jahbonas Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 In terms of adding info to the demise of Polian and then Butler under Mr. Ralph, note should also be made of the ugly well publicized battle between Mr. Ralph and Wade Philips. Bum's kid deserved to be canned when he publicly gave up in his final season a couple of games before the Bills were mathematically eliminated (a particular travesty when Indy with the exact same record at the time Wade said no mas had the exact same record). The problem in typical Mr. Ralph MO was that he canned Wade who had another year left on his contract and then tried to screw him out of the last year's payment with claims Wade quit. Everyone in the league told Mr. Ralph he should simply pay Wade, but Ralphie forced him to arbitration who rule in Wade-os favor. Mr. Ralph deserves praise for keeping the Bills here when there were huge offers to go elsewhere, but along with this praise honestly needs to acknowledge the reality that as much blame as Jauron gets he is not responsible for about 2/3 of our being 0 for about a decade in making the playoffs. Jauron cannot do it but the calls for his head may be sweet revenge but do not speak to solving the problems which confront this team. Exactly right about the Wade Phillips fiasco being part of the Butler/AJ Smith problem....and you can see where Butler and AJ Smith sided...they had zero problem hiring Wade out in SanDiego as the defensive coordinator and were lining him up to slide in and replace Marty Schotts....surprise was that Dallas owner slid in quickly and scooped Wade as Cowboys head coach before the Marty Schotz situation cleared itself up....Chargers then had to go to Plan B and bring in norv Turner... AJ Smith wanted Marty Shotz out - but for team success wanted to keep the same system and terminolgy.....its also the exact strategy they employed when hiring Phillips in Buffalo under an older soon to retire Marv Levy Linda Bogdan had no credentials to be an NFL scout...much of scouting is the network of connections to coaching staffs who actually see these kids practice day in and day out etccc...how much info do you think coaching staffs in college were willing to share with a person they know did not pay the dues to get the scouting job she had? Then add to the fact she was a female working in an all guys old home boys network situation..... Yes Linda Bogden liked Jerry Butler and wished to pick him #1....incredible that it took Chuck Knox to over rule her and pick Cousineau.....and ofcourse Butler was still there at #5....not having to use the #1overall to get him Its just more stupidity that Ralph forced his coaches and GMs like Knox and Polian to have to walk on eggshells and pretend to listen to her opinions over the true pro scouts who made their way up thru the ranks and had access to the key info supplied to them by college coaching staffs Ahmad Rashad All pro WR we lose to Vikes over 15k.....how dumb of a non investment was that decided on by Littman and Wilson??? Historically they made piss poor decisions always.......the few bright times in the history of this team was provided by Knox and Polian and Butler.....the old man ushered them all away....and when they left all 3 brought great success to their new teams where success had not been for awhile (Seattle Colts & Chargers) and Ralph and Littman returned to their normal pattern of poor judgement...intrusive behavior,,,and continual losing Again....that behavior gets you in the HOF??? please..... The ONLY possible justification for his HOF is his history of sticking up for small cities and no relocations.....However...even now at 90+ he cannot put together a plan and make public that ensures the viability of this team staying in Buffalo A classic homerun would have been to use his HOF speach as the opportunity to display such a grand plan to stick up for small city Buffalo...it would have sent the clear message as to why he was being inducted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcolosi Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 And we can go down the list why his actions forced GM John Butler and AJ Smith and entire scouting crew to leave to San Diego....Gee what qualifications do you think Ralph's daughter had? What do you think Polian and the like felt about having to hear her opinion? Last decade San Diego and Colts have been model franchises...Ralph's Bills have simply returned to what they were prior to the Polian era The winning era provided by Polian/Butler was the exception not the rule for Ralph's teams... And this old man is in the HOF ?? And if he is in the HOF because he sticks up for small franchises and no franchise relocations...they why doesnt he unveil his plan to this small market how he has secured the Bills to stay in this area for a long time??? pretty sure that is only 50% true... SD has been just as dysfunctional as us (with a couple of better players and some playoff appearances). Going from 14-2 and firing the HC was a pretttty dumb move by aj smith, not to mention listening to fans and keeping LT over Turner and Sproles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcolosi Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Exactly right about the