Reasonable and Civil Discussion?

[Bad Lieutenant]

Oops, look who showed up!..asking us another retarded question.

 

Yes, fine analogy there. Too bad it's not even close. The last Tea Party people I actually paid attention to were black....but they must be Uncle Toms right tool? Yes, they are racists, and therefore hate themselves.

 

Nah, they can't have rational concerns about serious economic/foreign policy mistakes by Obama....because...they're black, and black people don't have their own thoughts, their thoughts are dictated by Bad Lieutenant. This is because, as we all know:

1. black people can't think for themselves, therefore

2. they need white liberals to do it for them, since

3. white liberals aren't: racist

 

It's good to see that you're alive and ticking and those socialists haven't terminated you yet. So indulge us- what exactly are you doing anything to resist Obamacare?

 

Agreed. And, this is also why we should resist, violently if necessary, all attempts to impose said cadre upon us, this right being specifically guaranteed to us by the founding principles/documents of our country.

 

Look I am in the first group of people they have to kill in order gain/keep their power: people that can build things from scratch without any help from the government or inheritance. My very existence proves their ideology to be the BS that it is, because, according to them, I don't exist. I do, so they have to get rid of me. I look at resisting them as self-defense, and so should every other small business owner, or independent contractor, or VC company founder, or inventor that wants to benefit from his/her own work.

[DC Tom]

This thread is the purest form of stupidity I have ever seen.

 

Wait...you mean that limiting discussions of civil discourse to teabaggers and birthers isn't smart?

 

Who'd'a thunk it?

[OCinBuffalo]

It's good to see that you're alive and ticking and those socialists haven't terminated you yet. So indulge us- what exactly are you doing anything to resist Obamacare?

Hehe....more than you can possibly comprehend. You'll forgive me if I don't explain further. I fear my time will be wasted explaining it to you. Feel free to "test" me though ...that's worked out so well for others of your kind here. We had so much fun with wawrow and RI, might as well continue with the rest of the retard parade.

 

And, it's nice to see that you still have that hook, planted firmly in your lip. Hysterical actually. You might want to go get that checked out. Now that you are getting "free" health care courtesy of your neighbors, you might as well take advantage....of us. After all, what use is self respect and personal achievement when you can just vote yourself "equal" to others?

[murra]

Hehe....more than you can possibly comprehend. You'll forgive me if I don't explain further. I fear my time will be wasted explaining it to you. Feel free to "test" me though ...that's worked out so well for others of your kind here. We had so much fun with wawrow and RI, might as well continue with the rest of the retard parade.

 

And, it's nice to see that you still have that hook, planted firmly in your lip. Hysterical actually. You might want to go get that checked out. Now that you are getting "free" health care courtesy of your neighbors, you might as well take advantage....of us. After all, what use is self respect and personal achievement when you can just vote yourself "equal" to others?

 

Yeah, but self respect and personal achievement lost. You might as well be speaking Mayan. Pretty soon those strong values will vanish, and be just another topic in history class.

[Alaska Darin]

Yeah, Yeah, everything you don't understand is "Stupid." Oops there goes the recess bell, time for all you 4th graders to get back to class.

So now it's because I don't understand it?

And you and RK being on the same wavelength says less about which one of you?

Nice attempt at spin. Nancy Pelosi would be proud.

OBTW You see the new Air Farce Uni's? Can you say Bus Drivers? Flying Bus Drivers?

Haven't seen them and don't care. Are they as bad as the new Navy Smurf BDUs?

Weren't you the clown who just complained about me using the same saying over and over?

Pot, Kettle, Black? Nah, not you! It's different when you do it!

Nope. Liberalism (you) is tired and always has been. Reality (me) never will be.

[RkFast]

Wait...you mean that limiting discussions of civil discourse to teabaggers and birthers isn't smart?

 

Who'd'a thunk it?

 

 

How dare those astroturfing, fraud, racist, teabagging paranoid angry nut bag whackos break down the rules of decorum and act like this?

[Magox]

Incivility from all walks of life.

 

 

Those attending the conference got a reminder of that when they walked into the gathering. Across the street were demonstrators carrying vile messages on signs: "God Hates Jews." "You Will Eat Your Babies." Others carried an Israeli flag defaced with a swastika. The liberal Code Pink group marched around the building hollering about "apartheid" and carrying a banner saying "Stop Israel War Crimes."

