CincyBillsFan

To be honest only Allen & Diggs were considered elite going into this season. Cook & Kincaid represented POTENTIAL and nothing more. Cook had been average his rookie year and Kincaid had not caught a pass in the NFL yet. As for the O line Bean made some bargain basement signings & a late 2nd round draft pick. This is more then they did in previous years but hardly represented splash signings with high probability's of success. Like you, I was excited about the signings and HOPED that they would be considered steals at the end of the season. And early in the season that was shaping up to be true. But now there has been a clear regression in the guard play and it's concerning. So yes we had high expectations for the offense and figured it could carry the team. But those expectations were driven as much by wishful thinking (I am guilty of this) as an honest appraisal of the talent. Beyond Allen & Diggs there is no one on the offense that has shown they can carry that unit. Kincaid has shown tantalizing glimpses of what may be coming but right now there are not enough high end layers on the offense (O line plus skill players) to expect this unit to carry the load. BTW, the defense had multiple high end players that would enable that unit to carry the load but most of them got hurt. It happens all the time.

Against NE the defense definitely was the problem and was the reason the Bills lost the game.

It's absurd to say Allen doesn't see the open receivers. His stats would indicate otherwise or are you saying that all those completions over the last three and a half seasons have been to tightly covered players while he ignores the open ones? Since 2020 Allen has been a top 3 QB in production, including this season. If pointing this obvious stat out makes me a member of the Josh Allen cult please pass me the cool aid.

I just re-watched the second half Bills versus NE drives and he was doing exactly that in every drive accept one where he moved the Bills down fast for the TD. A week earlier against the Giants the Bills had TD drives of 17 & 13 plays and all Allen did was be patient.

It's the mindset of most defensive coaches. And this is why they ultimately fail even with elite QB's. The Bills and the Chargers are poster boys for this.

You need to bone up on your Bills history. Using Sal Maiorana's wonderful resource RELENTLESS: The Hard Hitting History of Buffalo Bills Football I focused my search down to the best years in Bills history from 1988 - 1993. This was a Bills O loaded with All Pros and future HOFers. Total games played = 112 (regular season + playoffs) Games where the Bills were shutout in the first half = 11 or about 10% of their games Games where the Bills were held to 6 points or less and no TD's (includes shutouts) = 29 or about 26% of their games. Games where the Bills were held to 7 points or less = 43 or about 40% of their games. Some memorable low scoring first half streaks: 1988: 7 & 0 1989: 3 & 0 0 & 6 1990: 0 & 20 & 3 & 7 1991: 7 & 7 & 6 1992: 10 & 6 & 10 & 3 3 & 3 1993: 10 & 6 & 10 0 & 0

That difference is entirely dependent on factors other then two QB's. It is a team game after all.

Bingo. In half the games you play either the O or D doesn't play well for long stretches of time. This is especially true for the O which is more prone to up and down play. There is a reason that offensive performance against NE was a record breaker - those types of games are rare. There seems to be a grossly unrealistic expectation of how these games play out in the real world.

Greg Cosell's quote about the Bills and Allen is worth repeating again and again: "If your QB has to be elite in every game then you have a problem and it's not the QB".

I hate to agree with you because I believe the Bills should focus on offense and not defense but in the here and now the D is hemorrhaging and we won't win many games no matter how well the O plays with this defense. When you make Mac Jones look like Joe Burrow there are problems. So yes, to save this season they'll need to sign a LB or DT.

Good points. I would add Tua and McDaniel. As an aside, if you ever wanted proof of the impact of an offensive minded coach on a team and QB you don't have to look any further then Tua & McDaniel. Tua was a disaster under defensive guru Flores while under McDaniel he's right on the edge of being elite. And the difference between the fishes offense under McDaniels and Flores is enormous.

If they do they're nuts.

You're right but your post got me to thinking along another line and that was what my post was about. The fact was that so far this season Mahomes and Allen have been pretty close in every QB metric yet no one would claim Mahomes struggles to see the field or can't read defenses or doesn't work hard in the off season. Yet Allen is being accused of all of these things.

It's almost as if there was a team involved in deciding these games.

You will never convince me Dan Marino wasn't elite.

And you're countering with highly subjective analysis. Is Marino the last word here? I'll wait to here from a lot more "experts" before taking what Marino said as gospel. Everything you say about Allen in your last paragraph is a gross distortion and exaggeration of what is happening on the field IMO. And for the record I'm not "box score scoring". I'm looking at the cumulative rankings of QB's after 7 weeks of play. And I'll trust that sample size of OBJECTIVE measurements over one or two guys looking at the film in a highly subjective way.

Mahomes and Allen are pretty darn close in all of the statistical measures. I would agree that Mahomes is a bit ahead of him at this point in the season. But NO ONE would call out Mahomes for the things they're calling out Allen for. Yet objectively both QB's performance over the season so far is very similar. Allen had the worst game of the two but he also had the best game of the two. So again why are people dogging Allen about reading defenses and seeing the field in ways they wouldn't dare say about Mahomes for fear of looking stupid?

Again you conflate "bad" with mediocre. They are two very different things when talking about QB play in the NFL. And if you had lived through the 18 year playoff drought and seen what "bad" QBing actually looked like you would not say Allen was bad in the 1st half against NE. Oh and Allen was excellent in the 2nd half.