Wade Phillips fiasco being part of the Butler/AJ Smith problem....and you can see where Butler and AJ Smith sided...they had zero problem hiring Wade out in SanDiego as the defensive coordinator and were lining him up to slide in and replace Marty Schotts....surprise was that Dallas owner slid in quickly and scooped Wade as Cowboys head coach before the Marty Schotz situation cleared itself up....Chargers then had to go to Plan B and bring in norv Turner...AJ Smith wanted Marty Shotz out - but for team success wanted to keep the same system and terminolgy.....its also the exact strategy they employed when hiring Phillips in Buffalo under an older soon to retire Marv Levy Linda Bogdan had no credentials to be an NFL scout...much of scouting is the network of connections to coaching staffs who actually see these kids practice day in and day out etccc...how much info do you think coaching staffs in college were willing to share with a person they know did not pay the dues to get the scouting job she had? Then add to the fact she was a female working in an all guys old home boys network situation..... Yes Linda Bogden liked Jerry Butler and wished to pick him #1....incredible that it took Chuck Knox to over rule her and pick Cousineau.....and ofcourse Butler was still there at #5....not having to use the #1overall to get him Its just more stupidity that Ralph forced his coaches and GMs like Knox and Polian to have to walk on eggshells and pretend to listen to her opinions over the true pro scouts who made their way up thru the ranks and had access to the key info supplied to them by college coaching staffs Ahmad Rashad All pro WR we lose to Vikes over 15k.....how dumb of a non investment was that decided on by Littman and Wilson??? Historically they made piss poor decisions always.......the few bright times in the history of this team was provided by Knox and Polian and Butler.....the old man ushered them all away....and when they left all 3 brought great success to their new teams where success had not been for awhile (Seattle Colts & Chargers) and Ralph and Littman returned to their normal pattern of poor judgement...intrusive behavior,,,and continual losing Again....that behavior gets you in the HOF??? please..... The ONLY possible justification for his HOF is his history of sticking up for small cities and no relocations.....However...even now at 90+ he cannot put together a plan and make public that ensures the viability of this team staying in Buffalo A classic homerun would have been to use his HOF speach as the opportunity to display such a grand plan to stick up for small city Buffalo...it would have sent the clear message as to why he was being inducted I'm sorry what is great success qualified as? In my book its qualified by at LEAST a SB appearance and multiple trips to the playoffs. Knox and Smith haven't done that... just bill... because he's amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I'm sorry what is great success qualified as? In my book its qualified by at LEAST a SB appearance and multiple trips to the playoffs. Knox and Smith haven't done that... just bill... because he's amazing Knox brought Seattle its first ever Division championship in an era of a strong AFC Western Division dominated by Oakland and Denver and the Don Coryell Chargers of early 80's. Thats success just like Knox brought to Buffalo its 1st AFC East division title in 1980 that we had not seen in 15 years...had only 1 playoff appearance in that same 15 years and twice picked #1 overall because we were the worst team in the NFL....yes thats success.... San Diego Chargers under Butler were built into perennial winners whether they made the Superbowl or not....much was accomplished there due to the same core scouting staff that scouted for us in Buffalo The Chargers were 1-15 when Butler took over by 2004 they were 12-4.....thats called success In 1981 seahawks were 6-10 1982 the Seahwaks were 4-5 team....in 1984 Knox leads them to 12-4 and first ever division championship...yes thats success.... Please compare to the Bills decade os 1970s...1980s...and 2000s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Jabber Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Bill Polian never "would not return Tom Condon's calls...thats bull ****"....what was true...and rings very ture to history...is Polian wanted to lock Wilford up before his contract expired....Ralph and Littman wished to let the contract play out and see what happens in free agency....Ralph (that f%%$ idiot) gets screwed by a slick move by the Colts who offered Wilford a contract the Bills could not match....and Ralph & Littman BEGGED the NFL to let them pay Wilford and keep him....but the NFL awarded Wilfords contract to Colts....POLIAN was right all along....and the same bumbling idiots who blewoff Rashad and Cousineau & Cribbs now lost Will Wolford at a critical time....The loss of Wilford hurt the Bills just enough where we went from being 7 pt favorites in Superbowl to being decided underdog..... I also asked Polian and he mentioned Littman killed a deal that would have sent DT Pierce Holt to Buffalo.... No Wilford...no Pierce Holt....no superbowl....but ralph can count his $$$$$ That's just as bad