 

PTR

[trolls_r_us]

I cannot even imagine how depressing it would be around here if the Bills left....

 

As it is, we are struggling to get by here job-wise but we have family/friends around and we're both big Buffalo sports fans

 

But as dumb as it might sound to some, if the Bills left, I think we would too. The collective regional pity party would be too much to take.

[ExiledInIllinois]

At least Chicago gets it right.

 

That is because from the get-go, Daniel Burnham's plan was to separate industry from the green spaces. Putting a stadium in BFLO's waterfront would be like putting a stadium in Gary (Buffington harbor)...

 

Anyway... Where are they going to put it in BFLO?... You have interstate (I-190) hogging up the whole area. I know this is going to be hard to believe, but BFLO really doesn't have any MUCH ACCESSIBLE waterfront... That is truly sad!!

 

Chicago is still geographically relevant... What made it from the start is still in play today.

[ExiledInIllinois]

When "Government" is your largest employer, you're in trouble.

 

PTR

 

When one of the biggest owner's of land in the city is the not-for-profit, tax exempt, Catholic Church... Your in bigger trouble!

[Bills(70)]

Chicago gets it right only in terms of its location, its the true gate way to the west. It is a city that took advantage, and rightfully so, of its geological location in conjuction with the great mining and grain industries of the Central/Northern Midwest.

Companies such as Agrium and 3M ship vast amounts of resources through the area.

 

Buffalo no longer has that. You want to know what the Buffalo/Niagara region has? It has a great energy infrastructure, including but not limited to feedstock capacities for some green energy and a transmission infrastructure that hits 5 different ISO markets directly.

 

It has Niagara Falls itself, 12 million visitors annually pre-economic downturn, 8 million post-economic downturn.

It has vast Limestone and Dolimite reserves. It has access to not only 2 of the 5 great lakes, but also a vast waterway connecting the Hudson River.

It has the 4th ranked recreational hunting and fishing area's in the country (according to the JAN. 2009 Field & Stream list).

Some of the NorthEasts vast hardwood forest reserves and natural bueaty. The Marcellus Shale Natural Gas Reserves.

A 1.5 hour drive to Canada's largest city.

Some of the most spectacular winter's without the -40 degree F. temps the nation knows (ever been to Neb. or Wyo. in Jan.)

 

This area actually has a great deal to offer in Dairy production, apple and grape production and so on.

 

No, the reason this area has failed to capatilize is really simple. FAILURE OF VISION AND FAILURE TO PROPERLY IMPLEMENT THAT VISION SIMPLY DUE TO POLITICS.

 

It really is that simple.

 

PromoTheRobot is dead on correct, government is destroying this region, plain and simply put.

Pension plans, hired government workers, massive spending to secure voting blocks, it is the exact opposite of the fore fathers who conceived this nation were attempting to give us........the future generations. And do you know the really sad thing is about all of this.................

 

WE HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT OURSELVES, AS CITIZENS FOR ALLOWING THIS TRAVISTY NOT ONLY TO EXIST, BUT TO ALLOW TO KEEP ON EXISTING.

 

Sad, very sad.

But once again, I digress, the Bills will leave inside of 10 years, take that to the bank.

Its a business, and I would fully understand when they do relocate. It may indeed be a sad day for WNY, but look at the other side of this, it will be a happy day for some population center who is on the up swing.

 

CHANGE IS INEVITABLE, Buffalo just happens to be a place where we will be alive as we watch it in its death throws from upper mid size to lower mid size city.

[bills1960]

Typical negative, defeatist attitude that permeates out of Buffalo....For all of you who are convinced that The Bills are outta there in the near future, you may want have a bit more hope. Iknow you might just be bracing for the worst, but the one thing people seem to always overlook is this. The "Buffalo Bills" brand is a proven commodity...simply put -It sells consistantly, over and over again. It has loyal customers who stay with this product. The NFL knows this. The NFL also knows that other certain brands do not perform as well....Like Jacksonville, The LA Raiders, The LA Rams an dso on. Just because you put a team somewhere doesnt mean it is guaranteed success. I work in pro sports. The NFL wants a team in WNY as it has proven effective for 50 + years. Quit being so damn pessimistic about the team leaving all the time. You'd be surprised to know how unlikley it is that the Bills would become a team identified for re-location. The NFL is greedy. They might make more money moving The Bills, BUT there is zero guarantee. There IS, however a guarantee that they will in WNY...Stay positive!

