CincyBillsFan

My point was that Wilson runs mostly as a second option on a play and Allen is starting to follow this pattern. That is the "style" I was referring to. In contrast Jackson runs mostly by design. The Ravens blocking schemes and pass routes are set up to enable Jackson to run if that's what he chooses to do. Wilson and Allen mostly run when their pass protection breaks down or the D-line is undisciplined in their pass rush and leaves wide open run lanes.

But that's not the same thing as what you're saying. I'm one of those convinced that Jackson would not do as well as Allen in the Buffalo offensive system with the Bills current group of players. To be fair it's an almost impossible question to answer because the Ravens are running such a unique offense. But when you look at Jackson's passing game, which is primarily short & intermediate throws to his TE's in the middle of the field with an occasional over the top throw, you see the classic passing success you get against teams geared up to stop a dangerous running game. When Jackson throws to the sideline his accuracy drops significantly. Jackson's reads are complex but do not focus solely on the passing options. He reads the run first to decide whether he keeps the ball or hands it off to the RB. If neither is open he progresses to making a pass read which usually involves a RB or TE on a shallow cross across the middle. He is not often asked to read the entire field in the Ravens passing attack. In most conventional spread offenses he would be asked to read the field and get the ball to the open spot.

What about Russel Wilson? He plays in a completely different offense then Jackson does. If anything Wilson's use of the run, even as a young player, is far closer to Allen's style then Jackson's. Do you actually watch the Ravens play offense? It is a truly unique platform in what they ask their QB to do. Oh and for the record, Wilson is a prime example of how a smart QB runs. Allen needs to learn from what Wilson does.

I don't care how smart you think Jackson is at running with the football if he keeps running iti as much as he does he will take big hits. Just ask Micheal Vick. This is the NFL.

Are you really sure Jackson will be a perennial top 10 guy? The proof will be next year when defenses have had a chance to catch up with him. Cam Newton had a Jackson like year when Carolina went 15 - 1 and lost the Super Bowl. But defenses caught up and while Newton remained a very good QB he didn't dominate the league again. That may be Jackson's future. We just don't know. As for Allen being a franchise guy? We don't know yet but I like the signs so far. It will take 4 - 5 years before we know for sure. But right now I'm cautiously optimistic that Allen is the guy.

Be a pocket passer that throws effectively to the outside. Jackson's success at throwing the ball when he drops back into the pocket is a direct result of the Ravens rushing game plan that makes the play action pass deadly. It's a brilliant design and works great for Jackson & the Ravens talent base. But the Ravens offense is very different then Buffalo's.

The question is more nuanced then you make it out to be. Unless I was getting the Ravens O-line, their TE's and RB and of course Greg Roman to design & call plays there is no way in hell I'm trading Allen for Jackson. And I'm not being a homer in saying that nor am I questioning that Jackson is an MVP worthy player this season. IMO if you put Jackson in the Bills offense and asked him to do what we ask Allen to do Jackson would NOT do it as well.

And that's why this coaching staff is very good. Knowing your limitations is probably more important then knowing your strengths!

We won't know your last question for another 2 - 3 years. It takes 4 to 5 years in total before you can really be sure if you have a franchise QB. But everything I've seen to date is trending in the right direction. But I do disagree to a point with your notion that Allen is only a game manager and is not being asked to win games only to not lose them. As you mention in your post, Allen has led 5 game winning drives which to me means that they really do ask him, in a limited way, to win some games for them.

How many times must those of us who see real improvement and flashes of elite potential in Allen have to say HE STILL HAS A LOT OF AREAS HE NEEDS TO IMPROVE IN before you sour pusses quit setting up & knocking down this straw man? I can't think of a single 2BD post claiming that Allen is setting the world on fire. Where do you get this stuff?

Well if our defense sucked Allen might have a whole bunch of 300 yard games as he threw against prevent defenses every week! I guess that would make some of you happy now wouldn't it?