 

AIPAC convention

[BillsNYC]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/22...-dem-lawmakers/

 

Hmm....no proof of anything being said.

 

Something smelled fishy when this came out that day, Twitter practically exploded about the racist comments and the media was covering this as a major story instantly...although there was no proof of any of this, and when Pelosi and the others walked through the same crowd the next day there were no similar incidents.

 

Could it have been a Dem who came into the crowd and yelled an obscenity?

[BillsNYC]

Reading comprehension not your strong point?

 

Start a thread about that, you might be surprised where I stand.

 

TMCM (SS/SW) USN Ret.

 

huh?

[Delete This Account]

I fear my time will be wasted explaining it to you. Feel free to "test" me though ...that's worked out so well for others of your kind here. We had so much fun with wawrow and RI, might as well continue with the rest of the retard parade.

no, i think our time has been wasted with this post. really, you play the retard card. et tu, brutal?

 

jw

[3rdnlng]

no, i think our time has been wasted with this post. really, you play the retard card. et tu, brutal?

 

jw

 

John:

 

Brutal is seeing your good sports posts and articles overshadowed by your tequila induced liberal dumbass posts at 4:00 am.

 

Brutus

[IDBillzFan]

John:

 

Brutal is seeing your good sports posts and articles overshadowed by your tequila induced liberal dumbass posts at 4:00 am.

 

Brutus

Now that's just damn funny.

[Fan in San Diego]

Funny...the internet if flying with video

showing them making the walk they claim was filled with racial insults, and yet no one seems to hear any of the 15 claimed insults. How odd.

 

But the Huffington Post says so, so it must be true.

 

Lemming.

 

You know its funny, I saw on my local news a video clip of the spitting incident , the Barney Frank incident and John Lewis but I can't find those video clips anywhere! Conspiracy? Somebody deep sixed those clips.

[Magox]

You know its funny, I saw on my local news a video clip of the spitting incident , the Barney Frank incident and John Lewis but I can't find those video clips anywhere! Conspiracy? Somebody deep sixed those clips.

That's because John Lewis was lying. He has a history of being a race baiter.

 

And to your second point "conspiracy"?

 

Yup, the media is covering up a racism story.

[Delete This Account]

John:

 

Brutal is seeing your good sports posts and articles overshadowed by your tequila induced liberal dumbass posts at 4:00 am.

 

Brutus

i consider your post libelous as i do not drink tequila (often), and especially not in the wee hours of the morning. take that back, good sir!

 

jw

[3rdnlng]

i consider your post libelous as i do not drink tequila (often), and especially not in the wee hours of the morning. take that back, good sir!

 

jw

 

Uh oh, don't want to get involved with litigation here. Libation maybe. I guess I should of replaced tequila with Boone's Farm Apple-Cherry wine but I didn't want to spill one of your innermost secrets.

[DC Tom]

Uh oh, don't want to get involved with litigation here. Libation maybe. I guess I should of replaced tequila with Boone's Farm Apple-Cherry wine but I didn't want to spill one of your innermost secrets.

 

He probably drinks wine coolers.

[IDBillzFan]

He probably drinks wine coolers.

I would have guessed Appletinis.

[3rdnlng]

I would have guessed Appletinis.

 

Really, It's a Cosmopolitan. He enjoys them while watching Sex and The City reruns.

[Booster4324]

He probably drinks wine coolers.

 

I would have guessed Appletinis.

 

Really, It's a Cosmopolitan. He enjoys them while watching Sex and The City reruns.

 

While everyone may bicker and disagree over political philosophies, some attacks are just plain evil. Isn’t there a man law involved here or something?

[DC Tom]

While everyone may bicker and disagree over political philosophies, some attacks are just plain evil. Isn’t there a man law involved here or something?

 

Go suck a Zima.

[Booster4324]

Go suck a Zima.

 

Tom's drink of choice.

[Delete This Account]

I would have guessed Appletinis.

righto.

for people who seem to hang on my every apparent pink liberal word, you folks certainly miss several key points in regards to numerous mentions to my drinks of choice.

1. Mr. Jameson.

2. Sir Wisers

3. When neither on hand, a fine Wild Turkey shall do.

 

appletini my unshaved behind.