Well said, very well said.

[CardinalScotts]

The water front stadium idea isn't new. Back in the day the water front was mainly industry.

The redevelopment of the water front has only taken shape in the last 35 years or so as an idea into what has been implemented so far.

 

But, you hang that idea up. As sad a day as it will be I think you and many other fans need to come to the realization that the Bills will not be in Buffalo beyond at the most, a decade.

 

This area continues to shrink in population, there are much larger markets out there. The NFL hay day in Buffalo is over I'm afraid. The writing is on the wall and no politician, no local businessman is going to change this.

 

So, to sum it up, why even consider a water front stadium when the team won't be here to play in it anyways.

 

Not sure where you work or live but the Bills aren't going anywhere this has been discussed

[bills1960]

The Bills are a money maker every year. We sold a team record amount of season tickets last year after three straight 7-9 seasons and finished tenth in average tickets sold per game. I don't think a team like the Jaguars, Panthers or Raiders could do that. The Bills have made money from the day they were created and that is all that matters to the NFL. As for the stadium debate, i think a new stadium would be great for the city and the team's image but not necessarily on the waterfront.

[joemac]

Chicago gets it right only in terms of its location, its the true gate way to the west. It is a city that took advantage, and rightfully so, of its geological location in conjuction with the great mining and grain industries of the Central/Northern Midwest.

Companies such as Agrium and 3M ship vast amounts of resources through the area.

 

Buffalo no longer has that. You want to know what the Buffalo/Niagara region has? It has a great energy infrastructure, including but not limited to feedstock capacities for some green energy and a transmission infrastructure that hits 5 different ISO markets directly.

 

It has Niagara Falls itself, 12 million visitors annually pre-economic downturn, 8 million post-economic downturn.

It has vast Limestone and Dolimite reserves. It has access to not only 2 of the 5 great lakes, but also a vast waterway connecting the Hudson River.

It has the 4th ranked recreational hunting and fishing area's in the country (according to the JAN. 2009 Field & Stream list).

Some of the NorthEasts vast hardwood forest reserves and natural bueaty. The Marcellus Shale Natural Gas Reserves.

A 1.5 hour drive to Canada's largest city.

Some of the most spectacular winter's without the -40 degree F. temps the nation knows (ever been to Neb. or Wyo. in Jan.)

 

This area actually has a great deal to offer in Dairy production, apple and grape production and so on.

 

No, the reason this area has failed to capatilize is really simple. FAILURE OF VISION AND FAILURE TO PROPERLY IMPLEMENT THAT VISION SIMPLY DUE TO POLITICS.

 

It really is that simple.

 

PromoTheRobot is dead on correct, government is destroying this region, plain and simply put.

Pension plans, hired government workers, massive spending to secure voting blocks, it is the exact opposite of the fore fathers who conceived this nation were attempting to give us........the future generations. And do you know the really sad thing is about all of this.................

 

WE HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT OURSELVES, AS CITIZENS FOR ALLOWING THIS TRAVISTY NOT ONLY TO EXIST, BUT TO ALLOW TO KEEP ON EXISTING.

 

Sad, very sad.

But once again, I digress, the Bills will leave inside of 10 years, take that to the bank.

Its a business, and I would fully understand when they do relocate. It may indeed be a sad day for WNY, but look at the other side of this, it will be a happy day for some population center who is on the up swing.

 

CHANGE IS INEVITABLE, Buffalo just happens to be a place where we will be alive as we watch it in its death throws from upper mid size to lower mid size city.

If Government was solely responsible for destroying the region, Canada and Toronto would be right there with Buffalo. High taxes, government run health care etc, but when you look at Toronto and the surrounding region they seem to be doing fine and they even seem to like their health care.