Who is saying Allen is above reproach and should never be criticized? You are mislabeling those of us who push back hard on over the top attacks on Allen as people that are unwilling to tolerate any legitimate criticisms of Allen. That is not what is going on here. And your choice of "Saint Allen" in your thread title betrays your misreading of what we're saying. I have no problems with legit criticisms of Allen. But I'm also not obligated to agree with every one of these criticisms either. There are places where reasonable and knowledgeable Bills fans can disagree on Allen. After all those of us called "Allen homers" on 2BD largely criticized Allen after the Jets game. And we don't have to be harsh in our criticism. IMO Allen has earned the benefit of the doubt from Bills fans that no QB since Jim Kelly has earned. I see to many posters tell us Allen is lazy or can't read defenses or is distracted by off field activities or doesn't see the field well and on and on. I don't agree with this because while it is true that Allen is many of these things at times in a game, like every other QB, it is also true that overall Allen is not these things. And my proof is his season to date stats. Allen's rank among QB Starters: Yards passing = #6 Passing TD's = tied with Mahomes & Tua for #2 Total TD's = #1 Regular QB Rating = #6 QBR = #3 Sorry but given the quality of the Bills O line and skill players not named Diggs a QB that doesn't see the field well or read defenses could not put up these stats. Allen is not surrounded by the Eagles or 49's offensive units. Bringing it back to the NE game. Some of us are reacting to those claiming that Allen played terribly. Do you think he did? The objective evidence overwhelmingly supports that overall he played very good and had the Bills in a position to win the game. That is not saying Allen couldn't have played better, he could have. If elite Allen was on the field the Bills win that game no matter what the D does. So a reasonable position to disagree IMO is whether Allen was very good or just good in the NE game. I would never characterize Allen's play against NE as great that would be wrong. But equally wrong is to try to claim Allen played poorly against NE. But as Greg Cosell says repeatedly when discussing the Bills: "If you need your QB to be elite in every game you have a big problem and it's not the QB".

But he didn't play bad in the NE game. In fact he played good if you go by QBR & the regular QB rating. He was average in the 1st half and he was excellent in the 2nd half. He got the Bills the lead with under 2 minutes left. That's not playing "bad" by a long shot. The problem with some of you people is that you equate Allen not playing at an all pro level as playing "bad". That's silly on its face but you do it all the time. Allen only played "bad" in one game this season - against the Jets. Since that game he has been good to great in every game. Which is exactly where you want your franchise QB to be. As Greg Cosell keeps saying if you need your QB to be elite in every game you got a problem and it's not the QB.

I didn't want to use the word "ghosts" because of the famous Darnold comment but you're right and that is exactly what it is. In fact I've seen it a lot even with the best QB's. Go back and watch Mahomes in the TB Super Bowl. There are times he bails from the pocket when he doesn't have to but he was under a lot of pressure. And I use Mahomes here as I have immense respect for him.

It beats jumping all over Allen every time the Bills lose and he doesn't have a HOF game. I would expect that sort of stuff about Allen on a Jet's or Dolphins message board. But it takes someone who is clinically depressed to do it repeatedly on a Bills message board. But hey we all have an opinion and you're entitled to yours.

Another point about pressure and it's effect that is hard to quantify but I suspect is very important is the impact of repeated QB pressures on those moments when there isn't much pressure on the QB. According to the stats I've seen Allen was pressured on 41% of his drop backs which is very high. This will have a cumulative impact on how a QB reacts on pass plays when the rush isn't as effective and he has time. Over the years I've seen many elite QB's get "rattled" a bit by continuous pressure and not make the best decisions or throws when their pass protection did hold up. After a DT breaks free up the gut and is in your face you become less willing to move up in the pocket because you no longer trust that the pocket will hold up. And when you're being harassed form one side with almost immediate pressure you might jump out of the pocket on plays where the pressure isn't immediate. I think one of the keys to Allen's amazing ability to avoid sacks is that he anticipates the pass rush very well. But this will also mean he will be wrong sometimes and his anticipation will betray him and he'll bail to soon from the pocket. But against NE there are a lot of NFL QB's who would have been sacked at least 4 or 5 more times then Allen did. I guess what I'm saying is that the price you pay when your QB is under constant pressure is that they'll bail from the pocket to soon or throw the ball into the ground on pays where they did have time & opportunity to move up in the pocket. Not sure ho you would quantitate this factor but it's real. I address this in my post above.

I question this conclusion. My sense watching the game was that Allen was put under much more serious pressure on a lot more plays then Jones saw. Jones was able to "climb the pocket" largely because there was an intact pocket to climb. Some of Allen's worst pressure came up the gut leaving little room to climb the pocket. I think NE's pass rush was far more effective then the Bills so I'm wondering how you can compare the reactions of the two QB's.

No but I've always thought that sequence was weird, very weird. If you can go back and re-watch it. And people are people. If McD got on the head phones and yelled at DaBoll to run the ball I could see this exact reaction - even in the middle of the game. I know that's a lot of "ifs" but I've never forgotten that series and thought it stood out in comparison to how DaBoll called the rest of the game. Both coaches were very professional during their years together and we didn't see the likely bad blood between the two. But we saw it after that Sunday night game.