 

jw

[3rdnlng]

righto.

for people who seem to hang on my every apparent pink liberal word, you folks certainly miss several key points in regards to numerous mentions to my drinks of choice.

1. Mr. Jameson.

2. Sir Wisers

3. When neither on hand, a fine Wild Turkey shall do.

 

appletini my unshaved behind.

jw

 

TMI

[Delete This Account]

John:

 

Brutal is seeing your good sports posts and articles overshadowed by your tequila induced liberal dumbass posts at 4:00 am.

 

Brutus

Having put very little thought into this, there's a few things that bug me about your comment, aside from the dumbass reference, because I've never called you names, or judged your opinion or called you a right-wingnut or a glenn beck butt-beaming bumpkin, though I guess I could, because it's apparently pretty cheap on this dark end of the board to issue counterfeit baloney remarks, and have the ribald chorus chime in with monkey applause.

 

So good for you. You're a star in a dimwit sky.

 

The thing that ticks me off about this is that you seem to think that my sports posts are good, and that somehow I should conform to some sellout subjective vision you might have of some goose-stepping sacrilege dogmatic dipweed, or someone incapable of providing insight and reflection, or simply incapable of expressing of what I might think without some kind of pelosi script.

 

What you might think of me and whatever your expecations are, well, I hate to tell you they're as foolish and ill-founded as Karl Marx attending a tea party, I guess.

 

Who the f are you to judge who I am? And if it satisfies your simplistic desires that I'm either for or against something you're for or against, then let that be the thin proof that justifies your life's existence, and allows you to proceed with your morning in America suburban cul de sac reality. Then fine. I'm a liberal dumbass, if that's as simplistic as your world might be.

 

Hell, I might even be drunk, too.

 

And la billz has yet to come up with any reasonable answer to how I've managed to get under his or Her skin, except to post small missives that amount to wet farts and skidmarks. But that's far too easy a target, and I will admit to my digressions.

 

Of course, this will be interpreted as something beyond what it is -- one of my 4 a.m. drunken rants, perhaps, -- so I'll let you guess what it all means because Lord knows I don't know, except that it's mine alone.

 

jw

[Magox]

-- one of my 4 a.m. drunken rants, perhaps, -- so I'll let you guess what it all means because Lord knows I don't know, except that it's mine alone.

 

jw

Not 4 a.m, 3:29 a.m silly

[3rdnlng]

Having put very little thought into this, there's a few things that bug me about your comment, aside from the dumbass reference, because I've never called you names, or judged your opinion or called you a right-wingnut or a glenn beck butt-beaming bumpkin, though I guess I could, because it's apparently pretty cheap on this dark end of the board to issue counterfeit baloney remarks, and have the ribald chorus chime in with monkey applause.

 

So good for you. You're a star in a dimwit sky.

 

The thing that ticks me off about this is that you seem to think that my sports posts are good, and that somehow I should conform to some sellout subjective vision you might have of some goose-stepping sacrilege dogmatic dipweed, or someone incapable of providing insight and reflection, or simply incapable of expressing of what I might think without some kind of pelosi script.

 

What you might think of me and whatever your expecations are, well, I hate to tell you they're as foolish and ill-founded as Karl Marx attending a tea party, I guess.

 

Who the f are you to judge who I am? And if it satisfies your simplistic desires that I'm either for or against something you're for or against, then let that be the thin proof that justifies your life's existence, and allows you to proceed with your morning in America suburban cul de sac reality. Then fine. I'm a liberal dumbass, if that's as simplistic as your world might be.

 

Hell, I might even be drunk, too.

 

And la billz has yet to come up with any reasonable answer to how I've managed to get under his or Her skin, except to post small missives that amount to wet farts and skidmarks. But that's far too easy a target, and I will admit to my digressions.

 

Of course, this will be interpreted as something beyond what it is -- one of my 4 a.m. drunken rants, perhaps, -- so I'll let you guess what it all means because Lord knows I don't know, except that it's mine alone.

 

jw

 

 

John:

 

Thanks for your kind words. I guess I think that maybe I come close to pretty much understanding and comprehending the jist of what you are attempting to communicate via your colorful and descriptive prose. I tried, but I'm unworthy. Thanks for the entertainment.