 

I have lived around the country and the biggest problem with all of Western NY, is the lack of vision for the future. The heavy industry has dried up and instead of looking for new businesses, Buffalo seems to sit around waiting for a savior to come in. The ones who have, have been snake oil salesman, such as John Rigas.

 

Set aside the negativity and reluctance to do anything, find your strength and move forward. I live in Rochester and watched the fast ferry fiasco and decided it was time to get up and say something, I did and my advice is to get out and go to some community meetings, go to whatever political party suits fancy, get involved. Get involved if you don't like what is happening, it will be frustrating as hell but it is the only way to make a real difference.

[Hplarrm]

Interesting to me to see the comparison between Buffalo and Chicago. I grew up in Chicago spending my first 18 years there before escaping to an Ivy League school where I met my lovely wife and after an intervening decade in DC where I did some fun work we came back to her hometown of Buffalo.

 

Though it may be much to the dismay of the doomsayers on the TSW this turned out to be unequivocally the correct move to make. Like every place else I have ever visited (which is quite a few places since my trade involved a lot of travel and I actually have been to as I remember specific incidents in 46 of the 50 states). The general rule I find is that happy people are happy just about anywhere and sad people are sad just about anywhere.

 

There generally is a glass half empty or glass half full anywhere and folks commentaries seem to say a lot more about their judgments which they make about whether to view things optimistically or pessimistically. While blind optimism or blind pessimism are equally blind. There really is a middle ground of optimistic realism which tends to hold the folks I know and like being with in good stead.

 

All that being said, while Buffalo and Chicago have much in common (both call it pop and not soda, the Great Lakes, city with big shoulders and ethnic feel and division were quite familiar to me when I moved to Buffalo) but there also are real differences.

 

To me the major economic difference seemed o be based on decisions made by the city fathers at the turn of the last century. Buffalo made an economic decision to sell off its water front to private businesses who used the water resource to build large steel mills, auto plants, industries and other manufacturing facilities. There was a lot of money to be made and Buffaloanians made it.

 

Chicago on the other hand actually held most of its waterfront in public hands. There obviously are nodes of development (and an area known as the Magnificent Mile houses waterfront hotels, stores, etc) on the waterfront, but for the most part it is public lands with public access in the form of beaches.

 

Buffalos made out like a bandit for a while, but as it happens plants age and close down and today the Buffalo waterfront is for the most part left with the shells of closed factories, toxic wastes which make the old steel land uninhabitable and the legacy of robber barons who have long ago taken the money to various villas and the jobs to cheaper sources of labor.

 

Chicago on the other hand though it held its waterfront for public access is no economic backwater. Industry and retail are merely backed off of the waterfront by a block or a few hundred yards and the area prospered.

 

Personally, I am quite happy that Bass Pro ain't coming because they actually had negotiated what appears to me what likely would have been an illegal gift of public dollars to a private concern for the $35 million Bass Pro had apparently gotten the City to give up.

 

What should the City of Buffalo and the greater region do?

 

Well, to me it starts with a commitment of the principle of public money for public things.

 

The City of Buffalo should invest the millions of our collective tax # (the $35 million gift to Bass Pro is an indicator that even our poor town there are $ around) and this should be done as it is the way to build business.

 

Businesses come where there are customers to sell things to.

 

Industries relocate in places where their workers are happy to live and work. If Buffalo can make life a good place to live then people will want to live there and businesses will follow.

 

Perhaps the typical American would not want to live in a scary urban place. Regrettable but fine. Like Toronto, Buffalo should open its town to immigrants. They may be funny colors coming from asia, south america, the mideast or wherever, but all of their money is green.

 

Immigrants built this town once before and my guess is that they could build it again. If AZ wants to arrest and harass them we should welcome them.

 

The business rule is buy low and sell high. As depressed as Buffalo and even more so Niagara Falls are it does not get any lower than this economically. We at the bottom of the barrel can compete economically in terms of low price (even any taxation amount which can be higher here is actually chump change compared to the cheaper priced housing advantage.

