Shaw66

That's great! I'd guess I'm around 120.

Keep paying those taxes. I need Medicare to keep me alive until the Bills win a Super Bowl.

i had to look it up. September 18, 1960. Home opener of the Bills' first season. War Memorial Stadium. Denver 27, Bills 21. I was 13. I went with a friend and his father. All I remember from the game was that the Bills lost and the Broncos wore black and white striped socks. The Bills were almost a novelty. No one expected them to be good, and everyone expected a minor league product that couldn't compare with the NFL. That game, and several of the Bills games that season, confirmed the expectations. All they had for players that first year were pretty weak NFL rejects and some mediocre rookies. The NFL rejects were guys who came out of retirement to try it in the new league, or guys who had been marginal in the NFL in the late 50s. But by '62 the Bills looked like a football team. They could compete.

Ten years from now we will look back at this picture and have many thoughts. One will be how young Josh is. Thanks to everyone for their contributions to these training camp threads. It's been a great composite picture.

It rarely was visual to me. It was as *though he was drawing random, unconnected lines on a blackboard.

I agree with this. That means, in my opinion, that Zay is good enough to be a regular contributor (notwithstanding that he's had a little difficulty holding on on occasion). But that isn't the question here. The question is Zay's future in Buffalo. He may be good enough to be a contributor, but better contributor may arise, and that puts Zay at risk.

Not that I listen that often, but I always thought Kelso was horrible. I got the sense that, as you say, he really knew his stuff. He understood the plays, especially the pass routes and coverages, and he understood the key elements of plays. His problem, so far as I was concerned, was that he couldn't distill what he knew into a couple of short simple sentences. He recited everything that happened - "this guy went here, then that guy went there, so the third guy could curl under while the QB was pumpfaking, and then the tackle slipped out but missed the block on the linebacker so the QB had to dump the ball off to McCoy for a two-yard gain." He simply didn't have professional level broadcasting skills.

I'll add this, too: We all know McD is big on character issues - competitor, teammate, determination to improve, etc. He evaluates everything about a guy, and we only see about 10%. McD knows, or thinks he knows, what kind of guy every one of his players is. None of us sees all the things he sees about Zay. What we DO see is Zay getting a lot of reps, and that makes it quite likely that Zay has the character McD wants. We also know that it often takes receivers two or three years to emerge. So give Zay that, too. Finally, we also know that Zay had Taylor throwing to him in his rookie year and a rookie QB in his second year. This is the first season he has a guy with talent and experience throwing. Put it all together, and although it may be true that he might not make the team, it's also true that he might be solidly the number two wideout beside Brown with no one else coming close. I'm finding I'm not overly interested in training camp, other than the injury reports. I want to see performance in real games, and that's still six weeks away.

I agree on that too. I think receivers are like running backs; once you get past the elite players, there are a lot of decent ones available. Zay looked like one of those last year - not a guy who will ever threaten to be a number 1, but a guy who can play a role on the field for you. Having said that, I'll also say this: I wasn't surprised that Belichick took Hogan and made him useful for a couple of years; I'm not so sure Belichick would want Zay. Hogan had intensity that I don't see in Zay, and intensity is what Belichick, and McD, want. Who are the guys McD really loves? Murphy and Gore, guys who are spilling their guts from the first day of training camp. Zay's never struck me as that type.

Those are all fair points, too. I'm not at camp, so I don't know who has a legit shot at the third spot. The think is, to win the third spot, all you have to do is be better than Zay, and no one is saying Zay is some kind of world beater. Being better than Zay isn't a really high standard. If you have speed, hands or after-the-catch ability, you're already in the hunt.

I've posted a lot in this thread, so I'm only repeating myself. 1. I think the bolded language is absolutely true. Zay has been nothing special in any way. Not bad last year, but nothing special. Not great speed, not a great possession receiver, not great hands, not great after the catch, not great anything. Not bad, but nothing about Zay stands out. That works against him. 2. If you're a receiver and you aren't in the top 3 receivers in the room, you're expendable. You aren't going to get a lot of snaps, and the next guy in line is probably essentially as good as you are. For Zay's roster spot to be secure, he has to make the top 3. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Today, August 2nd, he is not a lock to do it. Beasley appears to be a lock, and Brown does, too. Andre Roberts has flashed some ability lately - he's faster, better after the catch. So Roberts is one threat to Zay. There's been buzz about Ray Ray; he's another threat. 3. If you're not in the top three, you may lose out even though you're the next best receiver on the team. The problem with being number 4 is that you don't get a lot of snaps, so you have very little impact on winning and losing. Another receiver who isn't as good as you but who shows greater potential than you might may make the team ahead of you. So Zay has to worry about Ray Ray, McKenzie, Williams, maybe even Sills, not because they're better now, but because they look like they'll be better in six weeks or even six months. 4. Alpha's point always has been not that Zay gets cut, but that he gets traded. No one seems to disagree that the receiver room is a lot more crowded this year than last. No standouts, but a lot of guys who right now look like they can contribute. So someone has to go, and Beane probably will be looking for trade bait. It could be Zay, it could be Foster. I'm not saying Zay's bad. I'm saying if he doesn't win a top-3 position, his roster spot is at risk.

