weehawk

You really should research what the LA stadium situation is alla bout. If it was that simple, they'd be the LA Vikings or the LA Chargers by now. It's not as black and white as you make it sound.

This topic is so entertaining even at 9pm. There will be no roof There will be no new stadium That being said, Bills fans should be following what's going on in MIN. The State, County, City wants to give them nothing in the way of a new stadium, and the team has no leverage. There is no where for them to threaten to move to. Same thing here. Give them enough money to keep the place safe and then tell RW to blow if he does not like it. Toronto - No suitable NFL stadium and the Canadian govt is not building one LA - Aint happnin now or in the next 5-10 years So....what happens when they tell RW to F**k off on his $100 million+ demands? Joe six-pack fan will realize very few tangible benefits from these improvements. They will go toward infrastructure and to "revenue-generating" improvements. That leaves me, you, and 60,000+ other fans out in the cold since we only generate $50 tickets, $20 parking, and $100 worth of beer. CALL RALPH's BLUFF!!

Trust me. It's all figured in. This subject has been researched to death by many leading economists who are not necessarily naysayers. They are economists that generally know what they are talking about. Read the *detailed* reports that the article refers to and then come back and say they didn't take certain things into account or are biased. I'm sure they could care less about NY State and the Bills. Numbers are numbers. I never said that there are no benefits to having a team. Keep the stadium safe on the taxpayers dime and that's it. Anything else, the owner pays for. Above and beyond a safe building, this is the wrong way to spend tax money. If we dont start with such blatant waste like this, there will never be any real change. In the case of NY State, I think it's probably too late anyway. No one can tell me that the City will shrivel up and die without the Bills. The City ( and State) is already a train wreck. The Bills leaving wont make any real difference, except to the Hammer guy that runs the parking lot and the concession guys that make some extra dough hawking beer. If Bills fans had any real balls, they'd lobby the State to call Ralph's bluff. Like I said, the man has nowhere to take the team, and a new owner wont be any better off. The NFL gravy train is slowing down big time. There are no more big (or medium) markets that can afford a team and a new stadium. Regardless of what the media says, the US economy will never recover to past levels. We shipped all of our middle class jobs overseas and they are not coming back. At least three other teams are trying to squeeze their cities and states for money with the threat that they will leave. They all cant leave and anyone that thinks that LA or Toronto is a viable market now or in the next five to ten years is not paying attention. CALL RALPH's BLUFF!! WHERE ARE THEY GONNA GO IF RALPH DOES NOT GET HIS $100+ MILLION UPGRADE? LA - read the news. LA is no closer to a stadium than it was when the Raiders left Toronto - The NFL would require a new stadium. Based on well-documented past events, the Canadian govt will not fund a new stadium and that's the only way new stadiums get built these days San Antonio - Probably the best case scenario for an NFL-ready city. I think MIN could end up there as OAK and SD will wait out the LA fiasco. Oklahoma City - No stadium-no govt money Portland - No stadium-no govt money So you basically have MIN, OAK, SD all trying to squeeze govt money for new buildings and they realistically only have one place to go and that's not going to change for many years. This is a farce. The Bills have no where to go and there is no logical reason to give them $100 million+ in upgrades.

Sorry, I did not intend to start a new stadium thread. Let's avoid that subject if possible. WNY is not getting a new stadium, domed or otherwise. I'm just trying to get an idea how much people think they are willing to pay for stadium upgrades, considering $100 million has been bandied about and that it's all coming from the taxpayer. Let's keep the Bills in BUF playing at RWS. That's pretty much a given. The real issue is do people really think that RW will move the team now or in his short-term future, simply because the State of NY tells him that we dont have $100 million for his top-o-the-line stadium upgrades? I dont think he will and I dont think he has much choice but to sign a lease on the taxpayers terms. He honestly has no where to go. He will have passed away by the time LA gets a stadium. Other than LA, where do they go? Toronto? Forget it. The NFL wants a new stadium there and the Canadian govt is not going to build one. Time for NY State to stop coddling him and use this lease negotiation to favor the taxpayer.

