Shaw66

I'm late to this thread, I know. I really didn't care that Benjamin got cut, and I really don't care if he succeeds in KC. If he does, it will be good for him, and he doesn't seem like a bad guy. He got a lot of hate around here because of his performance, but he's just guy who couldn't get it done here. He's gone to a great offensive coach with an offense that won't ask him to do a lot, and he may make plays for the Chiefs. I don't care because because whether he might succeed someplace else, McB decided that he wasn't going to succeed in Buffalo. Better to let others have a shot and reload next season. And I don't fault McB for getting him in the first place. There's no question they're figuring a lot out as they go. They both are doing new, much more complicated jobs in Buffalo than they'd ever had before. And even the very best coaches and GMs in the business don't get personnel decisions correct all the time. McB are in a process of learning themselves, just as much as they expect their players to be in a process. Frankly, since they figured out that Allen was the guy to get and then got him to the Bills, they can have half a dozen mistakes like Benjamin and they're still ahead of the game.

I'm 6 and a half hours out, too, and I do it 5 or 6 times each season. And I've gone to games solo. I have a casual relationship with a few folks around me, but certainly pre- and post-game and even much of the game I'm alone. I like it. I actually find conversations during the game are distracting. I like just watching and thinking about the game. And although I'd rather do the drive with company, I don't mind going solo. Sometimes I listen to a book or to music. I make a few phone calls. On the way home I think and rethink aspects of the game.

Thanks. Tickets are gone.

I have two tickets for the Jets game I'm giving away. PM me if you're interested. You need a smart phone with email on it so that I can email the tickets to you.

This comparison to recent Bill's QBs is a good way to look at it. He already certainly is past where Manuel ever was. He's already better than Losman ever was. Losman made more mistakes in his final season than Allen is making in his first. I wouldn't be too quick to say his floor is Taylor and Fitzpatrick is. I tend to agree, but those guys were pretty consistent veterans and Allen still could stumble.

I agree the new guys are taking over. And in the group of new guys, there are a half dozen with the potential to be in the top 10 all time discussion. Goff, Wentz, Mayfield, Darnold, Allen, Mahomes. Guys with arms and moxie. Not saying any or all will be top 10, but those guys and maybe one or two more have the potential.

I'm way up the curve. I'm trying to curb my enthusiasm. I think Allen is a star. I don't even include his running ability in my evaluation. Poise, pocket presence, command of the huddle, scrambling and escapability, and throwing ability are all first rate. He's smart and eager to learn. I think he's the best of his class and actually can be the best of his generation. And I'm back on the McBeane bandwagon. First because they were smart enough to identify Allen and find a way to get him. Next because they've created place where players want to play. Third, because McDermott builds sound defenses. Fourth, because they keep changing until they get it right. And I'm liking Daboll. But.mostly because of Allen. I'm excited.

That's a great perspective. Thanks.

Love your stuff. Thanks. A couple of comments. I said about 6 weeks ago that if Allen had reported to the Chiefs camp in June and Mahomes wasn't there, Allen would be having the success Mahomes is having. Now, I know that's a bit of an overstatement, but really, what is it that Allen isn't doing that we'd like? Not much. Mahomes is scrambling and hitting wide open receivers. Allen can do that. I agree about getting more speed on the field at the receiver position making a difference. But I also think that Daboll is starting to hit his stride in terms of the modern NFL offense. I think he has a QB who can deliver the ball, and he's seeing now how he can use the more modern route techniques if he has speed guys out there. Let's face, the chances are that there isn't an all-pro receiver on the roster right now. All-Pros are nice to have, but what's been needed is route design, quality route running by guys with some speed, and a QB who can deliver the ball. We're starting to see all three. And pass protection. It's important to remember that all of this goes together. When the running game is working (albeit even if it's your QB running) it changes the pass rush. When the pass rush changes, the pass protection gets easier. The offensive line hasn't suddenly gotten good, although I'm sure they're improving as the season progresses. jWhat's happened is the whole offense has gotten better, which tends to keep the defense a bit out of sync. It feeds on itself.

Clay's feet are always in quicksand. He isn't a quick twitch player. That's why the throw needed to be better I'd you want to win. Your qb isn't throwing to a hypothetical player we would like to have. He's throwing to real live player who has limitations.

It's about big picture, not individual decisions.

Yeah. I learn a lot about football when people are talking about the details and willing to change their opinion as the discussion progresses. There's a good discussion in another thread about whether Foster didn't run his route correctly on the deep ball.

