jad1

Aaron Rogers has him beat: 20 times sacked 6 TDs 1 INT 101 QB Rating

Right, the point that good players contain attributes that make them good NFL players is patently ridiculous. David Klinger was a first round pick because the Bengals made a mistake, just like the Bills did with Losman. The Bills were 4-12 Kelly's rookie year. Elway QB rating was 54% his rookie year. The Colts were 3-13 Manning's rookie season. Despite the coaching staffs, these guys struggled their rookie years. But despite their struggles, they made plays that showed that they were NFL quality starters. See the point. I've never argued that Losman and Edwards didn't play under poor coaches. What I've argued, is that despite have a stacked deck, they haven't made the plays that Kelly, Elway, and Manning did their rookie years. (And I'm comparing their entire careers against the real NFL QBs rookie years). I could use Rothlisberger, Rivers, Manning, Rogers, Palmer, or Cutler. They're all examples of QBs who bring more talent and intangibles to the QB position than Edwards. That's the point your arguing against. Like I said before; a waste of time. By the way, Edwards brings almost nothing to the NFL. Nada, zip, zilch. If you had a genius coach and OC, what type of offense do you build around a QB who won't throw to his WRs and still can't read a 3-4. Dude, I don't know, I spend my most my Saturdays out and about. I've seen some of Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, and Florida, and right now, I'm not that impressed with the QBs that will be coming out in the draft. Right now, I hope the Bills don't spend a pick on a QB in the first round. But I just don't spend a lot of time doing college scouting. Happy? Anyway, this grows tiresome. I'm chalking this up to 'agree to disagree' on Edwards and Losman. I'm spending the rest of the night watching the MNF game. Sanchez and Henne are making plays all over the field and I want to catch some of it.

touche

Right: Me: You: So maaybe I missed your meaning, but that implies that David Klingler just needed a better coaching staff to guide his development and he wouldn't have been a bust. Sure, and my point is that even with a bad coaching staffs, QBs with NFL starting potential still show something despite the rest of the team around them. Despite their situation, Losman and Edwards haven't shown the ability to rise above the chaos around them. This is something that Elway, Kelly and Manning all did. Losman and Edwards are bad quarterbacks playing on bad teams with bad coaches. Right, because this is about me. My argument is based upon the common observation that some first round QBs become successful while some first round QBs become total flops. Not all of those flops played for poor coaches (Kyle Boller, Matt Leinart). So maybe, just maybe, the QBs that turn out to be good bring something to the NFL that contribute to their success. You're unwilling to concede that point. No, it's a waste of time because I'm debating with a self-appointed know-it-all who mutates his arguments and makes personal attacks rather than conceding a point to further a debate. It's been real, though. Have a good night.

This is turning into a waste of time. You're right, all first round flops are products of bad coaching, they're not bad QBs. If Tom Moore coached Russell in Oakland, we'd be calling him Peyton Manning Jr. And Akili Smith just needed Mouse Davis to come out of retirement to be his OC. It's all Mike Brown's fault for not hiring him. And Mark Sanchez looks like a future QB star because Rex Ryan wants to run the ball 80 times a game. I never thought that I'd have to argue that David Klingler or Heath Shuler were blown draft choice. Who knew I'd run into such an expert on QB development . So tell me genius, do us all a favor and look into your f$%king crystal ball and tell me who the Bills have to hire as OC to turn Trent Edwards into the next Jim Kelly, or Phil Simms, or Joe Montana. Enlighten us.

Gilbride's problem in Buffalo was the Bledsoe couldn't read a cover 2 defense.

The problem is that most of the yards were gained early in the year, when teams where double-covering Evans and Owens. Since the Bills cannot get the ball to those guys on a consistent basis, teams will forgo the double coverage and start loading the box, which will make running the ball much more difficult. Not saying it can't be done, but the running game was not that effective the last two weeks against a couple of winless teams. It's not going to be able to carry the offense alone the rest of the year. The offense will only improve when Owens and Evans become a threat again.

Ben Rothlisberger won the Super Bowl behind a line that gave up more sacks than Buffalo last season, and the Steelers had no running game.

To pick a GM, Ralph should consider what type team he wants to build. Considering that the Bills play in the northeast, a team with strong offensive and defensive lines, a strong running game, and an attacking defense seems the way to go. Next he should find teams in the NFL that play that style of football, and then interview the top scouting/player development guys for the job. In other words, he should raid the Giants, Ravens, Vikings, or Titans scouting departments.

C'mon now, any draft picks aquired in the trade would be used by the new FO/coach. And maybe the new staff will have a fetish for 180lb running backs. Or 5'8" QBs. Maybe the Bills have a first round fullback in their future. Let's not limit our opportunities when Dick and friends are gone.

