corta765

Just want to thank everyone for their input this has been a really healthy and civil discussion that has a lot of create points and arguments. It would be fun someday to do a TBD summit for a day with different topics to discuss.

THANK GOD!

Thanks for adding this absolutely gives some really good accurate facts I just didn't have the time to completely address. I meant to add inflation piece into it which is why when I did my guesstimate I had the figure at at least $700 million. I don't think Buffalo would do the premium stuff and even I would acknowledge that figure is probably pretty loose. I understand the tailgating and I understand the passion for it it is great piece of our culture as fans. In my younger days we got there before 7 and stayed past 6 so I get that desire. What you have to consider though is not everyone wants to tailgate, if you have a family having things to do or places to go that aren't the parking lot is something that matters. For people who have no desire to tailgate in the cold having a nice bar or restaurant available adds to their experience and they would go earlier instead of just showing up before kickoff. You have to view the stadium in a broad sense not just what you and I do. The Bills will still have tailgating, but they will want to give other options so instead of 70% of the fanbase tailgating its more 45-50% and the others are doing the Bills experience or at establishments that cater to their wants and needs. John Warrow tweeted out that whether its a new stadium or renovation the figure is around $540 million. Either way money has to be spent the discussion will focus on will center on which way to go. A new stadium is feasible but it will have to be done in a model that works for everyone. Your points on PIT and ARZ are the way I think they will end up going.

Cry: -98 playoff loss to Dolphins. I was 10 first real Bills pain I remember -2002 home opener loss to Jets. Really was coming into my own as a fan and it was such a great game to lose that way -2010 Steelers loss Stevie drop. My wife and I hate the Steelers more then any other team and I actually jumped up celebrating the moment he caught it or so I thought. And then it wasn't to be. That season sucked and that killed badly because it just reinforced every negative stereotype we lived with as Bills fans at the time. 2011- Patriots win. Cried and shot fireworks off on my parents lawn. -2014 Pegula buys the Bills press conference. I still have the pictures on my phone of the TV on ESPN saying it was official. Our team was safe. -2018 New Years Day sat in bed with my wife that morning for probably 2 hrs just listening to WGR and both of us were crying tears of joy that the drought was dead. Probably the funnest week as a Bills fan I've had given I'm 30 and missed the glory days a little. Still tear up thinking of it soo awesome still 1990 Yearbook video on VHS. It was my grandpa's and I always watched it at his house growing up. Still watch it once a year before the season starts to get fired up and shed a tear for him. Anger/You Gotta Be Kidding Me: 99- Music City Miracle- nothing needs to be said 2007- Dallas. Bet my college swim coach an easy practice the next day if the Bills won. He gave me a 14 point spread he was that confident. I hated every minute of that practice even though I won that bet he let me know who won routinely. 2009- at Patriots Mckelvin fumble. As close as I've ever been to throwing a TV out a window and I wasn't even mad someone vandalized his lawn at the time. (In retrospect not cool) 2013- Kansas City home. Jeff Tuel pisses away the game in one throw. 2014- at Houston. EJ Manuel succeeds in pick 6ing a game we should've won. 2014- Kansas City home. McKelvin and Bryce Brown blow a game we should've won that cost us the playoffs. I had to work on my train layout for 3 hours to calm down. 2015- Jacksonville in England- That game finished off any belief I had in Rex and that season being different. Came home and took down all my Bills decorations season was over. 2016- Miami at home. X-Mas eve was ruined for an hour as everyone had to cool off after Rex Ryan punted on 4th down in a game he couldn't lose or tie. 2017- NYJ TNF game. Expected the night to be the first time I see the Bills at 6-2 and celebrate us finally being "for real". Instead they collapse like every team that started hot before crystallizing our worst insecurities and causing me to break my iPhone with a Gronk spike in a bar. Note the anger rose as the team actually got slightly more competitive the last few years dam expectations lol

I would agree this place is great. BBMB got insane when it came to the posters and a lot of the facebook chats get trolls or some poor opinions. There are a lot of well thought out posts that at least force me to re-evaluate more own opinion even if I don't want to.