 

Good riddance to Bass Pro and use public dollars to build more nice parks. Like leeches good businesses will pop up in areas near enough to attractive public spaces to sell stuff to users and visitors of these public spaces.

 

 

 

Chicago gets it right only in terms of its location, its the true gate way to the west. It is a city that took advantage, and rightfully so, of its geological location in conjuction with the great mining and grain industries of the Central/Northern Midwest.

Companies such as Agrium and 3M ship vast amounts of resources through the area.

 

Buffalo no longer has that. You want to know what the Buffalo/Niagara region has? It has a great energy infrastructure, including but not limited to feedstock capacities for some green energy and a transmission infrastructure that hits 5 different ISO markets directly.

 

It has Niagara Falls itself, 12 million visitors annually pre-economic downturn, 8 million post-economic downturn.

It has vast Limestone and Dolimite reserves. It has access to not only 2 of the 5 great lakes, but also a vast waterway connecting the Hudson River.

It has the 4th ranked recreational hunting and fishing area's in the country (according to the JAN. 2009 Field & Stream list).

Some of the NorthEasts vast hardwood forest reserves and natural bueaty. The Marcellus Shale Natural Gas Reserves.

A 1.5 hour drive to Canada's largest city.

Some of the most spectacular winter's without the -40 degree F. temps the nation knows (ever been to Neb. or Wyo. in Jan.)

 

This area actually has a great deal to offer in Dairy production, apple and grape production and so on.

 

No, the reason this area has failed to capatilize is really simple. FAILURE OF VISION AND FAILURE TO PROPERLY IMPLEMENT THAT VISION SIMPLY DUE TO POLITICS.

 

It really is that simple.

 

PromoTheRobot is dead on correct, government is destroying this region, plain and simply put.

Pension plans, hired government workers, massive spending to secure voting blocks, it is the exact opposite of the fore fathers who conceived this nation were attempting to give us........the future generations. And do you know the really sad thing is about all of this.................

 

WE HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT OURSELVES, AS CITIZENS FOR ALLOWING THIS TRAVISTY NOT ONLY TO EXIST, BUT TO ALLOW TO KEEP ON EXISTING.

 

Sad, very sad.

But once again, I digress, the Bills will leave inside of 10 years, take that to the bank.

Its a business, and I would fully understand when they do relocate. It may indeed be a sad day for WNY, but look at the other side of this, it will be a happy day for some population center who is on the up swing.

 

CHANGE IS INEVITABLE, Buffalo just happens to be a place where we will be alive as we watch it in its death throws from upper mid size to lower mid size city.

[purple haze]

Typical negative, defeatist attitude that permeates out of Buffalo....For all of you who are convinced that The Bills are outta there in the near future, you may want have a bit more hope. Iknow you might just be bracing for the worst, but the one thing people seem to always overlook is this. The "Buffalo Bills" brand is a proven commodity...simply put -It sells consistantly, over and over again. It has loyal customers who stay with this product. The NFL knows this. The NFL also knows that other certain brands do not perform as well....Like Jacksonville, The LA Raiders, The LA Rams an dso on. Just because you put a team somewhere doesnt mean it is guaranteed success. I work in pro sports. The NFL wants a team in WNY as it has proven effective for 50 + years. Quit being so damn pessimistic about the team leaving all the time. You'd be surprised to know how unlikley it is that the Bills would become a team identified for re-location. The NFL is greedy. They might make more money moving The Bills, BUT there is zero guarantee. There IS, however a guarantee that they will in WNY...Stay positive!

 

Buffalo's biggest problem. Pessimism. Not without good cause based on corrupt to incompetent politicians etc. But it's on a whole new level now. For all of the negative city development hiccups the Bills could have been moved years ago. They aren't going anywhere.

[nick in* england]

Concerts, soccer, lacrosse, local college and even high school sports. It's about showing the rest of the country your best attribute....the waterfront. A properly placed stadium makes the city look better. Look at Pittsburgh!

EXACTLY - look at Pittsburgh. It's a thing of beauty!

[nick in* england]

A waterfront stadium would do wonders for Buffalo. If ever a city needed to restart is beating heart is was Buffalo.

