SoTier

How long will that take do you think? A decade? Two decades? Three? There is absolutely no evidence during the Pegulas' ownership that the incompetence that has been the hallmark of the Bills' FO since Polian left 20+ years ago has been addressed.

"A solid #2" is NOT success, and neither is a .500 record as a starter. Success is being a competent starter for a number of seasons, which means being at least on a par with Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Alex Smith, etc.... and no, EJ Manuel will never be that. It's unlikely that Cardale Jones will either, but stranger things have happened.

Somebody already mentioned "Amazing Grace", and I'll second that. I'll also add the beautiful Catholic hymn, "The Prayer of St Francis". For more modern music, ie, country, since that's what I mostly listen to, I would say songs about the aftermath of lost love or unrequited love ... Doug Stone's "I Thought It Was You" or Eric Church's "Give Me Back My Hometown" or Dan Seals' "Everything That Glitters" or Keith Whitley's "Don't Close Your Eyes".

So, watch other teams that you can't watch on local tv because your local station airs the Jests vs Cleveland ... Geez, unless the Bills are DOA beginning on opening day, they should be interesting for a couple of months...

So, why is he still looking for a gig with TCs about to open while TJ Yates is with a team? If Kaepernick was so much better than Yates, some team would have signed him despite his political views. Competent backup QBs are almost as hard to find as competent starting QBs. Moreover, the statement was that Kaep was better than any of the Bills backups. Peterman is the youngster nobody knows anything about in the NFL. He certainly has a better chance of becoming a decent starting QB than Kaepernick who has already failed twice. Is there some iron-clad guarantee that every draft class must contain a franchise QB? The 2002, 2007, 2010, and 2013 drafts had none, so drafting #1 still wouldn't have gotten "us a long term QB solution". Oh, yeah, the Bills DID draft a first round QB recently ... in 2013. Doh! To spin fantasies that some failed starter is going to magically resurrect a career than never was.

I think that what's happened to NASCAR is simply that our culture is changing. People's tastes and interests have changed. It's not like it's something that's never happened before. Through the 1940s and 1950s, horse racing was probably the most popular sport in the nation. Horses like Man O'War, Sea Biscuit, Citation, and Swaps were celebrities as were their jockeys. Every newspaper carried the race entries/results from the local tracks as well as stories about the major races from around the country. Important races were carried live on the radio, and later, in the 1950s and 1960s, on TV. Today horse racing is a niche sport with virtually the only races being carried nationally are the Triple Crown and the Breeders Cup. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, tennis mesmerized the country. Bobby Riggs vs Billie Jean King. Chrissie Evert and Jimmie Conners were "an item" for a while, and people really cared. John McEnroe was a tantrum-throwing brat. People watched Wimbledon and the American Open religiously. Now, unless you get The Tennis Channel, you'll be lucky to find a live tennis match even at the US Open, although one of the networks usually has a late-night tennis show during the Grand Slam events. Now, it's NASCAR's that's lost the draft and is getting shuffled back.

Why, exactly, is Kaep better than any of our backups? Because he had a string of impressive games with a very talented team toward the end of one season when defenses hadn't figured out how to stop him? His best year was his first year as a starter with SF. He was never that good again once defensive coordinators figured out how to stop Roman's offense. Like a lot of first year starters, especially those on excellent teams, Kaep looked good at first but fizzled. Troy Vincent, Mark Sanchez, RG III, Christian Ponder, Nick Foles, and Brock Osweiler are among recent QBs who looked great early on but then crashed and burned, and turned out to be not much better than Day 3 picks. If the starting QB goes down, it's likely curtains for most teams' playoff hopes unless the team is especially talented and extremely lucky. Since there's not enough QB talent to go around, expecting to find a starter from among unattached vets is simply fantasy. Teams are better off rolling the dice and going with an unknown youngster who at least might be half way decent for part of season than wasting time with a failed starter.

Most 2017 HS grads will retire from jobs/careers in fields that don't exist -- and probably aren't even thought of -- today. Think of how cell phones have changed since the 1990s when they were big, clunky "car phones". Think how much more sophisticated cell phones have become in just the last five years -- and all the people who work designing/creating/supporting them. Yes. If the gas company wants to run a gas line across your property, they have to get an easement.