Great question and I honestly couldn't provide the answer to this without researching it.

Just a lot of research. I was always interested in city planning almost did that for my masters degree (did education to help the kids instead, Go kids! haha). Anywho I was always fascinated with the new stadiums from designs, proposals, politics etc.. Once I got a little older and understood the whole nature of the stadium process I just read a lot of articles from various sources local news, deadspin which links pretty well with the issues, major reports, local reporters, etc. When they released the stadium site report I read the whole thing and from there I have just been carefully putting together the pieces the best I can. I thought yesterday was a very interesting demarcation point because it is step 1 in my eyes with the game between the team and government when Kim said they didn't have the money to do the entire project solo. 2019 will be a pivotal year for the whole stadium debate because it takes approximately 3 years to typically build a new stadium meaning by 2020 they need to have things signed and construction started. I expect more will happen over the course of this year.

Good points and excellent question. From the major writers and things I've read I would expect Buffalo probably to move down to 68-69k capacity wise. Not a major drop but a little more I would think to help make tickets slightly more competitive to get price wise. I have been of the belief since the Pegula's start buying buildings downtown they are aiming for a downtown move and absolutely believe they would build a Bills campus like you said. Kraft and Pegula talk a bunch and I don't think its any secret he would want something like patriot place downtown. He already has some of the things set like the Labatt tasting house coming plus 716 and harborcenter. Add a few more things when the stadium comes and he is golden.

That's why I think the new stadium stuff is out now. Everything the Pegula's have is downtown except for their crown jewel the Bills. Its pretty plausible that people would tour the stadium/museum downtown get lunch at 716 or Labatt tasting house and then keep cruising the waterfront for the day.

I think from what I have read a renovation would include much wider concourses.

Exactly. I have been of the belief a stadium was ready to go so if an owner that wasn't the Pegula's came in Buffalo had a fighting chance to keep the team. That waterfront project was pretty well involved and seemed to have the backing. I have often thought DN wants a piece of this new stadium and NYS will be working very closely behind the scenes with Pegula. He has been a boon regionally for NYS thanks to his investments downtown and it has helped certain political officials greatly.

Thank you. The premium stuff from the clubs, massive skylights, doors opening just to let air in, massive scoreboards, and other things built on property are what really drive the insanity. Those are also done though by cities aiming for a Super Bowl something I don't think we would do. I don't have an opinion currently of new or rehab like Arrowhead until more information is given. I will say after being to enough rain games that the roof doesn't bother me like others. Ironically though I love the snow go figure haha Thanks really appreciate the kind remarks. I am sure not everything I said is perfect but I think its a decent summary. Yea the club and extra stuff is what the killer is. I think the Bills if they decided to build a new stadium would be smart enough to focus on what works for their fanbase which would help lower the cost. We want a loud raucous environment, if anything a true team museum/interactive experience like Green Bay would be a better thing then club seats. I went to Miami twice now and they actually have a pretty decent stadium that isn't uber club focused which shocked me a bit.

