Shaw66

Thanks. For me it was how they looked, totally in control. They knew what they were doing. It was umpressive.

I didn't say anything about the future. I said the defense was very good against the Colts and gave my reasons Why do I have to pump my brakes about that?

D wasn't good enough last season, so it had to improve. There are a lot of things that could go wrong that would cause the defense to be worse. Oliver doesn't take over the 3 tech right away, Lawson doesn't improve, corners don't work out, Edmunds doesn't improve, Milano doesn't get back to his best form, etc. Just being rational about it, I thought a there were a lot of things that could help make the defense worse. Pluse, it's hard to improve in the NFL when you're already above average. But after watching, it doesn't appear that Edmunds or Oliver will be a problem. More importantly, though, is that it seemed not to matter who was playing; the front seven were tough in their gaps and the back seven always seemed to be where they needed to be to make the play. The message to me was "we got guys who can play every position the way it's supposed to be played."

It made me think of the Pat's defense. They're never out of position and always gang tackle. That's what I saw against the Colts. One is 43 and the other 34, bit both teams get after the ball.

I've gotta say, I've been holding my breath a bit about the defense. The prevailing view around has been it should be as good or better than last year. Having now watched the first half of the Colts game, I gotta say there was nothing to worry about. Great gap discipline - everyone was where he needed to be, every play. They won their share of one on ones, held their ground on most, rarely got beaten badly one on one. Two or three guys on every tackle. Only tight windows for the Colts QBs. It was stifling. I also have to agree with those who have commented on Edmunds. Quick, attacking, always in the right hole. THAT was good defense.

Wow, TK, that's great. Thanks.

All of this.

I agree with your assessment, but not your conclusion. It's nice to have the speed to outrun the defense, and Wade showed it. What is needed is the quickness to run between the tackles for five yards. The vision and change of direction. The recent Bills comparison is Fred Jackson and CJ Spiller. Spiller had the speed, but Jackson was by far the better back. McCoy doesn't have elite speed, but he's great in the hole. That's what Singletary showed, and that's reason to be excited about him. If Wade has the ability to do that, well, then he's a real find. We didn't get a chance to see that last night. What we saw was a good read, a decisive cut, and a great burst. Let's see him run between the tackles.

You're correct. He read it the way a good running back is supposed to read it. The speed was first-team NFL speed against third-team NFL defensive speed. It was eye-popping. As for Singletary, who doesn't have that speed, I thought it was a good outing. Frankly, his first few carries he looked like he didn't belong. (He also had one where he had NO hole.) But then he seemed to catch on, and he showed exactly what made him a third-round pick. He has the vision, quickness and change of direction that allows him to get the most out of small seams in the defense. He looks like he will have days where he will eat defenses alive with 5 to 15 yard runs. He's not going to outrun defenses like the truly elite backs, but he looks like he can do damage in a ball-possession offense.

Gunner I couldn't see the fame. thanks for your summary. It's really encouraging. Glad to hear Allen was better than his stats. Glad to hear what you said about Edminds and Oliver. Good sober comments on Singletary. Back to the process. Get better every day.

Hard to understand is the point. McD sees and knows things we don't.

That's great! I'd guess I'm around 120.

Keep paying those taxes. I need Medicare to keep me alive until the Bills win a Super Bowl.

i had to look it up. September 18, 1960. Home opener of the Bills' first season. War Memorial Stadium. Denver 27, Bills 21. I was 13. I went with a friend and his father. All I remember from the game was that the Bills lost and the Broncos wore black and white striped socks. The Bills were almost a novelty. No one expected them to be good, and everyone expected a minor league product that couldn't compare with the NFL. That game, and several of the Bills games that season, confirmed the expectations. All they had for players that first year were pretty weak NFL rejects and some mediocre rookies. The NFL rejects were guys who came out of retirement to try it in the new league, or guys who had been marginal in the NFL in the late 50s. But by '62 the Bills looked like a football team. They could compete.

Ten years from now we will look back at this picture and have many thoughts. One will be how young Josh is. Thanks to everyone for their contributions to these training camp threads. It's been a great composite picture.

It rarely was visual to me. It was as *though he was drawing random, unconnected lines on a blackboard.

I agree with this. That means, in my opinion, that Zay is good enough to be a regular contributor (notwithstanding that he's had a little difficulty holding on on occasion). But that isn't the question here. The question is Zay's future in Buffalo. He may be good enough to be a contributor, but better contributor may arise, and that puts Zay at risk.