Good points. What does excite me about what's been happening is the competition. I was definitely one of those who dismissed Ray Ray. And McKenzie. And this takes us back, again, to Alpha's prediction about Zay Jones. If Beane wants to deal someone this summer, two guys coming out of the pack of after thoughts make it possible that Foster or Zay get dealt for a pick. Whatever happens, it's nice to think that there are multiple makers fighting for spots.

I'm not in camp, so I really can't say anything definitive. But I will say this: Camp isnt games, and preseason games aren't regular season games, so I'm not getting excited about anyone yet. It seems like the Bills have a lot of depth. We will find out in a couple of months whether they have 22 guys who can make plays when real bullets are flying. Ford was starting and now he isnt. Oliver wasn't starting and now he is. Ray Ray is flashing. Josh is good, then not so much. I can wait.

A friend of mine sent me this: (I think it's from the Charlotte paper covering the Panthers, the Observer). Gettleman and Beane?

Yeah. That was great. Thanks.

I agree with the poster who said Bills fans are rowdier. My experience has been that Jets fans are tamer and not a problem. They're New York City obnoxious, like Yankee fans, but that's just NYC.

JW I think this and the OP are really insightful. It points to the fact that whether they have great talent at the top, the Bills have good talent at a lot spots. I don't think you're saying it's better talent than anyone else's talent, just that they have enough to think about giving up some of it to a team that has an emergency need. I will be interested to see how it falls out. Trading Shady seems almost impossible, emotionally. But I think McBeane are ruthless in that regard.

It's the process. People pooh pooh it, but McDernott believes that he can win consistently by getting everyone committed to teamwork and total hard work. Everyone executes, no one makes mistakes. Do it for your teammates. Time will tell whether the process and Josh Allen is all he needs.

Yeah, that's a fair take on it, but I don't think it really matters to McDermott. You simply have to win your spot, every week. You would have thought Foster learned that last year, but apparently not. Yeah, he should learn from Brown. And it has to happen every day. Buottom line, if you want to be on the team, you have to be better than all but four or five guys, day in and day out, or it ain't happening. If he is not taking snaps from Beasley, Brown or Jones, he had better win against just about everyone else.

Thanks to everyone for their posts. Excellent insights. Hapless, particularly your hard-nosed analysis of what's going on with Foster. It sounds exactly correct. What we're seeing is what McBeane have been preaching. They want people who will compete every day, and they want at least enough talent so that the guy who competes the hardest gets the job AND can compete against NFL competition. In this case, Foster could end up being the residue in a very public competition. You don't compete, you don't survive. And let's face it, the same thing is happening on the o line and at running back. In fact it's happening at every position. Don't think for a minute that those d linemen and DBs aren't competing every day. If you can say one thing about the Bills McBeane are trying to build, it's that they compete. They will compete every Sunday. This is going to be fun.

Great thread. Thanks everyone.

Hah! Misplaced arrogamce! I likenthat. I really enjoyed what you wrote. My only qualification is that I think you have give the outsiders a week or two. The one thing the receivers getting reps have over the Outsiders is experience, either a lot in the league or at least a year with McD. If someone has something special, training camp is where it comes out. So tell me no one has emerged a week from now, and I will agree with you.

I think the logic applies equally to any of them. If you aren't one of the top four, maybe even the top three, you have to look like you have real upside. I think it's very difficult to say right now who other than the top 3 or 4 has the best upside. I don't think it's obvious, for example, that Sills has more upside than Duke. I understand the logic, but there are good arguments the other way too. It's a real dogfight to make the team at receiver, @@nd it will be a dogfight for playing time, too.

How does five-star talent translate to the NFL? How does being a good starting receiver in the SEC translate to the NFL? The guy has had success everywhere he's gone. He has size, decent speed, outstanding hands and, now, maturity. That's the kind 6 of resume that translates very well. U agree with Hapless abou McKenzie. He never has looked like a guy who is going to win a job as a receiver. Special teams and gadget plays, sure, but not a starting receiver.

I think he will make it. First, I think he brings raw talent that no one other than Foster has. He was a four- or five-star recruit coming out of high school, he apparently did very well against SEC competition until he screwed up, and he succeeded in the CFL. People say "yeah, well, he got a running start in the CFL." Sure he did, and every other receiver in the league did, too, and he led the league. I think that the fact that he's been so highly rated and done well wherever he's gone means that he has superior talent. So he has that going for him. Watching his CFL highlights, he seems to high-point the ball and fight for the ball as well as any receiver you can name. Some of that video reminds me of Anquan Bolden. He can block, and he likes the contact. That part of his game reminds me of Hines Ward. He's motivated. I think he's just a guy who took some time to grow up, and now he's ready to show what he can do. My guess is that he will be impressive enough through training camp that the Bills won't be able to risk cutting him and sending him to the practice squad (if he's even eligible for it). I think he will be good enough that the Bills will decide they have to keep him on the squad. And I think as the season progresses, we will see him more and more. He might be the last receiver to make it, but I don't think he'll be the last receiver at the end of the season.