So after yesterday's comments by Kim Pegula I wanted to out line some facts and figures for everyone. This in no way is a prediction of any form minus at the end, its just giving you a lot of information to digest in regards to building a new stadium if it were to happen. New Era (The Ralph) The Ralph underwent a $130 million dollar renovation in 2013 which is also when the ten year lease was signed. The state invested around $54 million during this renovation with the Bills covering the other half. Additionally the Bills are currently renovating the suites and club areas with their own money which should be completed for this season. Despite the investment in 2013 the Ralph is in need of a major overhaul which has been estimated around $450-540 million dollars. The team knows this, the state knows this, and the NFL of course knows this. As John Warrow from the AP news tweeted yesterday that is where the major decision lies because a new stadium is not that much more money wise, but the major players have to agree in unity in either regard to make it happen. Some of you are probably asking why the Ralph would cost that much after renovations a few years ago. The Ralph by 2023 will be 50 years old (pretty cool) and like any aging structure they need to do massive structural updates so it can last long term. The recent renovations were designed to improve the physical plant and concrete for the short term, but if you want the stadium for another 30 years plus it needs an overhaul physically. Additionally the stadium has an awful electrical layout which is why the Bills have trouble getting night games. It is a complete bear for the TV crews etc.. to set the place up compared to other stadiums. A lot of people bring up Lambeau Field that its perfectly fine but don't realize the Packers and county have spent over $520 million in renovations since the early 2000's on with $140 million in 2015 to add more expansion to the stadium. Stadium's themselves are now not just about the game but the surrounding experience. Teams are now building stadiums with the intention of keeping fans there all day or evening plus bringing fans there on non game days with shops, restaurants, etc... If you have ever been to Patriot Place in NE it has a mini mall, restaurants, and movie theater which fans can go and watch the game on game day. Now if the Bills stay at the Ralph would they do all of that? Probably not all of it but they certainly would add some of those features so fans who don't tailgate all day or come from out of town. The Atlanta Braves opened a new stadium last year which is being viewed sports wide as the future for stadium building in owners eyes. They have created a massive area like Patriot Place that also includes a hotel, business park, and shops for people. Sports owners are now viewing stadiums as just a piece to a potential goldmine in real estate development.The Pegula's do seem to have a strong handle on what would work in Buffalo and like I said I doubt if a new stadium happened its to that extreme, but that is now the gold standard. Stadium Cost People understandably have a shuttered reaction when they hear a new stadium because of recent billion dollar projects in Dallas, Minnesota, San Francisco & Atlanta. But the majority of stadiums constructed during the last two decades in the NFL have fallen between $500-750 million dollars. Yes absolutely that is a lot of money but I will cover funding below. The types of stadiums mentioned that the Bills may model after if they build new are indoor stadiums like Detroit $658 million, Indianapolis $792 million (also a convention center though used more regularly) and outdoor stadiums like Pittsburgh $376 million and Seattle $515 million. Additionally Arizona's beautiful stadium actually was $515 million which even I was kinda stunned at given how unique it is and because its already hosted two Super Bowls. The NFL doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl if you build a new stadium, but generally the more expensive the better chance you may get one assuming it has a dome. The Bills Outer Harbor proposal back in 2014 by local leaders was estimated at 1.4 million but that included the stadium, new convention center, hotels, restaurants, and a sports museum plus the infrastructure costs. That fell by the way side once the Pegula's bought the team and guaranteed the teams long term viability here plus it would've been a traffic disaster out there. The three big things that typically effect a stadiums cost are the size, infrastructure, and the type of roof. It makes sense that the bigger the stadium the more expensive because a lot of time these stadiums include restaurants and other shops on premise. Additionally the premium club areas really add to the cost given the amenities they typically have. Cities like Seattle, Pittsburgh, & Detroit do not have nearly the amount of club areas compared to places like San Fran and Minnesota which is why the costs are lower. IF the Pegula's play to the market correctly and focus on the general fan not the premium stuff that would help limit these costs. Additionally recent stadiums in places like NYC, Dallas, & San Francisco are in cities where the cost of construction is higher just in general which inflates the cost. The roof is always a big deal with construction. With no roof it certainly helps to keep the cost lowered because its just less area to need to build with but you limit what you can do year round. I doubt if the Bills decide to build new that they don't have a roof so if that happens it comes down to whether the roof is retractable, whether it just covers like in Detroit, or whether its a natural light gallery such as the Vikings stadium. The cheapest would be doing the Detroit model of just a nice roof with skylights on the sides, but I personally think you'd see something more expensive like the Vikings new glass gallery they