[Fan in San Diego]

Having put very little thought into this, there's a few things that bug me about your comment, aside from the dumbass reference, because I've never called you names, or judged your opinion or called you a right-wingnut or a glenn beck butt-beaming bumpkin, though I guess I could, because it's apparently pretty cheap on this dark end of the board to issue counterfeit baloney remarks, and have the ribald chorus chime in with monkey applause.

 

So good for you. You're a star in a dimwit sky.

 

The thing that ticks me off about this is that you seem to think that my sports posts are good, and that somehow I should conform to some sellout subjective vision you might have of some goose-stepping sacrilege dogmatic dipweed, or someone incapable of providing insight and reflection, or simply incapable of expressing of what I might think without some kind of pelosi script.

 

What you might think of me and whatever your expecations are, well, I hate to tell you they're as foolish and ill-founded as Karl Marx attending a tea party, I guess.

 

Who the f are you to judge who I am? And if it satisfies your simplistic desires that I'm either for or against something you're for or against, then let that be the thin proof that justifies your life's existence, and allows you to proceed with your morning in America suburban cul de sac reality. Then fine. I'm a liberal dumbass, if that's as simplistic as your world might be.

 

Hell, I might even be drunk, too.

 

And la billz has yet to come up with any reasonable answer to how I've managed to get under his or Her skin, except to post small missives that amount to wet farts and skidmarks. But that's far too easy a target, and I will admit to my digressions.

 

Of course, this will be interpreted as something beyond what it is -- one of my 4 a.m. drunken rants, perhaps, -- so I'll let you guess what it all means because Lord knows I don't know, except that it's mine alone.

 

jw

 

Hi John

 

Good stuff, I especially like the 'ribald chorus chime in with monkey applause'.

You can't let these denizens of the dark get under your skin. It's their form of sick and twisted fun.

[DC Tom]

Having put very little thought into this, there's a few things that bug me about your comment, aside from the dumbass reference, because I've never called you names, or judged your opinion or called you a right-wingnut or a glenn beck butt-beaming bumpkin, though I guess I could, because it's apparently pretty cheap on this dark end of the board to issue counterfeit baloney remarks, and have the ribald chorus chime in with monkey applause.

 

So good for you. You're a star in a dimwit sky.

 

The thing that ticks me off about this is that you seem to think that my sports posts are good, and that somehow I should conform to some sellout subjective vision you might have of some goose-stepping sacrilege dogmatic dipweed, or someone incapable of providing insight and reflection, or simply incapable of expressing of what I might think without some kind of pelosi script.

 

What you might think of me and whatever your expecations are, well, I hate to tell you they're as foolish and ill-founded as Karl Marx attending a tea party, I guess.

 

Who the f are you to judge who I am? And if it satisfies your simplistic desires that I'm either for or against something you're for or against, then let that be the thin proof that justifies your life's existence, and allows you to proceed with your morning in America suburban cul de sac reality. Then fine. I'm a liberal dumbass, if that's as simplistic as your world might be.

 

Hell, I might even be drunk, too.

 

And la billz has yet to come up with any reasonable answer to how I've managed to get under his or Her skin, except to post small missives that amount to wet farts and skidmarks. But that's far too easy a target, and I will admit to my digressions.

 

Of course, this will be interpreted as something beyond what it is -- one of my 4 a.m. drunken rants, perhaps, -- so I'll let you guess what it all means because Lord knows I don't know, except that it's mine alone.

 

jw

 

This brings to mind a quote I read once...paraphrasing: "Nobody does revenge like a writer".

 

Nice work.

[Delete This Account]

Not 4 a.m, 3:29 a.m silly

 

early deadline, i guess.

 

 

John:

 

Thanks for your kind words. I guess I think that maybe I come close to pretty much understanding and comprehending the jist of what you are attempting to communicate via your colorful and descriptive prose. I tried, but I'm unworthy. Thanks for the entertainment.

i hope you enjoyed it. i enjoyed putting that thing together.

ADD: no hard feelings, i hope.

 

Hi John

 

Good stuff, I especially like the 'ribald chorus chime in with monkey applause'.

You can't let these denizens of the dark get under your skin. It's their form of sick and twisted fun.

 

that post was my chance to enjoy some sick and twisted fun.

 

This brings to mind a quote I read once...paraphrasing: "Nobody does revenge like a writer".

 

Nice work.