 

I'm an out of towner (obviously) and I am totally besotted with the City of Buffalo - the boonies, not so much. Buffalo has a wealth of fantastic architecture, magnificent buildings that just have no life to them anymore. That's mainly because the spread of the city has dragged commerce away from the centre like too many American cities. Downtown feels hollow and soulless... And it shouldn't.

 

You get a tiny bit of THAT feeling when you pull off the freeway and see Dunn Tire Park - like you get in Pittsburgh. You could get LOTS of THAT feeling with a waterfront stadium. Buffalo's skyline is already fantastic - a stadium added to it would make it really striking...

 

A waterfront Stadium complex with associated retail and accommodation would transform downtown. You'd have your Hockey Arena, Baseball stadium and Football Stadium all in a couple of blocks - you'd attract more and more people downtown, breating life and colour into a town that is dying unneccessarily. You already have a metro system to connect a vibrant student population in the north to downtown. The airport easily serves downtown. You have a good rail service that stops right in the heart of downtown.

 

We should be celebrating our beautiful city, not cyring about the old steel industry days and dwindling population.

[Griswold]

Politicians.

 

Unions.

 

Pessimism.

 

Taxes.

 

That about sums up the problems.

[K Gun Special]

Politicians.

 

Unions.

 

Pessimism.

 

Taxes.

 

That about sums up the problems.

 

 

 

empty talking points.

[Bills(70)]

A waterfront stadium would do wonders for Buffalo. If ever a city needed to restart is beating heart is was Buffalo.

 

I'm an out of towner (obviously) and I am totally besotted with the City of Buffalo - the boonies, not so much. Buffalo has a wealth of fantastic architecture, magnificent buildings that just have no life to them anymore. That's mainly because the spread of the city has dragged commerce away from the centre like too many American cities. Downtown feels hollow and soulless... And it shouldn't.

 

You get a tiny bit of THAT feeling when you pull off the freeway and see Dunn Tire Park - like you get in Pittsburgh. You could get LOTS of THAT feeling with a waterfront stadium. Buffalo's skyline is already fantastic - a stadium added to it would make it really striking...

 

A waterfront Stadium complex with associated retail and accommodation would transform downtown. You'd have your Hockey Arena, Baseball stadium and Football Stadium all in a couple of blocks - you'd attract more and more people downtown, breating life and colour into a town that is dying unneccessarily. You already have a metro system to connect a vibrant student population in the north to downtown. The airport easily serves downtown. You have a good rail service that stops right in the heart of downtown.

 

We should be celebrating our beautiful city, not cyring about the old steel industry days and dwindling population.

I agree with you.

And I agree with the individual who posted on Chicago and Buffalo and its chosen paths by the (I call them regional fathers, not city, because i reality, their decisions affect a 6 county area) leaders of the region at the turn of the century, and then those that held these positions in the late 60's early 70's.

And I also agree that its not to late, it can be changed, but not by public money, not in these economic times.

A new waterfront stadium would in fact, do wonders for the downtown area, but so to would commercial buildings and more importantly, a manufacturing base and a real drive to entice small business back to the area.

But the most important thing I have seen posted here, was the person who stated that driving population back to the area is the key, that drives commerce in the area.

 

A whole lot of great input and passion from western New Yorkers, and I love to see it.

My company, Eninthal, LLC, is a renewable energy company and I, like many other businessmen in the area, have vision, unfortunately, its who you know and blow that makes the real difference here.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Interesting to me to see the comparison between Buffalo and Chicago. I grew up in Chicago spending my first 18 years there before escaping to an Ivy League school where I met my lovely wife and after an intervening decade in DC where I did some fun work we came back to her hometown of Buffalo.

 

Though it may be much to the dismay of the doomsayers on the TSW this turned out to be unequivocally the correct move to make. Like every place else I have ever visited (which is quite a few places since my trade involved a lot of travel and I actually have been to as I remember specific incidents in 46 of the 50 states). The general rule I find is that happy people are happy just about anywhere and sad people are sad just about anywhere.