IMO, do what is necessary to keep the facility safe. Anything beyond that is simply Ralph & Co wanting to keep their pockets fully lined at taxpayer expense. It's the difference of spending ~$20 million for infrastructure/safety and $100+ million for infra AND new amenities. The vast majority of game day patrons never use or even see those new amenities. It's all for the upper-crust and the taxpayers pay for it ALL, not just some. Disclaimer: I have not seen any info on specifically what improvements they plan to make to RWS, so this is conjecture of course. BTW, BUF is not Dallas or NYC. Playing with the big-boys is gonna cost big bux and RW is not going to pony up any of it. Doesn't anyone ever get PO'd at the way their tax money is spent, even when it's for the Bills? Pro sports teams ARE community assets, no doubt. However, they are nowhere near as valuable as they have been touted in the past. At some point some city somewhere needs to stand up and say NO. We'll offer you this much, beyond that pay for it yourself or leave. People have been saying for years that BUF, JAX, SD, MIN, OAK are all moving. None have moved, none are moving anytime soon, and there's just nowhere for them to go anyway. Start fighting for your tax dollars or you'll be bled dry and will be living on Bailey Ave.

Here's a link to yet another article that clearly demonstrates that public money being put into pro sports buildings does NOT equal jobs, money, prosperity, etc. Keep this in mind when RW demands (not asks) the State of NY to pump $100+ million into RWS purely so he can improve profits. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-03/as-super-bowl-shows-build-stadiums-for-love-and-not-money-view.html

Because "most" medium-market cities have at least one upscale, boutique hotel that sports teams, rock bands, etc stay at. BUF does not have one. That's why he singled us out. Considering the Sabres, concerts, Shea's, etc, the city needs one pretty badly. The ongoing problem is no one wants to invest in the city for all the reason previously listed on this board and elsewhere.

No offense, but I'd rather spend a day on the corner of Genesee and Bailey than go to a game at the Stick. I lived in the Bay Area for almost 20 years and saw many football and baseball games there. The word dump no longer even applies. The NFL should drop a bomb on the place and send another one to Hunter's Point just to make sure. Yes, I was at the "no punt" game in '92. Even wore my Bills jacket. Took some heat, but it wasn't bad. We used to go "smoking" on the ramp where the cops would watch and laugh. It's quite a place.

Based on this schedule I predict 8-8 next season. FWIW, I've been dead on with my last two season predictions. Usually I wait until the week before the first game, but I'll go out on a limb and say 8-8.

my son gave me a set of four tumblers from a charity sale.

If they truly intend to spend upwards of a $100 mil, they had better get an iron-clad guarantee about long-term future tenancy. Anything short of that and I say give them nothing, call their bluff, and let them walk if that's what it comes to. The State of NY is pretty stupid though. I wont be surprised if they give them the 100 mil and then they're able to walk in five years. Problem is, if there are airtight stipulations like that RW might not go for it. His overriding concern is to sell the team upon his death. I highly doubt he is going to agree to a deal that could prevent the team from being sold quickly, easily, and for the most money possible. My assumption is that majority of interested buyers have no intention of keeping the team in WNY for the long-term. So tying the team to a long-term WNY lease is not in RWs best interest. These negotiations will be very interesting. More interesting than the football that's been foisted upon us for all of these years.

A truly pathetic franchise with no hope under its current ownership and front office. WNY should move on. Stop supporting the team blindly and let them move if that's what they really want to do. Although I dont know where they realistically think they are going to go. Stop pumping tens of millions of tax payer dollars into RWS so a few thousand people can party 7 Sundays a year. It's simply a waste of public money. The Bills have long ago stopped bringing positive attention (or money) to the region. The County/State should call RWs bluff. Give them only enough money to keep the stadium safe and then tell them to blow if they dont like it. If the team had a tendency to win, *maybe* you could justify the expenditure. But a team that perpetually loses is ultimately a drain on the economy.

While the gridiron net sounds like a good idea, the reality is that stadium-level events just are not occurring at a rate that they used to. The last concert at RWS was NSync in 2001. Springsteen was supposed to play in 2003, but it was moved to Darien due to poor ticket sales. That right there should tell you something. The only large-scale stadium tour over the last few years has been U2. However, they passed on RWS. Probably because of the Springsteen show. Some markets can support stadium shows (i.e., Meadowlands). Buffalo cant. Did they even shoot for the U2 show? Who knows? I just dont see a lot of potential in RWS hosting large-scale events outside of football. Give me some examples of what events you think fit into a stadium-sized footprint? There aren't many, or else you'd hear more about them. Kenny Chesney and Tim McGraw are doing stadiums next year. I'm sure they wont come after they were arrested at RWS in 2000 during the George Straight tour. Stadium shows (and most other events) simply have no future at RWS. The mgmt team is better off focusing on other issues.