I love watching McDermott and Beane operate. They have no fear. In particular, they have no fear of mistakes. They make decisions, like acquiring Benjamin, and they are not afraid to admit that it didn't work. I also love how they don't waste time. They want a young team, they want to build through the draft. They don't want old players around unless they are really, really good players or leaders. If you're old and not a leader or a star, you're occupying space that, in McBeane's mind, is better occupied by a young guy. Get the old guy out of here NOW, so we can get a young guy in and see what he can do. They're going to keep changing the mix of players every chance they get. As they've said many times, they're all about getting better at every position, all the time. McBeane's mindset changed when the game ended Sunday. The Bills have four preseason games left in 2018. These games are the opportunity to see and evaluate players, and the Bills have seen and evaluated Benjamin and Holmes as much as they needed.

Someone else commented on this, and I think this is the right answer. We don't know the future, but assume for this discussion it's three years from now, Allen is acknowledged as a true star in the league, and Foster is his deep threat, like Marvin Harrison was for Peyton. What are the announcers going to be saying about them? They're going to talk about all the time Allen and Foster spent after practice, working on communication on all their favorite routes. For example, they're going to be saying that Foster learned not to look for the ball too early on that route, that Allen learned to lead Foster one way or another. Whatever the details, they're going to be saying that Allen and Foster had a much deeper understanding of what each is going to try to do on the play. You're right, maybe they'll never get it. But it's that kind of special relationship that develops over time that makes certain passer-receiver combinations so deadly. If Allen and Foster are completing that pass two years from now, it will because they've learned to do some little things AND to expect the other guy to do some little things.

Exactly. The guy is great. It's so exciting having him as the Bills' QB. He has little things to learn, like you've said. I'm sure there are a hundred more, or a thousand. That's what experience does. No one expects him to get all of these little things right in his rookie year. His rookie year is to show he deserves to be on the field, and he's done that, for sure. His rookie year is the beginning of the process of mastering first the big details, then the smaller and smaller details. We're seeing that happen - every week the guy looks better than he looked the week before.

Absolutely right. Let's face it. This season iis Allen's opportunity to get used to the NFL, to raise his game from the college level to the pro level. That's why it's been so important to get him on the field. The things he's seeing and doing are teaching him what it takes to succeed in the NFL. 2018 is, in a sense, the "preseason" for his career. Think of all the things he knows now that he didn't know a year ago. He's way up the learning curve. Starting in the 2019 offseason, he and the coaching staff and his receiving corps are going to be working on the little details that make the difference between OK and great. It's clear he already has the big picture; next season he's going to be refining his skills. Next year he's going to be the number 1 guy, getting a lot of reps with the receivers he's going to see on the field next season. I'd guess that if there was a redraft today, and all the GMs had all the film of the 2018 season available to them, Josh Allen would go to Cleveland. I'd guess that coaches are looking at the film of Allen and recognizing that, however many great ones may be just at the beginning of their careers (Mahomes, Goff, Wentz, Mayfield, Wentz are the current favorites), Allen is definitely one of them.

Thanks for the data. It's pretty persuasive. Amazing that Brady was 13% on lonSo I'd say you're right, Brady wouldn't have made the throw that was necessary. You say you're misunderstanding me, and maybe you and others are. Here's how I feel about it. The only stat that matters is wins. The QB is the most important player on the field, and his job, like it or not, is to deliver wins. Fourth quarter drives, big plays when his team needs them. Nothing matters except wins. It doesn't matter if you've completed 25 in a row; if you need number 26 to win the game and you don't get it, the QB hasn't done all that he needs to do. Allen, from the reports I've seen and the portion of the game I saw, had a game that once again showed that he's a special talent. On his final play, he showed that he's a special talent. But Allen had one more thing he had to do in the game, and that was stop and set his feet before he threw. He didn't do that, and as a result underthrew the ball. I'd guess if you asked him he'd tell you he underthrew it by five yards - that is, he intended to lead Clay to a spot directly on line with the throw he made, but farther toward the sideline and 4-5 yards deeper in the end zone. He didn't make the throw he needed or wanted, and he missed by a lot. . It was a catchable ball, for sure. Any ball that hits the receiver in the hands in the NFL is a catchable ball. So Allen gave his teammate a chance to make a play, which means that Allen did the minimum on the the play. However, his job is to win the game, not to do the minimum. Compare this throw to the throw up the left sideline to Jones that was called incomplete after review. Now, that was a much tougher catch than Clay's, but an NFL receiver is supposed to make that catch. He ran his route, he made his cut, the ball was delivered in a good spot for him to make the catch. THAT was the kind of throw that wins football games, but Jones couldn't come up with it. Think about Clay. He is not one of the great tight ends. He's had more than his share of drops. He's an all-purpose tight end, not primarily a receiving tight end. He'd just run around for about 8 seconds at the end of a long, hard game. He made a lousy break on the ball, made an awkward attempt to get his hands on the ball, and as a result needed to make a pure hands catch on the way to ground. This wasn't Stevie Johnson in stride dropping a perfect throw in the end zone to win the game. Clay isn't any place close to being a number 1 receiver, he hasn't ever been known for consistently plucking balls out of the air or off the ground, this wasn't a play where Clay was the primary receiver and came open in stride as the play was designed. That was a low-probability catch for him. I'm not defending Clay, and I'm not saying he couldn't and shouldn't have caught it. What I am saying is that looking back on Josh Allen's career, if he is going to be a great QB, he's going to win those games, not have spectacular highlights from games he lost. He did a lot of great things in that game, but unless that final pass is completed, Josh Allen didn't have a great game. That throw five yards deeper for a TD is part of Allen's all-time highlight reel; the only highlight reel the actual play makes is the highlight of greatest Bills' disappointments, along with Stevie's drop and Terence McGee's kickoff return against the Saints. Allen will do better next time. That is, he'll be great, and the Bills will win.