I think that you are seriously under-estimating the speed at which technology moves. It's unlikely to happen in the next decade, but it might very well happen before 2040. Consider that the first manned flight in an airplane, the Wright Brothers' 1903 Kitty Hawk flight, occurred in 1903, and that within twenty years, airplanes were already in use by the military and for carrying mail. In 1927, Charles Lindberg fly non-stop across the Atlantic, and within 30 years, the Soviets launched Sputnik, the first artificial satellite. Within less than 12 years of that, Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. The technology for powering hyperloops already exists. Tunnel building technology has largely been perfected ... nobody thought the Chunnel (Channel Tunnel under the English Channel) was possible when it was proposed because building a tunnel under water is much more difficult than building under ground but it's been open since 1994. What will hold it up is acquiring the land (or rights of way) and legal challenges.

Either 9 wins and a playoff spot or 10 or more wins even without the playoffs (because sometimes poop happens because of tie-breaking rules). The Bills have accomplished neither in this century so this would be a major accomplishment. I am expecting neither, however.

That makes two of us.

The last time I looked, the Buffalo Bills drafted EJ Manuel in the first round in 2013, which is just a tad bit more recent that 2004. Tthe only other first round QB they've taken since 1970 was Jim Kelly in 1983. Todd Collins (1995), Matt Kofler (1982), Gene Bradley (1980), and Dennis Shaw (1970) were the Bills only 2nd rounders. They drafted Trent Edwards (2007), Frank Reich (1985), Gary Marangi (1974) and Joe Ferguson (1973) in the 3rd round. The only two who were even close to being "franchise QBs" from that lot were Kelly and Ferguson. Reich was a competent backup QB on a strong team, but his stint in Carolina proved he wasn't starter material, either. Shaw was 1970 NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year, but like Vince Young, it was all downhill career-wise after that. The Bills inability to find QBs in the draft -- and their apparent disinterest in drafting them in the higher rounds -- isn't something that began with the departure of Bill Polian. It was a hallmark of the Bills under Ralph Wilson's ownership and the FOs that he employed. Of course, except for the Polian era, poor drafting was generally the rule rather than the exception for the Bills, but I'm sure that that's all changed now, so undoubtedly if the Bills tank, they'll draft a QB #1 and he'll turn out to be a combination of Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady ... at least he will in the alternative universe you inhabit.

Who, exactly, besides draft nuts, media mavens, and message board GM wannabes, would "some" include? Certainly not employed NFL GMs and HCs who want to remain employed because they're busy looking for players that can help them win in the upcoming season, not drooling over the high light videos of college kids who have 1+ years of college eligibility remaining. Scouts might be keeping tabs on some of the best looking ones, but no GM would decide to throw away a season just for chance to draft a specific college player. Too many kids who looked so great as juniors either get injured or don't perform up to snuff as seniors for an NFL team to commit to "tanking". Moreover, especially among QBs, too many supposedly "great" prospects who had excellent senior years have crashed and burned because they couldn't adapt to the pro game. Keep in mind that in order for a mid-pack team to deliberately tank, the FO would have to make the decision to do so even before the FA period and the NFL draft so that it could shed key talent via FA and trades. Then it would have to pass on talented players in the current year's draft who could play well as rookies in order to preserve its chance to pick in the first slot in next year's draft. Now, this might seem sensible to you, but it's simply an absurd scenario to most sensible people. Somehow, I think NFL GMs are more concerned with the collegiate players currently in the draft than with who might be in the draft the following year.

When I saw the thread title, the first thing I thought of was the IGY, but then I thought, "naw, only STEM nerds like me would have even heard of the IGY" ... unless it just popped up on your phone because you have a calendar app ... which probably wouldn't exist if the IGY (and Sputnik) hadn't fired up increased interest in the sciences way back then.

I retired April 1, 2016 and have never been tempted to look back even though I liked what I did and worked in a great organization with great supervisors and co-workers. Retirement is simply better.