OMG! Sir, please. The population of what is considered to be "Western NY," is more like 1.1 million. Sounds like you're including an area that just stops short of Syracuse. Why not include Toronto in those figures? Dont even get me started on why fans did not buy tix for late-season games. You must have been sleeping in a cave the last ten years. Folks on this board and most avid Bills fans remember a few years back when the team went 5-0 and then missed the playoffs. Mid-level and casual fans will no longer pay to watch a non-playoff team in 20 degree weather.

Just curious. Has anyone seen anything that points to Toronto, Ontario, or the Canadian Federal govt providing the money for this lavish new facility? I have no doubt that the NFL will not move into Rogers Center with the intent of staying there long-term. http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2010/02/05/nfl-commish-toronto-has-stadium-issue/ A new stadium in Toronto would easily pass the $1 billion mark and could surpass the cost of Cowboys Stadium. There is NO WAY that such a facility would be built solely with private money. It would require massive amounts of public money to get done. I think it's safe to say that there is a very vocal and large-numbered group of folks in Canada that absolutely refuses to provide public dollars to support private sports businesses. This is no slam-dunk. Even if they get a $350 million loan from the NFL, they have a long way to go and I just dont see Ontario signing up for a $500 million+ tax bill for the NFL. I dont think TO is the front-runner that many think. They have some big hurdles to overcome and the world's economy is not about to improve any time soon. When RW does pass on, he NFL will have a hard time finding a buyer that can buy the team for $800 million AND get a new stadium financed somewhere with nothing but public tax dollars. If the Bills are going anywhere, it's LA. They are way ahead of TO in the stadium dept. They just need a team to buy and so far SD, MIN, and OAK all say they are not selling. I suppose JAX is the only other possibility to go to LA.

funny. that's my original prediction from the first week. i think we can do better than that though

REALLY hate to say it, but this year is likely over. They'll go 8-8 or maybe 9-7 and will again miss the playoffs. Good side is that this truly was a rebuilding year and not a farce like the past ten+ years. They have a good base and will be true contenders next season. 11/20 @ Miami Dolphins - W 11/27 @ New York Jets - L 12/04 Tennessee Titans - pick 12/11 @ San Diego Chargers - L 12/18 Miami Dolphins - W 12/24 Denver Broncos - W 1/01 @ New England Patriots - L If they pick up the Titans win, they go 9-7 and will miss the playoffs again. Just dont see them winning anymore away games this season other than Miami. I dont think 10-6 will get them there either, so I think we're done for this year.

This is in the believe it or not category. My mom used to work intl currency at the Marine Midland tower. We used get autographed Sabres pictures, tickets, etc. We also got a lot of Braves tix. The biggest memory was getting into the aud early against the Rockets and watching Calvin Murphy shooting around. I was standing court side and he invited me to come onto the court and shoot some baskets. I was a fat, slow 12 yr old and was unable to even hit the rim. but that's something I'll never forget. I loved the Braves. My dad and I used to go to little 3 games at the aud all the time. I saw Ernie D play for Providence before he ever made the Braves.

No doubt about it. I was responding to the notion of a new domed stadium. Or any *new* stadium for that fact. They have to keep RWS safe and comfortable. As far as a HOF or other amenities are concerned, I'm on the fence about those if they come out of taxpayers pockets.

51 yrs old. I went to games at the Rockpile and the first game at RWS. RWS is built like a tank. No need for a new stadium anytime soon. There's no money to pay for a new one anyway. NYC got it's stadiums and they blew their wad on those. I think the plan is to keep RWS going for at least another 20 years. The State is almost insolvent, cant meet it's pension obligations, and is held back by unions and cronyism. Investments of this magnitude are limited to NYC. Unless a private developer steps up (highly unlikely), RWS will be going strong for many more years to come. Sure, they'll have to put 100s of millions into it over time, but that's easier for the State to swallow. You wont be seeing any Citi Fields or new Yankee stadiums being built in Buffalo. As far as it becoming the Fenway of the NFL, I think that's entirely possible given the state of the State, national, and global economies. Anyone that thinks this economy is going to ever return to the late 90s is dreaming.

Why do people even respond to this idiocy? * The area is not getting a dome. * The area is not getting ANY new sports facilities probably in our lifetimes * The area is going to shat itself when the Bills tell the county and State that they want $200 mil for RWS improvements or else they wont sign a lease * How will the State continue to pay the pensions of State workers if it buys a new stadium? Listen, giving this guy three+ pages of responses is ludicrous. First, domes suck big time. Second, the Falls is a sh*thole on the US side. No casino, stadium, convention center, etc is ever going to change that. The State will NEVER invest that kind of money upstate. It has never happened before and it wont happen in the future. Please stop responding to this post and move on to more legitimate discussions.