Really? I guess I never thought about it, but I'd guess that Brees for sure and Brady probably can. And 55 was all that was necessary. But maybe you're right. Here;s Brees throwing 55. Brady throwing 62.

Thanks for the info. As for your view on Allen, I agree completely. I'm really excited.

Hapless is honest and straight forward. What he did was explain to me why everyone was so excited. And, as usual, he was right.

Thanks. I did say that. Could have been said better. But I was also completely clear that Clay should have caught it. I think Clay is unimportant. You and I agree that Allen should have better, needs to be better on plays like that. The whole game is on the QB, every game, every day. The QBs know that. It's the job they want. You can bet that Allen has replayed it 100 times in his head, thinking about what he should have done. And you can bet he's spending no time thinking about Clay. Yes, Allen made a play that was good enough to win the game and his tight end didn't. But Allen didn't make play he should have.

Absolutely. He has shown great pocket awareness, and I think he certainly can know whether people are around him. Did anyone listen to McDermott's press conference yesterday? For a loss, he was amazingly positive about Allen. He kept saying that Allen has grown, and he can do this and do that. I think we're looking at a star. I don't think there's anything holding him back.

I didn't put it all on Allen. This is about the third or fourth time I've said that. A quality NFL receiver catches that ball. I don't care about Clay. As I said, all that matter is the QB, and Allen has to learn to do exactly what you described He has to learn that when he has time, he has to relax and use the time to put himself in position to throw. He was tired and put everything he had into it, which probably explains why the throw was so ugly. For me, right now it's all about the future. I want Allen to be a HOF QB and he looks like one. Except a HOF QB wins that game with a good throw. Yes, Clay should have caught it. Everything about how he reacted to the ball was wrong, and even so a guy with reliable hands would have caught it. He didn't catch it. Yes, if you care about the outcome of the game, maybe he was the goat. I don't care about Clay. He isn't going to improve, and he isn't going to be on the team in a few months or a year or two. Clay's not going to win any Super Bowls for the Bills. He could be on a Super Bowl winning team, but he isn't going to win it. Allen is, if he can learn things about how to settle down and make a good throw when he has time.

After I wrote this I saw his postgame interview, and he did in fact say he was tired. I'm sure that's part of the reason, maybe even the sole reason, his throw was so ugly. It was uglier by a factor of 3 than any other throw we've seen him make. Still, if he was tired, he has to make a better throw. He wasn't running for his life. He had been running for his life, but he had escaped. He had plenty of room. He threw it across his body because he didn't use the time he had to get his body set, and he threw it 50 yards, not 60 yards. You ask a good question about Clay. What WAS he doing back there. And again, he should have caught it anyway. But Allen should have thrown it better. I don't care about Clay - he won't be here in three years. But Allen will be, and I want him winning ball games for the Bills.

Disagree. Clay had plenty of room to the sideline - Allen could have led Clay there - he was already running in that direction, and still not have forced Clay to make a fancy two-toes-inside-the-line. Hell, he could have just put more air under the throw he DID make, so Clay would have had more time to get there. There was plenty of room. And Allen agrees. He said the ball didn't come out of his hand correctly, something went wrong. The clear implication was that he had a much better place to put the ball than he did. Brady never would have gotten there. Brees maybe. But I was talking just about the throw, not the scramble. Any of those guys who got there and had the time to set his feet would definitely have made the throw. It was 50 yards in the air, and they all can throw it at least that far. All that was needed was a fly ball for the receiver to settle under.