 

There generally is a glass half empty or glass half full anywhere and folks commentaries seem to say a lot more about their judgments which they make about whether to view things optimistically or pessimistically. While blind optimism or blind pessimism are equally blind. There really is a middle ground of optimistic realism which tends to hold the folks I know and like being with in good stead.

 

All that being said, while Buffalo and Chicago have much in common (both call it pop and not soda, the Great Lakes, city with big shoulders and ethnic feel and division were quite familiar to me when I moved to Buffalo) but there also are real differences.

 

To me the major economic difference seemed o be based on decisions made by the city fathers at the turn of the last century. Buffalo made an economic decision to sell off its water front to private businesses who used the water resource to build large steel mills, auto plants, industries and other manufacturing facilities. There was a lot of money to be made and Buffaloanians made it.

 

Chicago on the other hand actually held most of its waterfront in public hands. There obviously are nodes of development (and an area known as the Magnificent Mile houses waterfront hotels, stores, etc) on the waterfront, but for the most part it is public lands with public access in the form of beaches.

 

Buffalos made out like a bandit for a while, but as it happens plants age and close down and today the Buffalo waterfront is for the most part left with the shells of closed factories, toxic wastes which make the old steel land uninhabitable and the legacy of robber barons who have long ago taken the money to various villas and the jobs to cheaper sources of labor.

 

Chicago on the other hand though it held its waterfront for public access is no economic backwater. Industry and retail are merely backed off of the waterfront by a block or a few hundred yards and the area prospered.

 

Personally, I am quite happy that Bass Pro ain't coming because they actually had negotiated what appears to me what likely would have been an illegal gift of public dollars to a private concern for the $35 million Bass Pro had apparently gotten the City to give up.

 

What should the City of Buffalo and the greater region do?

 

Well, to me it starts with a commitment of the principle of public money for public things.

 

The City of Buffalo should invest the millions of our collective tax # (the $35 million gift to Bass Pro is an indicator that even our poor town there are $ around) and this should be done as it is the way to build business.

 

Businesses come where there are customers to sell things to.

 

Industries relocate in places where their workers are happy to live and work. If Buffalo can make life a good place to live then people will want to live there and businesses will follow.

 

Perhaps the typical American would not want to live in a scary urban place. Regrettable but fine. Like Toronto, Buffalo should open its town to immigrants. They may be funny colors coming from asia, south america, the mideast or wherever, but all of their money is green.

 

Immigrants built this town once before and my guess is that they could build it again. If AZ wants to arrest and harass them we should welcome them.

 

The business rule is buy low and sell high. As depressed as Buffalo and even more so Niagara Falls are it does not get any lower than this economically. We at the bottom of the barrel can compete economically in terms of low price (even any taxation amount which can be higher here is actually chump change compared to the cheaper priced housing advantage.

 

Good riddance to Bass Pro and use public dollars to build more nice parks. Like leeches good businesses will pop up in areas near enough to attractive public spaces to sell stuff to users and visitors of these public spaces.

 

Explain your new handle name.

 

To sum it up plain and simple... What put CHI in play at the start is still in play today. BFLO didn't fair too well, they have been made geographically irrelevant (demise of the Erie Canal and the building of the Seaway)... Onto the Seaway, you see it happening all around the Great Lakes, it just took time. What killed BFLO opened TOR to the world. Chicago still has it's back door open (and very cost effectively) to the world's waterborne commerce (the canals).

 

Again.. It is all about location, location, location.

 

Name one major city that has been made as geographically irrelevant as BFLO and I can debunk that argument. Just maybe the other AMERICAN Great Lakes cities, but not as worse as BFLO. BFLO is a dead end, and was never a base of anything... Its economy was always controlled by outside sources based at distant HQ's.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Hplarrm... What I meant at first is... You are Pyrite Gal, (what was that handle during the Mularky/Williams era) Yvel Vram, etc.. etc...

 

??

[zow2]

If Buffalo ever did build a waterfront stadium, they would have to spend the gazillions of dollars for a retractable dome. You need that stadium to host more than 9 football games in the cold months.