I wouldn't say we're making excuses for Allen as much as we're reacting to unfair and ignorant criticism of the guy. Most of us would agree with your description of where Allen is as he approaches the end of his 2nd season. We agree that there is much he needs to improve in his game but the future looks bright. But when someone claims Allen is a "bottom tier QB" there's going to be push back. Because claiming Allen is "bottom tier" is dumber then saying he's elite.

Rubbish. It depends on the stats you use. If you focus on QB rating or yards or % completions he's below average. But if you look at TOTAL TD's (rushing & passing) he's in the TOP 10. Even better he has a very good ratio of TD's/TO's (27/13) at over 2. If you look at 4th quarter ratings he's #3 and Buffalo is designed to win games in the 4th quarter. That's a stated goal of coach McD. If you look at Allen's Red Zone rankings he's top 10. For a team with an elite D that's a much more important stat then say passing yardage by the QB. We all agree that Allen has much to improve in his game. Anyone with a lick of sense also would agree that he gets 4 - 5 years to fully reach his potential. And only someone with a weak understanding of football would label Allen as a bottom tier NFL QB. He's middle of the pack with a solid upward trajectory.

I can't completely separate Collinsworth from PFF. PFF has an ax to grind and Collinsworth as a PFF investor shares that same ax. And given that this was the first time the Bills had been on Sunday Night football in a LONG time it was bush league by Collinsworth to bash Allen as much as he did. Sure, some criticism was warranted last night. But Collinsworth wouldn't let it drop and half his critique had more to do with tired old stereotypes that Allen wasn't even guilty of last night. It was unrelenting and bordered on the obsessive. I also don't recall a whole lot of praise from Collinsworth for the things Allen did well. You mention fumbles but Allen didn't fumble last night. Singleterry did - TWICE yet Collinsworth glossed right over it so he could take another shot at Allen's footwork. And when you look at lost fumbles, there are plenty of QB's who have as many or more then Allen. Again, half of what Collinsworth spouted last night was a false narrative that either never was true or hadn't been true for the last 10 games. As for missing key passes, which ones would that be? Sure he badly missed Beasley in the flat on 2nd & 8 but it was hardly a key pass. Today I listened to the Cowherd show. Now NO ONE can accuse Cowherd of being an Allen apologist. In fact he was blisteringly critical of Allen after the Bills drafted him. Today he kept including Allen by name when talking about athletic QB's who produce in the clutch being the future of the NFL. IMO a more reasonable take by Collinsworth last night would have been along the lines of Allen being inconsistent but having all the tools to be elite.

As a Chiefs fan you should be the last to talk about catching this type of pass. Over the last 2 seasons I have seen KC receivers make catches on balls that looked a lot like Allen's high throw to Beasley. Kelsey alone seems to make 1 or 2 catches of "poorly" thrown balls every game. In reality though those passes are not "poorly" thrown because in the NFL the first job is to get the ball to where a receiver can catch it.

My guess is that this is the classic dilemma of play callers. They overthink things by believing that the opponent EXPECTS us to feature Allen in the red zone so let's cross them up by taking it out of his hands! As an aside, does anyone remember that first year with Bledsoe when we started out 2 - 0 and we thought we were Super Bowl bound and we went down to Miami and tried that same play (stretch run that the RB pulls up and throws the ball) with the RB trying to throw a pass in the red zone. I think it got intercepted and we lost the game and finished the season 8 - 8.

Great comment. There is a double standard in assessing Allen and it stinks. The good news is that Allen is sharpening his saw playing these kinds of games. Steel is being tempered here and will pay huge dividends going forward.

We'll have to agree to disagree. IMO, that was a pretty routine play by NFL standards. Rather then looking at Allen's performance through rose colored glasses I like to think of it as watching the game with the understanding that we were on the road against an elite defense in a playoff level game. And in this game our 2nd year, raw QB prospect made a lot more clutch plays then he made mistakes.