Not that I listen that often, but I always thought Kelso was horrible. I got the sense that, as you say, he really knew his stuff. He understood the plays, especially the pass routes and coverages, and he understood the key elements of plays. His problem, so far as I was concerned, was that he couldn't distill what he knew into a couple of short simple sentences. He recited everything that happened - "this guy went here, then that guy went there, so the third guy could curl under while the QB was pumpfaking, and then the tackle slipped out but missed the block on the linebacker so the QB had to dump the ball off to McCoy for a two-yard gain." He simply didn't have professional level broadcasting skills.

I'll add this, too: We all know McD is big on character issues - competitor, teammate, determination to improve, etc. He evaluates everything about a guy, and we only see about 10%. McD knows, or thinks he knows, what kind of guy every one of his players is. None of us sees all the things he sees about Zay. What we DO see is Zay getting a lot of reps, and that makes it quite likely that Zay has the character McD wants. We also know that it often takes receivers two or three years to emerge. So give Zay that, too. Finally, we also know that Zay had Taylor throwing to him in his rookie year and a rookie QB in his second year. This is the first season he has a guy with talent and experience throwing. Put it all together, and although it may be true that he might not make the team, it's also true that he might be solidly the number two wideout beside Brown with no one else coming close. I'm finding I'm not overly interested in training camp, other than the injury reports. I want to see performance in real games, and that's still six weeks away.

I agree on that too. I think receivers are like running backs; once you get past the elite players, there are a lot of decent ones available. Zay looked like one of those last year - not a guy who will ever threaten to be a number 1, but a guy who can play a role on the field for you. Having said that, I'll also say this: I wasn't surprised that Belichick took Hogan and made him useful for a couple of years; I'm not so sure Belichick would want Zay. Hogan had intensity that I don't see in Zay, and intensity is what Belichick, and McD, want. Who are the guys McD really loves? Murphy and Gore, guys who are spilling their guts from the first day of training camp. Zay's never struck me as that type.

Those are all fair points, too. I'm not at camp, so I don't know who has a legit shot at the third spot. The think is, to win the third spot, all you have to do is be better than Zay, and no one is saying Zay is some kind of world beater. Being better than Zay isn't a really high standard. If you have speed, hands or after-the-catch ability, you're already in the hunt.

I've posted a lot in this thread, so I'm only repeating myself. 1. I think the bolded language is absolutely true. Zay has been nothing special in any way. Not bad last year, but nothing special. Not great speed, not a great possession receiver, not great hands, not great after the catch, not great anything. Not bad, but nothing about Zay stands out. That works against him. 2. If you're a receiver and you aren't in the top 3 receivers in the room, you're expendable. You aren't going to get a lot of snaps, and the next guy in line is probably essentially as good as you are. For Zay's roster spot to be secure, he has to make the top 3. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Today, August 2nd, he is not a lock to do it. Beasley appears to be a lock, and Brown does, too. Andre Roberts has flashed some ability lately - he's faster, better after the catch. So Roberts is one threat to Zay. There's been buzz about Ray Ray; he's another threat. 3. If you're not in the top three, you may lose out even though you're the next best receiver on the team. The problem with being number 4 is that you don't get a lot of snaps, so you have very little impact on winning and losing. Another receiver who isn't as good as you but who shows greater potential than you might may make the team ahead of you. So Zay has to worry about Ray Ray, McKenzie, Williams, maybe even Sills, not because they're better now, but because they look like they'll be better in six weeks or even six months. 4. Alpha's point always has been not that Zay gets cut, but that he gets traded. No one seems to disagree that the receiver room is a lot more crowded this year than last. No standouts, but a lot of guys who right now look like they can contribute. So someone has to go, and Beane probably will be looking for trade bait. It could be Zay, it could be Foster. I'm not saying Zay's bad. I'm saying if he doesn't win a top-3 position, his roster spot is at risk.

Good points. What does excite me about what's been happening is the competition. I was definitely one of those who dismissed Ray Ray. And McKenzie. And this takes us back, again, to Alpha's prediction about Zay Jones. If Beane wants to deal someone this summer, two guys coming out of the pack of after thoughts make it possible that Foster or Zay get dealt for a pick. Whatever happens, it's nice to think that there are multiple makers fighting for spots.

I'm not in camp, so I really can't say anything definitive. But I will say this: Camp isnt games, and preseason games aren't regular season games, so I'm not getting excited about anyone yet. It seems like the Bills have a lot of depth. We will find out in a couple of months whether they have 22 guys who can make plays when real bullets are flying. Ford was starting and now he isnt. Oliver wasn't starting and now he is. Ray Ray is flashing. Josh is good, then not so much. I can wait.

A friend of mine sent me this: (I think it's from the Charlotte paper covering the Panthers, the Observer). Gettleman and Beane?