Also, location is a problem. They can't build a stadium in the midst of ghetto neighborhoods (sorry to offend anyone) or ramshackle grain mills. They would have to built an entertainment district around it that would invite people to walk around before and after hours...to dine, go clubbing, shop, museums etc... Baltimore has two nice urban stadiums just by their inner harbor. They did a great job. I suppose the revitalization of the Erie Canal is a good start for B-Lo but where's the land over there?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

We should be celebrating our beautiful city, not cyring about the old steel industry days and dwindling population.

 

I'm sure there must be an analogue there in Britain. Liverpool, maybe?

[nostyle126]

And the Bills couldn't attract and market major outdoor music concerts during the summer months?

Give them 10 concerts. We're now up to, say 20 events a year. There are 365 days in a year. That leaves 345 days of NOTHING GOING ON at a MASSIVE stadium surrounded by SURFACE LOTS. Stadiums are out of place when built in the urban core. They are suburban in nature.

 

I also think you guys underestimate how expensive it would be to build a new stadium in general, let alone in the brownfields that were recommended. Those are potentially toxic sites that would require very extensive remediation before the land can be used.

 

$$$

[nostyle126]

IMHO not totally accurate. First, its generally 10 events when you include preseason (Granted who knows what’s going to happen with the Toronto situation.) Second, a sliding dome would allow the option of holding more events, such as the NCAA tournament.

 

Your point remains that a large portion of the year it remains empty, which is true. But you forget about corporate events, conferences, etc. that could potentially be held at the new stadium. I live in Charlotte, which has a downtown stadium, and the firm I work for holds our annual meeting at the stadium every year. Additionally, the Lions stadium actually has office space overlooking the field (would not be a huge fan of this.)

 

The surface lot problem should not be a problem due to all the surface lots that exist for the working population that parks downtown every day. Since NFL games are played on Sunday, you generally don’t have to compete for parking space.

 

Finally, NFL stadiums tend to liven up parts the areas they go into. Take for example the Charlotte stadium. Within 4 years of the stadium going in real estate prices increased nearly 25% due to people moving into the area who wanted to walk to the NFL games. New restaurants, bars and local amenities soon followed.

You live in Charlotte. So do I. So go take a look at Third Ward. The whole area around Panther's Stadium is a DEAD ZONE. There is NOTHINGNESS for many city blocks in all directions. You need to walk 5 blocks north to reach development...3 blocks east. and NONE of those developments sprouted from the stadium. They were built to be near the CBD (such as the Wachovia Cultural Campus), not because of the "hustle and bustle" created by the stadium.

 

For those of you that don't live in Charlotte, Google map it. The area around the stadium is DEAD LAND. That would be our waterfont if we did the same thing in Buffalo. Enjoy.

[tennesseeboy]

The stadium might have been viable if the UB Amherst campus had also been built there. The land around the stadium would have been occupied by a very large university, with saturday college games and sunday pro games. The biggest mistake was made back in the late 60's with the decision to go to the Amherst site for the campus. It effectively doomed the City of Buffalo downtown. Maybe the worst mistake Buffalo ever made...well, after trading LaMonica.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I'm sure there must be an analogue there in Britain. Liverpool, maybe?

 

Liverpool's waterfront is open to the world... BFLO's is a 6 month (and that is being nice and stretching it!) waterfront that is on a dead-end. BFLO is and old "break-in-bulk" point that has become irrelevant. Geograhically, given the size of the city, a city absolutely does not belong in that location today. I hate to sound so doom and gloom, but even its physical, natural elements that made it a jewel location has abandoned it. Even PITT is more geographically blessed. Name one big town that has been geographically abandoned as bad as BFLO?

 

Back to the waterfront... It is really only useable from mid-May to mid-September. How do they throttle such a big city down to a simple summer vacation destination? It has too many issues physically (brown fields).

 

Again.. Sorry to be so doom and gloom... Who wants to make a soft right down the lake or a hard left after going up the lake. BFLO passed the torch to TOR when the Seaway was opened, everything else is just scapegoating.

 

Don't get me wrong... I still love the area and would do anything to bring it up to some sort of present dignity... I just don't see how!