That's easy, this organization has no idea what qualities make a good NFL QB, and for that reason, has not been able to aquire one since Kelly left. The same goes for the LT position.

Yeah, that will last until he plays a defense good enough to force him to make a 2nd or 3rd read. Then all hell will break loose.

Maybe. Or maybe you try to figure out if the guy is more interested in spending his weeknights attending celebrity hot tub parties than studying the playbook and breaking down film.

Thanks, I'll let Darin explain how NFL coaching ruined the careers of those two gems.

Yeah, and Brooks Bollinger threw 4. So if NFL teams are looking for a QB out of that league of slags, JP isn't even on the top of that list.

Mouse Davis? Kelly's successful because of the run and shoot? Considering you base your theory that young QBs who take a beating become broken, shell-shocked failures, I find it interesting that you would point to an offensive scheme that Kelly got creamed in the USFL as a reason for his success. Kelly liked the Run and Shoot because it let him throw the ball 50 times a game. But it did almost nothing to protect him or develop him in the way you decribe below with Flacco and Ryan. So what is your point again? Manning's genetic awesomeness? Yeah, you are familiar with the Mannings, right? So let's say Manning doesn't hook up with Tom Moore. Who fades into oblivion, Moore or Manning? Does Moore turn Andre Ware, David Klingler, or Heath Shuler into the best QB in a generation? Does Manning turn into Trent Dilfer playing for some other sub-standard OC? And speaking of Manning genetic awesomeness, what about Eli, who helped the Giants win the Super Bowl. Who's his offensive coordinator? If Gilbride is so great, how come he didn't develop Rob Johnson like he did Manning? The fact is that Moore and Gilbride are benefiting from the work that Archie Manning did in making his sons NFL-ready straight out of college. Not sure what you're saying here. If you're claiming that good coaching = minimizing pass attempts, well Flacco, Ryan, and Edwards all averaged around 26 pass attempt per game last season. Did the Bills exhibit "smart, stable coaching" by limiting Edwards to the same number of pass attempts that the enlightened coaching staffs of the Ravens and Falcons limited their rookie QBs to? Of course, those staffs got more productivity out of their passing game because they have better QBs. The Jets didn't trade for Braylon Edwards because they believe he'll be a good downfield blocker. They'll increase Sanchez's role as the season progresses. I never claimed I was smarter than anybody, I'm just expressing my observations and trying to back them up with examples. I'm still waiting for your examples, by the way, of young QBs with franchise potential being broken by a poor coaching staff. We can continue to keep the debate one-sided though, me defending my points, until you come up with your list. Well let's see. Say the Colts drafted Ryan Leaf instead of Peyton Manning. Does Tom Moore coach him to the greatness that Manning has achieved? Let's say that the Houston Gamblers signed Todd Blackledge instead of Jim Kelly. Does Mouse Davis turn him into a HOF QB? What if Kelly Stouffer was drafted by Don Shula instead of Marino. Does he break the NFL TD record? How about Chuck Long playing for Dan Reeves. Does Denver still go to all those Super Bowls? I stand by my point. No coach in the league could turn guys like Akili Smith, Danny Wufferel, Heath Shuler, David Klingler, or Jamal Russell into NFL starters. Finally, how do you explain Matt Leinart? A first round pick who is struggling to hold the backup QB position. Meanwhile, Kurt Warner is lighting up the scoreboard. It the coaching staff enabling Warner, while at the same time it's breaking Leinart? Or is it a case that Warner has what it takes to play in the NFL and Leinart doesn't? And maybe Arizona should have understood that Leinart lacked the committment and leadership needed to play in the NFL, and avoided him in the draft.

I can't believe that the Ravens had to resort to the draft to bring in backup for their LT! You mean they didn't have a fat-slob RT that could have manned the position just as well as Gaither? And didn't they have a 7th round pick with a couple of years of football experience ready to make his first NFL start as a replacement? Obviously, the Ravens don't know what the hell they're doing! I'll bet that they're not even using the no-huddle the entire game! The first quarter of this season has certainly exposed the stupidity of the Bills' braintrust's offseason decisions.

The only reason that many showed up was that it was nice sunny day.

Yep.

I remember it, I was at that game (I was at the concession stand at half time when he was booed though). The Vikings won by ripping the Bills with the statue of liberty play....TWICE! Good times, good times.

Is that really the only option? How about this, hire some personnel guys who know how to find talented QBs in the draft, and not the slags that the Bills have been wasting picks on the last decade? In the meantime, keep Trent in there in a futile effort to "develop" him, or put in Fitz. It really doesn't matter right now, as the Bills 'QB of the future' clearly isn't on the roster.

I thought they did that with their current uniforms.

They are what their record says they are. Either on offense or defense, the team doesn't make enough plays. There's a ton of blame to spread around.

Or when a Sunday would make an entire week. Not so much anymore either.