In addition to Chautauqua Institute, Chautauqua County has Midway State Park on the northern side of the lake which is a former amusement park geared for younger children. There are a couple of tour boats on Chautauqua Lake as well as Long Point State Park for swimming. I believe the Stowe Ferry is still operating on week ends (it costs a donation to take your car across the lake) between Stowe, NY and Bemis Point which is a cute little tourist town on the other side. Jamestown has the Luci Desi Museum and the LuciFest which celebrate the life of comedienne Lucille Ball. Panama Rocks in the southern part of the county are huge boulders left from the erosion of an old seabed. They're not a hard hike at all as they're geared toward tourists not hikers. The western part of the county has a compact wine trail consisting of several wineries between Silver Creek and Westfield. Dunkirk has a wonderful harbor for strolling and couple of nice beaches: Pt Gratoit (pronounced Gratchit) and Wright Park. Pt Gratiot also has an historic lighthouse. Chautauqua County is primarily rural with a lot of Amish living in the southern and eastern parts of the county (Panama, Sherman, Cherry Creek, Randolph). These Amish communities also stretch into neighboring Cattaraugus County and northwest PA, and are much less commercial than the Amish communities around Lancaster, PA. The area abounds with farmers markets. The Chautauqua County Fair runs from July 24 through July 30. For shopping, entertainment, and more museums and beaches, Erie, PA is about 45 miles away via I-86. Check out the Erie Maritime Museum and Presque Isle State Park (which is free).

Why? Football doesn't exist separate from the real world. Players and coaches are people, so they're going to have the same issues as other people. The big difference is that NFLers have more talent (and probably more money) than Joe Average, and people are interested in what they do, who they are, etc.

The operative word here is "should be". In many places in this country, being gay can be uncomfortable and sometimes dangerous, and those places are not necessarily the ones that come to mind when you think of homophobia. Furthermore, while younger people tend to care less about whether somebody is gay than many older people, some are much worse. That it's easier for gays now than it was even a decade ago doesn't mean they're home free. Very well said. Race. sexual orientation, religion, national origin, gender, even physical or mental handicaps can all be fodder for individuals energized by hatred.

I'm skeptical of the Bills "playing a long term game" this season simply because what they've done this season pretty much looks like what they've done in the past: fired a poor coach; hired a new one with, at best, modest NFL credentials; let an expensive proven DB walk and filled in his spot with a first round rookie; let other proven veterans leave and signed cheaper ones to replace them. So, to a lot of fans, it just looks like the same old, same old. Among the most frustrated, the idea of tanking to get the #1 pick seems a reasonable way to break the cycle. Realistically, the Bills aren't tanking for the #1 pick in 2018 but just doing what they've been doing for this entire century, although there's an outside chance that maybe they really do have a long term plan but the initial stages look similar to past actions. If, however, McDermott turns out to be a dud or if Taylor gets hurt or something similar happens, the Bills might very well wind up drafting in the top 3 or 5 of the draft, possibly even #1. That's no guarantee that there will be a QB worth taking at #1, though. If the Bills had had the #1 pick in the 2006, 2007, 2010 or 2013 draft, they still wouldn't have a franchise QB while if they'd drafted smarter in 2004 or 2012 they would, which seems to be the reality that the "tank for a QB" posters can't seem to understand. So, with the #1 pick, your 1 or 2 win team should trade down to amass more picks and pass on Bruce Smith or JJ Watt so the next year it can trade half those picks to trade up to grab Robert Griffin III? Brilliant! The teams that have started their runs to the Super Bowl using that strategy are too numerous to count!

Cleveland hasn't been a "mid-pack or better" team in at least a decade, and they've proven that bad ownership/FO incompetence practically guarantees failure in the draft even when picking high. How the hell can a team that won 3 games in 2015 and 1 in 2016 (and has had 1 season with more than 5 wins since 2007) be accused of "tanking" in 2017? Since 1999, the Browns have had the #1 pick in 1999, 2000, and 2017 plus they've traded away the #1 pick at least once (2016). They also drafted in the top three three more times and had two first round picks threes times and three first round picks once (2017). They've drafted 4 QBs in the first round: Tim Couch (1999), Brady Quinn (2007), Brandon Weeden (2012), and Johnny Manziel (2014), all busts. They had 5 first round picks in the 2014, 2015, and 2016 drafts but they still managed to win exactly 1 game in 2017. So much for the power of the draft to lift an incompetent organization even into the middle of the pack, and in case you didn't realize it, the Bills FO has proven to be only marginally better than the Browns.

