Shaw66

Maybe. It took Duke years and a lot of failure before he got himself turned around. I've always thought he chose Buffalo because he knew that McDermott preached exactly the stuff the Duke has learned to become a competitor. They're made for each other.

Which is one of the reasons I expect him to make the team.

Those draft comparisons are deadly. I hate them. As I've said often, I think Zay's problem is that there isn't anything he is especially good at. He's a good receiver but great at nothing.

That's well said. Zay isn't a bad receiver.

Just thought people would like to see what NFL.Com draft tracker said about Duke. It's interesting.

% of targets caught is different from drops. Being targeted by Bridgewater doesn't mean you can catch it.

You may be right. We will see, because he is going to play in the league.

Yhanks. That makes some sense. It may be that playing regularly he will be shut down by NFL corners. (It doesn't mean much to say he would be shut down by Tre or Gilmore, because virtually every number 2 receiver in the league would be shut down by them.) But I think you don't appreciate who Williams is. He was five star recruit coming out of high school. He competed well in the SEC before his career blew up. He then turned over a new leaf and got serious about football. He played in the CFL for two seasons, went for 700 yards the first season and over 1500 the second season. In other words, once he figured it out, he blew up the league. That is, his career has just taken off. He isnt just some other CFL guy. I really don't know if Duke is better than Zay. I think he may be better right now, but maybe not. But I think Zay has had enough time to show us what his upside is, and I'm pretty sure Duke's upside is higher.

Thanks. Duke apparently ran 4.7. I never thought Zay had much speed, but he looked pretty speedy in last week's game. Still , I don't think Zay has good deep speed, and if you're not a deep threat, then speed differences aren't too important. We will see in the next couple of days.

Brown, Beasley and Williams each has had significant accomplishments in their pro careers, which suggests some level of talent. Jones has not. Leading the 2018 Bills, 31st in the league in passing, with 600 receiving yards is not a significant accomplishment and does not suggest any level of talent.

If it says Fantasy Football, I move on. Real football has very little to do with individuals. It's about teams.

Last season is irrelevant. He was the number receiver on a team with nobody else. This season he is competing with two guys who have been to the pro bowl and one guy who led the league in Canada. It's a whole new ball game. The Bills are upgrading their talent all across the roster. Good players are going to get cut or traded, and it will happen again next season. It just so happens that Zay may be one of those players. So would you cut Duke, who clearly does NOT have the problems you see with Zay?

That's how I view him. Frankly getting traded or cut might be the wake up call he needs. Duke got his wake up call in college and then when he couldn't stick in the NFL. He got focuses and got determined. Zay sometimes seems like he expects it will come easy. It seems that Duke is showing him the kind of commitment it takes to make it in the NFL.

You see, the problem is right there in number 1. "High picks should get three seasons." I agree that it often takes receivers three seasons to become full-fledged, but in the NFL and particularly in McDermott land, nobody GETS anything. You EARN your roster spot. How do you earn it? By being better now and by projecting better. As for projecting better, that is Duke hands down. As you say, he hasn't had a chance to learn to play against NFL defenses. Zay has had two seasons, less injury time. And two training camps. He is way ahead of Duke in that regard, so we should expect much more improvement from Duke than from Zay. So who is better right now? Tough to say. I'd bet Zay is the better route runner, just by virtue of his experience in the system. Duke has better hands, no doubt. Speed is about even, I think. Neither is a burner, but I'd give Zay the edge. Blocking, probably give the edge to Duke. And then, since they're competing in McDermott land, there is heart, character and competitiveness. Allen and Barkley both have commented, almost in awe, about Duke's "hunger." Duke wants it, first thing in the morning and last thing at night. He fights for the ball like it's a loaf of bread and he hasn't eaten in two weeks. Nobody has ever said anything like that about Zay. So, sure, it would be nice to "give" your high pick three seasons, but he only gets those three seasons if he is good enough. Unfortunately for Zay, in the off season the Bills acquired Beasley, Brown and Williams. Zay will definitely get his three seasons, but there is a real chance that the third will be in a different uniform.