as going with Rob Johnson over Doug Flutie in the playoff game vs the Titans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopple Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Why did Ralph fire Polian? The reason Polian was fired, was because he has an abrasive personality. And Ralph Wilson didn't like being yelled at by his employees. He simply had enough of the guy. I believe Ralph wanted to let him go during training camp in the summer of '92. But Marv Levy talked him out of it. Told him it would be best for the team to wait until after the season. (At least that's how I remember it.) While I don't believe Polian will return to Buffalo, the Bills have to do two things. First, hire a real GM, a real football guy to run the front office. Along with one of the well known, successful, head coaches who are currently unemployed or working in broadcasting. Teams such as the Broncos, Ravens, and Steelers seem to have hit pay-dirt by hiring young assistants with no previous head coaching experience. But the Bills have been down that road twice with Mulkary and Williams. And we all know how that turned out. IMHO, no one but a Mike Shananhan or Bill Cowher is going to please the fan base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 The reason Polian was fired, was because he has an abrasive personality. And Ralph Wilson didn't like being yelled at by his employees. He simply had enough of the guy. I believe Ralph wanted to let him go during training camp in the summer of '92. But Marv Levy talked him out of it. Told him it would be best for the team to wait until after the season. (At least that's how I remember it.) While I don't believe Polian will return to Buffalo, the Bills have to do two things. First, hire a real GM, a real football guy to run the front office. Along with one of the well known, successful, head coaches who are currently unemployed or working in broadcasting. Teams such as the Broncos, Ravens, and Steelers seem to have hit pay-dirt by hiring young assistants with no previous head coaching experience. But the Bills have been down that road twice with Mulkary and Williams. And we all know how that turned out. IMHO, no one but a Mike Shananhan or Bill Cowher is going to please the fan base. Gee somehow Jim irsay can tolerate that 'abrasive' Polian personality and let him do his work guiding them to a superbowl and consistent post seasons - and again so far an undefeated season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 You are correct. If I recall, the reason used for Butler and Smith being pushed out was because Ralph was unhappy with the contract situations paid to players. There were alot of contracts paid to players that were no longer with the team, that the Bills were still paying for all in the name of quality. If that is true, you can't operate a business that way. However, Butler and Smith have had a tremendous amount of success in San Diego. Similar to Polian in Indy. And isn't that something when compared to the Bills? Those 2 teams (chargers and colts), are good despite who plays QB and who the head coach is. The Bills, are terrible no matter who the head coach is or who the QB is. That my friends, reflects on the front office. Red, You are correct that Ralph was very steamed about "dead" money for players who were not on the roster. But what this miser owner didn't realize is that teams go through cap cycles and player development cycles. Young drafted players develop and then go on to their next more lucrative second contracts. The Bills were on the down cycle with their SB run players. Butler tried to stretch out another playoff run. No matter who was going to be the GM those more expensive and worn out players were going to be cycled out. What the owner didn't understand was that was a normal process for any team to undergo. When Donahoe became the GM he cleaned house in one major swoop. That was probably the best way to go. Get it over quickly and then restock the roster. The problem was that he was very good in cleaning house but not too proficient on restocking the roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Shouldn't there be a Billboard saying Fire Jeff Littman and Jim Overdrof? Its obvious these guys are the problem. Modrak, Guy, and Brandon have their hands tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Philster Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Again....that behavior gets you in the HOF??? please..... The ONLY possible justification for his HOF is his history of sticking up for small cities and no relocations.....However...even now at 90+ he cannot put together a plan and make public that ensures the viability of this team staying in Buffalo A classic homerun would have been to use his HOF speach as the opportunity to display such a grand plan to stick up for small city Buffalo...it would have sent the clear message as to why he was being inducted As I already stated Read Felser's book The Birth of the New NFL You'll see a lot of why he's in the Hall of Fame. If you wanna be ignorant of the facts, keep it to yourself Gee somehow Jim irsay can tolerate that 'abrasive' Polian personality and let him do his work guiding them to a superbowl and consistent post seasons - and again so far an undefeated season Or maybe Polian learned to control his temper after he was canned here? Nah...couldn't be it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyC81 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I really think Ralph WANTS to win a Super Bowl and I said this several weeks ago, but he is simply incapable of it. He just does not have the competence to bring in the right person to run the operation. And if he somehow could stumble onto another Polian type of talent, he'd mess it up somehow like he did with Polian. At the end of the day, Ralph is a business man first, a football fan second. Not all owners are this way. The ones who continually field winners want a winner first-and-foremost, and then want it to be profitable. I don't think any franchise is LOSING money. The NFL is just too lucrative for the owners. So, why the hell not try to field a winner. How many millions of profit is enough? A winning team and a profitable team are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. They CAN co-exist. For whatever it's worth, according to Marv Levy in his book, he recommended Polian who he had worked with before so Ralph didn't stumble onto him. I'm still of the opinion that Levy was an average coach who was given the fantastic talent that led to his success. He was frequently outcoached in big games however (Ex: Super Bowl 25) and he could've done a better job with the Bickering Bills and with the team reaction to Thurman's fumble returned for a TD to start the 2nd half of Super Bowl 28 that just tied the game. Leaving TT by himself to sulk was not the way to handle the latter. But, give Marv a kudo for recommending Polian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Hmmm....jerking around with a good player to save some coin, overplaying the hand and losing the player...hmmm....now why doesn that sound familiar??? Those guys sucked and didn't deserve to go to the probowl!!!!....Just kidding....same old same old. Bruce Smith, the best DE ever, still had trouble getting paid. It's sickening to think of but look at all of the talent we have let go. Well paid BUT affordable talent. Good teams win by acquiring it, bad teams lose by letting it go. Simple as that. We try to survive on average to above average guys that we pay pretty well for their talent level. No difference makers, just role players. It's amazing the change in culture that can take place when a front office it shows it wants to win not save money. You can't go throwing it around like Danny Schneider but if you build a TALENTED winning team like the Pats you'll be amazed at the discounted high end free agents you can attract. If players think they have a shot at play offs or more importantly a super bowl they will want to be a part of the team more than looking for a paycheck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 For whatever it's worth, according to Marv Levy in his book, he recommended Polian who he had worked with before so Ralph didn't stumble onto him. I'm still of the opinion that Levy was an average coach who was given the fantastic talent that led to his success. He was frequently outcoached in big games however (Ex: Super Bowl 25) and he could've done a better job with the Bickering Bills and with the team reaction to Thurman's fumble returned for a TD to start the 2nd half of Super Bowl 28 that just tied the game. Leaving TT by himself to sulk was not the way to handle the latter. But, give Marv a kudo for recommending Polian. Exactly...I thought they worked together in CFL...then marv went to Chicago FIRE in USFL...Marv convinced Polian to leave CFL and come to USFL then it went belly up...I'm pretty sure though that Polian then landed on the Bills scouting staff...was then elevated to GM...and then Polian hired Levy who was not coaching Unless Wilson had ties to levy from long time prior I agree with you about the coaching staff screwing up a top talented team in 1990 1991....but also just at that point where we needed to add 1 more physical player to put us over the top.....Ralph instead subtracts our physical LT Wolford...and never adds the big DT we needed instead of Jeff Wright...who was unfairly asked to play NT at 270lbs Pierce Holt would have helped a ton... Gee Ralph you cannot take the $$$ with you...how does it feel now knowing in hinsight you cheaped out at that critical time...saved some $$$...and now have no Superbowl ring... We were subtracting players from that taleneted 1990 team while dalls was acquiring Charles haleys and Deon Sanders to put them over the top.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 FWIW, Bogdan was scouting for the team long before Polian got to Buffalo. In fact, she went to one particular game to look at a QB, but returned raving to anyone who would listen about a WR who played for the other team. Ended up talking the powers-that-be -- her dad, probably -- into drafting the kid. That kid was Jerry Butler. that is some serious work there finding a 1st round WR talent that the Bills did not know existed pretty much sums up the pre-Polian scouting capabilities at OBD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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