constructed. Funding (cue the ominous music) This is everyone's favorite part to argue and get upset about but I will try to explain this the best I can. Funding for new stadiums differs literally state to state due to the different laws each state has. The Chargers moved from San Diego partially because any tax increase or bond issued for a stadium had to be approved by at least a 66.7% majority in the area. In their case they were going to increase the hotel tax from 12% to 16% and it failed miserably. In New York State though the leadership non surprisingly can more or less agree without public approval to increases. Yankee Stadium & Citi Field were funded by 1.8 billion in state and city money when they were constructed (just an FYI for those opposed to a new stadium because we have to pay well guess what we had to pay for two stadiums none of us use so it sucks in general haha). Depending on the owner/team the type of stadium proposal for the government changes in how it is funded. Some markets will issue low interest bonds which are typically the best way to avoid tax payer issues that are paid back over a 20-25 year period. Other markets like Cleveland added a Sin Tax to things like alcohol and tobacco by a few percentages to help during their Gateway project in the 1990s that funded their stadiums. A lot of times teams want the majority of government help to come for infrastructure surrounding the stadium with roads, highways, parking, etc.. to be improved and covered. The major horror stories in stadium funding come when cities/gov pledge to invest massive amounts of money on tax increases that are not sustainable which in turn force the cities to have to cut services to public entities. The Bengals fleeced Hamilton County by threatening to move in the late 90s which saw the county front the cost of almost the entire stadium. They pay now 10 million a year or 16.4% of their budget for the stadium and in 2011 had to cut a tax rollback due to a budget shortage. Stadium deals in general are never great but having politicians who can skillfully fight is very important so whatever deal comes limits or absolves the tax payer of any cost. The Vikings new stadium was funded with a hospitality tax and a half a percent sales tax increase. It limited the debt on the tax payer but still forced money that could go to the city for other projects to be done for a stadium. A major reason for why more stadiums are constructed now and why the NFL encourages it so heavily is their former G-3 program and current G-4 program. Long story short the G3 program saw the NFL willing to match up to $150 million dollar for dollar in stadium cost to the teams contribution so $300 million from the NFL/Team. The league by 2011 realized it was too much from the league coffers and modified the program with the G-4 program which loans an NFL team up to $200 million for a new stadium and $250 million for stadium renovation. The major sticking point is the project either way has to be a public/private partnership to be eligible. A plus side to this is a team receiving G-4 funds cannot relocate from their city. The project also has to be at least $400 million to receive the top level loan funding which is why many of the stadium costs recently have sky rocketed in construction. There are additional provisions that give better loan credit if there are PSL's but keep in mind comparable markets like Indianapolis & Detroit did not use PSL's for their new stadiums and Pittsburgh & Cleveland had them at about $250-300 on the low end. New Stadium Cost vs New Era Reno Guesstimated Breakdown: Just a quick tid bit before my cost guess. When the stadium committee released its report on sites and types of stadium designs back in the mid 2010's a key point between indoor stadium vs outdoor stadium was usage. If the stadium was outdoor the usage would be between 20-30 times a year for major events. But if the stadium was indoor it opened the possibility up to more in the 50-60 times a year usage. I believe this will be a major point when the discussion comes in a few years. Anyway here are my soft guesstimates on what the cost breakdown could be for a new stadium vs reno: New Stadium NFL Loan program: $200 million Buffalo Bills: $200 million State: $150 million Erie County: $100 million (mixture of lease repayment and some small hotel or sales tax increase) City: $50 million (Bond to be repaid over 25 years) Total: $700 million My guesstimate is based on the stadium being downtown next to the Sabres arena where they have a lot of parking, PSE headquarters, Labatt Tasting house, and other new construction being built. I don't believe the Pegula's are a Synder or Brown type that would fleece the region and the expected investment will be more on the roads and highways in the city. Additionally Poloncarz has been pretty strong about protecting the tax payers while working to make the lease fair for all sides so I don't foresee a hit to tax payers. New Era Field (Ralph) NFL Loan program: $250 million Buffalo Bills: $125 million State: $100 million Erie County: $75 million (mixture of lease repayment and some small hotel or sales tax increase) Total: $550 million There will still have to be investment locally on this but it would be less then downtown. I am curious how much Orchard Park may try to pull to keep the team in OP for tax reasons. These figures more or less full in line with what has been projected for the stadium and what has been spent in the past with increase for all sides reasonable to what has previously been spent. Thanks for reading here are some of the articles I referenced from: https://www.statista.com/statistics/790924/nfl-stadiums-construction-costs-to-build-most-expensive/ http://www.greenberglawoffice.com/nfl-credit-facility-has-made-possible-new-state-of-the-art-stadiums/ https://www.mprnews.org/story/2012/11/15/sports/nfl-personal-seat-licenses-compared