I'm having anxiety a out game one. I'm going to the game and that J-E-T-S cheer makes me anxious.

I'm on the outside, so what do I know. But Duke led the league in the CFL. Zay's had two years to figure out the NFL and never has shown that he could be more than a decent number 2. Compare Zay after two seasons to Robert Woods after two. I think there's no comparison. So, yes, Zay could improve, but I thyink the up side argument is that Duke has it and Zay probably doesn't. Duke's already shown better hands than Zay. I think the future is probably on Duke's side. If you have to let one go, I'd bet on Duke's future.

Well, I actually thought Zay's looked better this year than last. But I've said all along is that Zay's problem is that he isn't excellent at anything. He's just solid all around. I'll give you an example based on what you just said. You said he won't have so much attention from defenses this year, so he will get better matchups. Well, what that really means is that he isn''t great at getting separation. That's okay, most guys aren't. Well, some people here complained that DUKE isn't good at separating. Fine, so neither one is. If you have a guy who can't separate, do you want that guy to have Zay's hands or Duke's? No brainer. Do you want McKenzie's shiftiness and speed or Zay's? No brainer. One more thing. Watch McD's press conference from Monday. He's asked about Foster and he's asked about Zay. It may just be me, but it sure seemed liked McD was thinking (not exactly saying), that both of them have showed some things and need to show more. He doesn't want to say they're on the bubble or worse, but it seems like he was thinking that.

Me too. Watched those videos and thought he was an elite pass catcher. I think he could be a Hines Ward. He has hands, he has heart, he hits people.

Of course, we don't know what's going to happrn, but I'm with you. Listen to the recent I interviews with Allen and Barkley. They both talk about how hungry he is. He stands out on a team of competitors as hungry. That says something, and that's what McD likes best. I expect that both qbs are telling McD they want him. People fall in love with ideas, like the idea of Zay Jones as a prolific pass catcher. That's nice, but he hasn't lived up to that idea. What people should be doing asking themselves whether in the past two years they've seen Zay make touchdown catches that even approach the difficulty of the two TD catches Duke has made this preseason.

I think this is exactly right. And add Hines Ward to the list. Most receivers can't get separation. A few have great moves, a few have great speed. Most have neither and they get open by being the guy on the field who happens to have the route that attacks the weakness in the defense. There is no substitute for great hands and ability to win fights for the ball. It appears Duke has those skills. I think that ability, plus the fact that his determination and competitiveness, traits McD loves, are through the roof , mean he will make the team.

I wouldn't take a third, but I'd take a second.

I haven't read the thread, and I have no information. But when I hear Clowney, multiple teams and the Bills, what I'd like to see is Clowney goes someplace else, Shady goes to Houston and the Bills get somone's first. Clowney doesn't strike me as a McD guy. Love Shady, but if I could get a first for him, I'd do it.

I don't like it, but I think I will prefer it once I get used to it. It gets you closer to the action.

I've been reading your posts, and disagreeing with all of them. This one really goes to the heart of the matter. You have this exactly backward. You don't learn the rules, then learn to break them. You break the rules and suffer the consequences. That's how you learn. You think Josh doesn't know it's dangerous to throw late over the middle? Of course he knows, just like a kid know he's not supposed to play with matches. If the kid doesn't ever play with matches, he'll never learn how to use matches. If Josh never throws late over the middle, he will never learn when to do it and when not. Making that throw in preseason is exactly the time to make that throw. He's a second year guy trying to figure out what he's seeing in the defensive backfield. By making that throw when he did, he learned something. Second year qbs are going to make mistakes. That's how they learn. The difference between good and great, in this sense, is this: the good QB is good because he never throws INTs over the middle late, and he does that by never throwing over the middle late. The great QB is great because he knows when to over the middle late and when not to. He only learns when he can do it by trying it and failing sometimes.

Luck retiring means the Bills defense was better two weeks ago, because they stopped the Colts #1 qb, not a backup!