Yes, the lease comes into play and we dont yet fully know what they intend to do. The County is in no position to give the team anything, so that's an easy one. However, my follow-up then asks the question...where will they go if they dont get everything they want from the State? I'm not saying give them nothing, but I am saying that this should be well thought out before checks are signed. LA and TO are the obvious possibilities for a move, but neither has an NFL-level stadium. This is a big deal. Both stadium ideas in LA are tied to a partial sale of the team to the stadium developer. This of course gets very dicey with Ralph's eventual demise and the complexities involved in billion dollar deals and estates. TO would likely be forced to build a new stadium and I'm not convinced that the people of Ontario really love the NFL that much to see their taxes skyrocket to get a team. The State has to offer up something to keep the team in the stadium. But when I hear $100 mil being floated, red lights flash that it's got to be more than what is absolutely needed. Let's see what they come up with and talk again.

You're right. If you've never read the Field of Schemes site, you should check it out. There are tons of examples of billionaires trying to fleece the public to finance sports buildings based on the argument that they fill government coffers for the benefit of all. They dont. I'm not some radical hippie. I'm a sports fan and a season ticket holder. I believe in the community spirit of sports and I'm willing to pay my fair share. However, I think the veil has been pulled back and the time has come to call the bluff of these guys. The days of blackmailing cities is over. Where will the Bills go? Toronto? LA? HA!. LA cant get a stadium built and the NFL wont give TO a team unless they commit to a new building. Aint gonna happen in my opinion. Let's take the NHL. I suppose Hamilton would steal the Sabres in a heartbeat. But where else? Quebec? No arena. KC? Yeah, right. Portland? Come on. The NBA. OMG, that league is in trouble with what they have now. MLB? Where? That league is maxed out. Oakland plays in a dump and Tampa is a playoff team with the worst attendance in the league. They're toast. I have no agenda. I dont work in a union and I dont work for the govt. I say F**k RW. If BUF is not good enough, leave. Take all of the EXPENSES that go with the team with you. That's right. It costs us money to keep that stadium going year round and on game days. Look, I know it's fun. I get it. But it's not worth the money compared to so many other UPSTATE needs. F**K downstate. Time to put State money into upstate that will make a difference. $100 mil for RWS? I dont think so. Vote none of the above in 2011/2012.

Absolutely. There are intangibles. I have no issue with keeping the place up in order to keep the team viable. I just think it's obvious that RW is playing up the City's love for the Bills to get more than is needed. Let's keep the infrastructure sound. Let's improve the bathrooms. I'm even for adding permanent bathrooms to the tailgating scene. However, basic infra, and inside and outside toilets dont come close to costing $50-$100 mil. I'd like to see a detailed breakdown of what they intend to do. Either way, they want improvements that go far beyond the basics to keep the place in decent shape. LET'S GO BILLS!!

Oh boy. Here we go again. Sports teams generate so much income for the State that taxpayers should be glad to hand over their money to support them. blah blah. Let's think about it and use the Bills as an example... The Bills leave and... 1) Everyone stops drinking 2) No one drives anywhere anymore 3) Economic activity in the State is devastated by the loss of Bills merchandise sales There have been tons of well-researched articles that show that the economic benefits of sports teams do NOT offset huge investments by State governments in said teams. i.e., http://www.fieldofschemes.com/ It's real simple...Joe Six-pack has X amount of dollars to spare on Bills-related spending every year. The Bills leave and he simply spends his money on other things. He still drives. He still drinks. He buys Sabres merch instead, etc, etc. Disposable income will be spent regardless of whether it's on a sports team, on trips to NYC, or on a new car. The only counter-argument is if Joe starts taking out-of-state vacations with that money and NY loses out. This is exactly what people like RW want you to believe. Take care of me or else I'll take the team away and your economy will be devastated. BS people! The only people that truly get screwed are the part-time vendors at the stadium. Labatts will still sell tons of beer and Sahlens will still sell tons of hot dogs. If your job is not impacted, then you still have the same amount of money you had before they left and you will spend that money on something else if not the Bills. Start insisting on accountability from your State govt or else the economy of the State will be devastated and not from the loss of the Bills. On a side note, I agree that the State needs to invest "some" money on stadium upkeep. However, $50-$100 million is not upkeep. It's improvements.