That was primarily because Jauron wanted his small, undersized defenders to play like missiles, throwing themselves at bigger offensive players to stop them. It's simple physics. If a smaller body slams keeps slamming into larger bodies enough times, eventually the smaller body is going to break. Most of Jauron's LBs and some of his DLers weren't as big as the RBs they were supposed to stop, which was why a gang of Bills defenders would be dragged five yards downfield after the original tackle. Add to that the fact that Jauron was a true believer that work ethic trumped talent, and you have the recipe for an injury epidemic. Godamighty but I hated Jauron. Incompetence and stupidity have been the hallmark of many Bills HCs over the years, but you can forgive those failings. Jauron wasn't stupid, just rigidly wedded to a belief in the superiority of his own coaching philosophy despite years of evidence to the contrary.

Wilson was not "just getting lucky". Wilson was the victim of the insistence of NFL GMs that "bigger is better" so a short QB has no chance. If Wilson had been 6'3" or so, he'd have gone #2 after Luck. And Luck's "sure thing" status was fueled by the media hype machine that had been saying he was the next great QB for three years before he was drafted. Furthermore, Luck hasn't proven to be "the next great QB". He was great as a rookie and sophomore QB but he's making many of the same mistakes now as he did in 2013 indicating that he's not improved professionally since his sophomore year. QBs like Newton, Wilson, Tannehill, Cousins, and Dalton (all drafted in 2011 and 2012) have all improved significantly more than Luck in the four or five years they've been in the league. Nobody is arguing that the top QB prospects are almost always to be found in first round, and statistically, mostly in the first three picks, but the idea of deliberately sabotaging a team's season in order to chase a particular draft pick is nonsensical. First off, in order for a mid-pack or better team to land the first draft pick by tanking, they would have to do something blatant like literally selling off their best players or firing their coaching staff during TC. It would be the kind of move that would likely bring in the federal government, something that would be an anathema to the NFL. For a bottom feeder team to tank, what makes you think a team that couldn't get it right for years suddenly picks the right guy? In the 1999 draft, the Browns had the #1 pick, and with unerring skill, they picked Tim Couch over Donovan McNabb. After a 10 win season in 2002, the Niners sank into incompetence that lasted until 2011. They had the #1 draft pick in 2005 and took Alex Smith over Aaron Rodgers. In 2007, the hapless Raiders took JaMarcus Russell when they could have had Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas, Adrian Peterson or Patrick Willis. Perennially bad teams in the salary cap era are bad because they've perfected their own brand of incompetence, and it's not something they can turn on and off at will. Who the hell cares how many QBs go in the first round? What counts is that the one your team picks is successful. Five QBs went in round 1 in 1999, and only Donovan McNabb (#2) turned out to be a franchise QB. Of the three first round QBs in 2002, none were franchise QBs. Of the four in 2003, only Carson Palmer the #1 pick was any good. The same happened in 2011 with Cam Newton. Of the three QBs taken in the first round in 2006 and 2009, only 1 from each class were decent. The only year in the last 30 with more than 2 successful QBs from the first round was 2004. Of course, that was the year that the Bills chose to trade back into the first round to take JP Losman. As I said, bottom feeder teams perfect their own brand of incompetence. Right. Since the Bills "re-upped" just fine after they picked fourth in 2001 and third in 2011, I have every confidence that they will make the right picks after tanking in 2017. Would you also be interested in a slightly used but recently rehabbed bridge over Chautauqua Lake that I have for sale?

Something we agree on!!!!

And that usually happens unless he comes to a team that really lacks the talent to compete or gets hit with injuries to key personnel. Good coaching and a stout defense can get a team pretty far as witness both Minnesota and Houston have repeatedly made the playoffs with virtually no NFL caliber QBing. The Bills lacked both last season. I expect a better defense this year simply because last year's was so putrid, but the closer it resembles 2014, the happier I'll be with the coaching staff. I will be disappointed if McDermott can't coach this Bills team to 8-10 wins if key players are available for most of the season. Getting 10 wins, even if they miss out on the WC, would be huge (which has happened to teams in the past). It would be the Bills' first double digit win season in this century.