 

funny, how we're being so reasonable and civil, eh?

 

jw

[IDBillzFan]

And la billz has yet to come up with any reasonable answer to how I've managed to get under his or Her skin, except to post small missives that amount to wet farts and skidmarks. But that's far too easy a target, and I will admit to my digressions.

I'm glad Tom quoted this or I would have driven right by it.

 

First, I hope you understand that you don't get under my skin, nor could you, mostly because your posts remind me of my bong-sucking days as an English Lit student in our mediocre Rochester college, sitting on bunk beds with dorm neighbors, making obscure Ice Nine and Dr. Pangloss references with a nod and wink to my English Lit pals who also had no idea what I was saying, but who figured they at least knew more than everyone else in the room, leading them to nod and wink back in knowing confusion. So it's impossible for you to get under my skin because because I totally get what you're doing and it brings out a little nostalgia in me.

 

More to the point, however, I believe the issue being passed between yourself and 3rd has more to do with bringing down the fourth wall of theater than anything else. Theater's success is based on regular people being able to always stay in character while on stage, no matter what, and allowing the audience to momentarily forget that during the day Willie Loman is just another server at Perkins. Once you drop character on stage, the fourth wall falls and the performance loses credibility. Fortunately for me, I had no idea who the hell you were or what you did for a living for the longest time. But I have learned that Bills fans have relied on you as a respectful, authoritative figure on Bills football, and when you drop the fourth wall and post here, it eats into credibility.

 

Now I understand you probably don't care about any of this, or even subscribe to it, but I understand the fourth wall pretty well, and learned the sad way that not having faith or belief in your own credibility or value to a specific group of people who anticipate your next column or story doesn't mean it's not lost when you come out from behind the keyboard and start opining on other topics.

 

Just a thought.

[Delete This Account]

I'm glad Tom quoted this or I would have driven right by it.

 

First, I hope you understand that you don't get under my skin, nor could you, mostly because your posts remind me of my bong-sucking days as an English Lit student in our mediocre Rochester college, sitting on bunk beds with dorm neighbors, making obscure Ice Nine and Dr. Pangloss references with a nod and wink to my English Lit pals who also had no idea what I was saying, but who figured they at least knew more than everyone else in the room, leading them to nod and wink back in knowing confusion. So it's impossible for you to get under my skin because because I totally get what you're doing and it brings out a little nostalgia in me.

 

More to the point, however, I believe the issue being passed between yourself and 3rd has more to do with bringing down the fourth wall of theater than anything else. Theater's success is based on regular people being able to always stay in character while on stage, no matter what, and allowing the audience to momentarily forget that during the day Willie Loman is just another server at Perkins. Once you drop character on stage, the fourth wall falls and the performance loses credibility. Fortunately for me, I had no idea who the hell you were or what you did for a living for the longest time. But I have learned that Bills fans have relied on you as a respectful, authoritative figure on Bills football, and when you drop the fourth wall and post here, it eats into credibility.

 

Now I understand you probably don't care about any of this, or even subscribe to it, but I understand the fourth wall pretty well, and learned the sad way that not having faith or belief in your own credibility or value to a specific group of people who anticipate your next column or story doesn't mean it's not lost when you come out from behind the keyboard and start opining on other topics.

 

Just a thought.

thanks. i understand what you're saying. however, i shall not apologize for somehow letting you down.

and you still don't know who i am to be so quick to judge my credibility or lack thereof.

 

jw

[IDBillzFan]

thanks. i understand what you're saying. however, i shall not apologize for somehow letting you down.

and you still don't know who i am to be so quick to judge my credibility or lack thereof.

 

jw

If you truly understood what I was saying, it would have never entered your mind to write the last two sentences.

 

Write on.

[3rdnlng]

early deadline, i guess.

 

 

 

i hope you enjoyed it. i enjoyed putting that thing together.

ADD: no hard feelings, i hope.

 

that post was my chance to enjoy some sick and twisted fun.

 

 

 

funny, how we're being so reasonable and civil, eh?

 

jw

 

No hard feelings, John. My original post to you re 4:00am drunken rantings was sincere but much better said by LABillz above.

[DC Tom]

funny, how we're being so reasonable and civil, eh?

 

Civility is for pansies, like the Bills' offensive line. I'd rather be mean and nasty. It's more fun.