I think because Allen is raw and the Bills use him in a way that is almost as unconventional as the way the Ravens use Jackson. McD & Bean have a vision for how this team would look and Allen is their ideal QB. I'm beginning to wonder if the powers that be in Buffalo were not only interested in Allen's physical attributes but liked his attitude just as much. By "attitude" I mean his combination of cockiness and selflessness on the football field. Allen will NEVER regret not throwing for 400 yards and 4 TD's as long as the team wins. I don't think this guy gives a hoot about the stats. He has the perfect ego for a McD coached team.

Also notice how he looks off the safety. He starts by staring down the left side where he has trips and then turns his head and fires that very accurate TD pass. Excellent anticipation by Allen & route by Kroft.

Who says 139 yards is awful when you win the game and the QB scores both TD's? Would you rather have Allen throw for 400 yards and we lose the game. There's another thread that talks about the value of combining TD runs and passes as the key metric for assessing a QB. Yards are overrated. Using the following metric Allen had a solid game tonight and has had a good season so far: Combine total TD's (passing & rushing) and compare that value to the total turnovers (fumbles lost & interceptions) and you get: * for tonight's game 2/1 * for the season 27/13 and on pace for 31/15 after 16 games Solid and getting better. Next year look for 40/10.

But how valuable are these stats? They don't address situational football IMO. I'm becoming more and more convinced that all these different QB metrics are somewhat meaningless. The metrics I think are important are: * Adding passing & rushing TD's together and then comparing that number to the sum of the interceptions & fumbles LOST by the QB. With that metric Allen was 2 - 1 tonight and is 27 - 13 for the season. That is very good. And next year Allen's numbers here will be even better. * Clutch play. This is a subjective metric that includes game winning drives and come from behind wins and performance in the 4th quarter & red zone. I have no idea how you would quantitate this with a numerical value but Allen is above average in all these things. Tonight he led a very critical, game winning TD drive. * Won/lost record. Ultimately this is how QB's should be judged. It's a harsh measure becasue they don't play ST's or defense. In only his 2nd year our project QB is improving and in some areas is quite good. Considering he's not surrounded by elite play makers Allen is making excellent progress. Remembering how posters responded to the Bills drafting Allen less then 2 years ago his development as our starting QB has to have exceeded expectations. The continued nit picking in the face of this teams unprecedented success this season is depressing.

I disagree 100% * First off that was a brilliant back shoulder throw by Allen. Mahomes & Rogers hit that pass all the time. You do realize that the Steelers DB was called for PI on that play right? That's what a great back shoulder throw does - catch it for a big gain or draw a PI. * Brown didn't really prevent a pick on that throw. That was the moron Collingsworth trying to claim that the throw was almost intercepted. Watch a replay and the DB would have had to make a spectacular play to INT that ball. It was a good 50/50 ball by Allen and Brown did a nice job fighting for it and preventing any chance for an INT. Pretty routine play by an NFL WR. That POS Collinsworth was unbelievably negative about Allen. That "almost interception" was a perfect example of it.

The pick wasn't all on Allen. I would say it was 75% on Beasley and 25% on Allen. Was the ball thrown high? Yes. But so what. That pass is caught most of the time in the NFL. I like Beasley and think he's been a great addition to the Bills but size matters and in some situations we just have to live with the disadvantage that his size brings.

A- When it mattered most, Allen came through big. With this offense and considering where Allen is in his development the stats mean nothing. Two drives earned him the A-. 1) After the bad punt we faced 3rd & 20 and Allen gained 12 yards on a nice run. Then on 4th & 8 he had a perfect throw to Brown for the 1st down. That kept the drive alive and we got a TD. 2) After tying the game Allen had 2 fantastic throws midway through the 4th quarter to take the Bills 70 yards for the winning TD. Playing on the road against an elite D is not going to boost your stats. What matters is what happens at key moments in the game. And again, Allen came through. He now has 27 total TD's and 13 total TO's. That's really good. And those are the numbers that matter. Yardage, not so much.