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The insults , as always for me, were in response to your oh so cleverly hidden insults not only to me but to countless other posters on this board and no, you still don't understand the point based on your explaination. Do not try to pretend here that the insult parade started anywhere but with yourself.

On the surface' date=' that sounds like a good statement. But it doesn't hold much water when you think about it. Teams are more than one person (which is the point you tried to make, but it didn't quite work). Again, they have stronger players and weaker players - and some times the stronger players can carry the load for the weaker players. Teams can, and often do, win in spite of certain players. Take Mike Pucillo for example. He hurt the team more than he helped it when he was a starter, and yet we won a few games with him in. Were they because of him or in spite of him? It's not as magical as "well, if we won, then everyone did good; if we lost, everyone did bad." Sorry. But don't feel too bad, a lot of Stadium Wall posters have a hard time grasping this. [right']198239[/snapback][/right] Looks like you didn't even grasp what I was saying there smartass I was refering to posters who contradict themselves. Also I pointed out "when said player contributes to a win" which is not in all cases. My point was made loud and clear for someone with comprehension skills. Spare me your "don't feel too bad" garbage especially when you can't even comprehend the point I made.

That was priceless Fezmid! Maybe it should be stickied

Thanks for the well thought out post AKC. It's a good read and perspective regardless of whether one agrees with it or not. The bottom line determining factor here on TBD as I have seen it that clearly reveals those who have a personal grudge against DB or any other player for that matter is - When said player contributes to a loss they take the heat AND when said player contributes to a victory they are either not mentioned at all or were somehow just "along for the ride" while the team won in spite of him. Easiest way to pick 'em

Clapton's version of "While my guitar gently weeps"

hmmmmm 3 starting O-lineman injured last season for Pitt.... Ooops that opens up a whole new can of worms

We win as a team, we lose as a team. There are always certain individuals that play stronger roles in team losses than others and all of them are fair game for criticism at times. This is the way I personally try to evaluate the team at all times. Sometimes opinions can turn out to be wrong, but there should be no players who go blameless when their time comes.

Tom, it's an assumption any way you look at it. I've been in a couple of locker rooms full of immaturity and questionable judgement but none of that ever got in the way of TEAM. That's not to say that it never could, just that it is an "onside kick" of assumption on your part if you will, and I'm sure you won't

Complete and utter unfounded speculation manifested in your own mind. ....... I will try to dig up some of the quotes that I refered to **** EDIT- Ah, here is one: Press Conference

You might guess that, but then when does two "off the field" situations empiricly lead one to the conclusion of "cancer" in the locker room? , and what scientific method would support that line of thought?

that is not an area that I was disputing in any way. In fact I credited VA for being the guy who pointed to those shortcomings long ago...

In the real world, evidence taken from players GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY to praise TH for his professionalism at times when NOT PROMPTED to do so qualifies as more substantial than speculations of a fan based on 4 years ago. That Said, this has become quite an entertaining thread for many other unexpected reasons and I respect all of your opinions.

Right, like when the Bills were 0-4 this year ? I'm sure there are plenty of historical examples out there or maybe a mathmetician to show us that even "educated" assumptions are probably correct a whopping ...... 50% of the time

So basically there is no evidence to support the conjecture is what you are saying? I see.... People never change and learn from their mistakes right? We were all of the same maturity level immediately after leaving college as we are 3 or 4 years after the fact, right?

Re: your "locker room cancer" comment, It was expressed by multiple team sources that TH handled his diminished role like a man and a professional. End of story. You were right on TH all along about his physical/mental abilities on the field. Why now make yourself look like a fool by spewing unfounded nonsense?

Aiken has not had nearly the opportunity that Reed has in order to show any tendancy wether good or bad. I'm just going on what I've seen of him in camp and in small spurts during the season.

Stop making sense You gotta love it when posters state "looks like they finally agree with Most of us at TBD" as if we (yes even the most knowledgeable of fans) have any clue in evaluating a player vs. coaches and staff who spend hundreds and hundreds of hours with these guys. Maybe just maybe the reason he's been here so long is because during that whole period he was the best QB on this team .

This would be the reasonable and most likely approach.

I see what you're getting at. As you were then......

I was in section 126 row 19. If I would have heard them I'm sure I would have agreed that they were lame

Good post AKC.... Some random big plays in big games by Moulds: '98 Jax game (caught the long ball that got them down to the 3 leading to the Flutie TD), '02 (Long ball over 2 Dolphin defenders to put away the Fish in the snow. We still had playoff aspirations at the time.) '03 vs. Cinci (reception that EM got injured on allows us to keep the winning drive alive , and the Bills get back to winning after starting 2-0), '98 Pats game in Foxboro (splits and stiffarms defenders on a long RAC play to keep Bills in the game but we lose on "just give it to 'em"), cinci '98 game (the week after phantom loss to patriots, Moulds single-handedly wins must win game to help get us to Playoffs. He also made tons of plays in the Miami playoff game that year although he did fumble on one of them). This is all I can think of without consulting the records...

I disagree but have nothing for you to prove that you're not right

I was there but don't recall hearing it, and never have previously. I have heard them pipe in with the "DEFENSE, DEFENSE" cheer plenty of times but that's just to get things started.

Yeah I did like him and gave him a really long leash as far as putting up with his struggles from a fan's point of view, but those days are nearly entirely in the rear view mirror. His continued concentration lapses have cost this team too many times and I can't justify him having the #3 spot merely as a good blocker. When he DOES catch the ball he shows great leg strength in getting extra yards but again he is just too inconsistent for me to keep supporting him.

I see no problem utilizing Aiken as #3 and focussing our cap $ in other areas. Most of those guys listed are either a downgrade (Streets, Ward, Thrash) or potentially too expensive (Burress, TJ) for a team that already has Moulds and Evans.