Consider it insight on the type of stadium they want vs. whats needed.

Haha Schumer was made for the new stadium press conference. This is his baby I am sure he will pull out all the whistles to let the public know he had a role in a private orgs new play toy rather then doing literally anything else. Byron Brown will also be there because he loves press conferences.

Neither do I was just using the cost figure more than anything. I would an expect an indoor dome or glass thingy like Minnesota.

No you spend 1.4 billion because instead of drunks tailgating spending no money in your stadium, you have families spending $100-200 apiece on your development with the stadium. Read up on the Atlanta Braves stadium/city they basically built. Teams want you there all day and night to spend money its not just the game in the least anymore in fact that's the last thing. A new stadium that non football season allows tours, a team experience, shopping, restaurants etc.. is a ton of money. Pegula is friends with Robert Kraft and loves patriot place which is exactly that.

Sports stadiums are now about the experience the whole time. I understand the tailgating I love doing it myself, but a lot of teams want the groups on parties and development that is there own for money or just people to be at. If your the Bills whats more lucrative having the majority of your fans just tailgate OR say 45% tailgate while more families and groups of people enjoy things hosted by the team that brings in revenue. That is everything in a nutshell. If it was just about watching football your 100% accurate the Ralph has been rated the best site lines in the game straight up.

That's not true It truthfully depends on the type of stadium. If the Bills do a mix of SEA/PIT/DET/IND its about 400-500 million which won't kill ticket prices. You are correct if they do a Vikings/Falcons type billion dollar project.

Thanks. I study stadium deals and creation unhealthy but I find them fascinating. This is the perfect time for the Bills to start the game given the lease is up in 6 years. I expect a new stadium announced at some point in 2019.

100%. Goes like this: -Openly say new stadium may not feasible -Announce plans how new stadium may be in the works just need to review -Announce stadium officially and plans and how it isn't a bind on the tax payers -Gov. rejects some of the tax plans -Team puts mild threats on viability without new stadium -Both sides behind close doors find a meeting point. This is the most important part because this is where owners can screw over gov if the leadership isn't strong enough to hold ground on the right things (property tax, not allowing over runs in budget, reduction of gov services etc..). The Pegula's don't seem the type that would screw over people royally like Dan Snyder but you still need strong leadership not to give the farm. -New stadium is agreed on and opens in 3 years BOOM!

First off Lambeau went under a massive massive reno that added seat, luxury boxes etc... the stadium is like brand new and gorgeous its at the levels with the top in the league. Second Soldier Field is just the name of the stadium, they actually built a new stadium on top of it and just kept the name. People say basically is like a spaceship landed on the old stadium. The Bills stadium if you have ever been to an out of town stadium is dated as heck. The renovations have at least modernized it to make it decent but its far behind in modern amenities. I know everyone is obsessed with tailgating but its also the cause of families not going because of the drunks. You will still have drunks in a new stadium and still have tailgating but you will also have an easier time controlling the rowdiness and families may actually go before kids is 11 years old.

Naw its part of the political ploy to get money state wise. They start off making overtures like this that gather public support and then announce their plans etc.. And with due respect the Chargers matter squat to their area compared to the Bills in Buffalo. The people in SD had zero issue not approving the stadium plans.

Miami yes, the Jets I would disagree. We may be a bit better on D, but their WR corp is far better and if Darnold is the real deal they become an issue immediately because they have a guy that can win routinely.

Agreed although I wouldn't say golden position. If any of the teams in AFCE had competent mgmt during the Pats reign their success wouldn't be as great. The Vikings don't have Aaron Rodgers yet have conquared the Packers during their run of being really good because its a competently run org. This is the best I've felt about the Bills in 20 years which makes me feel good but also wonder wtf we were doing before. At the same time the Jets did draft a rookie QB who they also have reason to be excited about and if he clicks the same Allen does we will have a valid for to contend with. Miami...welll hahahaha