[LeviF]

bringing down the fourth wall

I always liked the Metal Gear Solid series.

[Lori]

I miss ALL the fun ...

John:

 

Brutal is seeing your good sports posts and articles overshadowed by your tequila induced liberal dumbass posts at 4:00 am.

 

Brutus

Graham, not Wawrow, is the tequila connoisseur. Or so I've heard.

 

And LA, my friend ... about that fourth wall. There's a difference between acting and writing. Hell, you've done both, so you know that better than I do. Try as I might, I fail to see how JW's personal views on politics have even a smidge of an effect on his job covering sports. Honestly: Did anyone here read the feature on Eric Wood, say, and think less of the story because it was written by someone who you disagree with on health care?

[Lori]

The truth is that I respect JW a whole hell of alot more than Graham, at least Wawrow can take the heat, whereas Graham has a low tolerance for criticism. I mean come on, you are giving opinions to a bunch of irrational rabid fans, and for the most part, people are generally a bunch of idiots, so any criticism should be taken with a grain of salt. Wawrow on the other hand engages, and I think he knows that any criticism he receives is not confined just to his work, but also due to this eloquent but yet childish 'back and forth' that many of us participate in as well.

 

The way I see it, when JW steps in to the PPP arena, all bets are off

Let's not make this about Tim.

 

I will say this, though: Constructive criticism is one thing, cheapshots and questioning someone's integrity decidedly different, and "well, he should be used to stuff like that" is a lousy excuse. While SDS wrote the policy about interacting with Tim and John in their professional capacity, I agree with it 100%.

 

And yes, the rules are different for PPP, and JW was warned about this place before he ever set foot in here.

[3rdnlng]

The truth is that I respect JW a whole hell of alot more than Graham, at least Wawrow can take the heat, whereas Graham has a low tolerance for criticism. I mean come on, you are giving opinions to a bunch of irrational rabid fans, and for the most part, people are generally a bunch of idiots, so any criticism should be taken with a grain of salt. Wawrow on the other hand engages, and I think he knows that any criticism he receives is not confined just to his work, but also due to this eloquent but yet childish 'back and forth' that many of us participate in as well.

 

The way I see it, when JW steps in to the PPP arena, all bets are off

 

Yes, it's lock and load time. John sets himself up a little (or a lot) though when he posts at 4:00am after having a "couple".

[IDBillzFan]

I miss ALL the fun ...

 

Graham, not Wawrow, is the tequila connoisseur. Or so I've heard.

 

And LA, my friend ... about that fourth wall. There's a difference between acting and writing. Hell, you've done both, so you know that better than I do. Try as I might, I fail to see how JW's personal views on politics have even a smidge of an effect on his job covering sports. Honestly: Did anyone here read the feature on Eric Wood, say, and think less of the story because it was written by someone who you disagree with on health care?

I get the feeling I'm not explaining this well enough. And let me preface this by saying I am not attempting to be mean or hateful toward Wawrow. I don't know him from Adam, and really don't care who he is or what he does. I'll take his half-drunk 3 a.m. rant on John Bolton over an Eric Wood story any day.

 

What I'm trying to say is it's not that people would think less of his stories because of his political opinions. The fourth wall serves as the disconnect between the authoritative voice and the author as a person. In the small world of Bills fans, the well-established authoritative voice (like Wawrow) carries credibility because there is a distinct connection between fan and author which the fan relies on to feed their fandom. It works great because the author fills a specific need, and to most fans, the relationship doesn't need to go any further than that very basic understanding: "I love the Bills and can not read enough about them to quench my desire. Wawrow writes great stuff about the Bills, and he plays an important role in my fandom by helping to quench my desire for Bills news. Therefore, Wawrow and I have a great relationship." Once the author expands their insightful offerings to something other than Bills news, the relationship changes to the extent that some blush could come off the authoritative rose.

 

It's great that he doesn't care. But sometimes, when a fan looks forward to that quenching of the fandom desire (especially during the offseason), sometimes that's all they want. And when they get more than they want, sometimes disappointment ensues and credibility falls a little. Some fans don't care. Some fans do. It doesn't matter to Wawrow, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to some fans.

 

And I think all 3rd was initially trying to say was he found himself disappointed in this. Fortunately for Wawrow, Wawrow doesn't care.