billsfan89
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Posts posted by billsfan89
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Isn't HGH naturally occuring in the body?
Yeah but if you get unnaturally higher levels than you can heal quicker and get bigger than you normally would have. The reason it doesn't come up in the standard urine test is because it is in the body and urine can't show if those levels are higher than normal.
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As I said before, I'm sure the league has more qualified people than you or I looking into this, and they'll act appropriately. There's not all that much to be gained from allowing this guy back into the league, especially since his best days are almost certainly behind him. And there certainly is a risk of losing advertising $ from sponsors scared to be associated with a league that would reinstate Vick, whether you see it or not.
Nobody is saying they'll stop making money, only that it's possible they'll make less with him around, and that he's not worth the risk.
Its a respectable argument but my thought process is one that if all the crap that has happened to NFL players hasn't slowed down the leagues popularity than the Vick situation won't hurt them either. If Vick has a partnership with the humane society than that takes a lot of steam out of the protesters from more unpopular groups like PETA.
Once again who here would stop watching the Bills if Vick was allowed to play? Also if Goodell was to suspend him I would be shocked if Goodell didn't say it was for at least in part moral reasons.
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No team has actually said they want to hire him as of yet but going by that argument, if OJ Simpson or Rae Carruth finished their sentences and wanted to come back in the league, do you think that should be allowed, too?
I truly can't understand how you seem to think that someone who intentionally and willfully tortures and slaughters the best friends of a little kid isn't worse than someone who unintentionally killed someone in a car accident
Sorry if I think a man who takes part in an act that directly could kill a human being is just as bad as someone who kills animals. Because of Leonard Little a woman lost a son and a man will never get to live out his life. Because of Vick a kid lost a hypothetical dog when he could just have easily gotten another one. How many kids get pit bulls? Vick didn't break into kids houses and take their pit bulls. Little went behind the wheel of car when he knew he shouldn't have why shouldn't he drive drunk because he could easily kill someone in doing so.
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seeking employment is one thing...but why does that employment have to be in the NFL? He was an average QB on his best days anyway and was going downhill before he got caught. I'm sure there's something else he's qualified to do....you know, other than a life-long criminal. The league's image and bottom line would suffer if he's reinstated...protests, riots, possible death threats...and if you don't see any of that happening, it's time to broaden your scope ...I've seen a lot of people who want to see him dead and while I think death is too good for him, I can certainly understand why people wish that
The leagues bottom line won't suffer. The petition to ban Vick has like 25000 signs and who know how many of those aren't doubles. Petitions to bring back canceled TV shows get more signs. How many football fans are going to stop watching football because of Vick?
And Death would be Good for him. I understand wanting him to be in jail for life but wanting him dead. He never killed a human being or molested a child. I am not blind to the outrage but I just don't think the outrage is as widespread as you think.
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You keep going back to Little, and I'll keep telling you that Goodell doesn't have the retroactive right to banish someone whose crime was committed EIGHT YEARS before he became commissioner. Why don't we talk about guys who have seen his version of justice?
Like Odell Thurman, who hasn't played in three years for the high crimes of two failed drug tests and a DUI arrest?
Here's the Roger Goodell I saw last summer: http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=67753
And Vick can earn his livelihood in any number of ways. The NFL is a privately-run business, and they can hire -- or choose not to -- by any rules they care to make, as long as they don't run afoul of EEOC laws. Guess he should have considered that before committing a felony.
But a team does want to hire him and there are players in the league who have done things just as bad as him so morality goes out the window. And I think Vick should be allowed in because Little and all sorts of scumbags are in the league so why single him out. I don't blame Goodell for Little I just say you can't play the morality card when wife beaters and Little were given second chances with little or no punishment.
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If they wanted to send a message, they could've actually prosecuted him instead of let him plea bargain his way out of serious prison time
For one thing, there were some pretty serious results on what Vick did...unless you hate animals or little kids (a lot of little kids lost their best friends to this psychotic monster), I don't see how that can be ignored.
For another, when the intent is as heinous and sickening as Vick's intent was, a message has to be sent. Serial killers start out like Vick
Well I think the prosecution was worried that Vick might find a fall guy or weasel his way out of it through a legal technicality. So they took a deal that sent him to jail for about two years. Vick did a horrible thing but I don't know how many of those dogs were stolen from little children (it doesn't make it better he still hurt them but lets not make Vick out to be a guy who stole dogs from children).
Lets also not make Vick out to be a guy who was on his way to being a serial killer. He was wrapped up in a culture that accepted it (once again that doesn't excuse his actions) so I don't think he was going to be a serial killer. Vick is a monster for what he did but not to the level you are insinuating. And I hate to defend him at all.
So I don't hate little kids I just think that the NFL isn't above the justice system in terms of morality and the fact that they let Little and all those other scumbags play shows it. So why is Vick the one to pay the Piper because PETA makes a big stink.
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He only got a third of a prison sentence if it had been 1 dog...he was responsible for torturing and killing hundreds of dogs..they seized 70 dogs that had been brutalized when they busted him. He got nothing more than a slap on the wrist as far as jail time. And as far as money, considering all the money he made off of his organized criminal activities, it's kinda hard to justify feeling bad for him.
Now THIS is a sentence more appropriate
http://www.itchmo.com/man-receives-102-yea...ed-charges-3856
So the NFL knows better than the American justice system. A 102 year sentence for fighting dogs is the other extreme. I don't know what the average for the sentences are for dog fighting but Vick had better legal representation than most would. I think if a rich non-famous guy was in the same situation he would have gotten not that much worse of a sentence than Vick. If those guys had top of the line lawyers and a relatively clean record they don't get more than 3-5 years in jail.
And I don't feel sorry for the guy its just that I feel more in line to respect the right of a person who has served time in prison to seek employment if anyone wants to hire him and not having a league say sorry you can't even though it won't hurt our business.
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While it doesn't excuse what Little did or what Stallworth did, DWI resulting in manslaughter is an accident..it's the result of some serious ignorance, yes, but still not intentional. Vick knowingly and willfully broke the law for a period of 6 years. He knew he was breaking the law, lied about it, and got a slap on the wrist for it because he plea-bargained his way out of a real sentence. Honestly, I think his celebrity is a big part of why he got off so easily. If the prosecutor hadn't been afraid to do his job, Vick would still be in prison
Its not like he served a few months in jail. He served almost two years in jail and is still under house arrest. I think that every time you get into a car drunk you are doing something you know will put your life and the life of others in danger.
Its just as bad even though the intent isn't there.
As for your celebrity argument I don't know how much it influenced either way. Some said that they went after Vick as a way to send a message about the prosecution of dog fighting. Others said the same thing you said so who knows which way it went.
Its not the intent its the result. Little's actions ended up killing a man even though that wasn't the intent he still knew it was a very realistic possibility of his actions. On top of Vick losing his rep and the jail time he is bankrupt. I think he has gotten punished pretty hard for what he did At least thats what I think.
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"The fact is who is Roger Goodell ..."?
He's the man in charge. Judge, jury, executioner. And the NFLPA signed off on the deal.
I am not arguing the NFL's ability to suspend Vick but more so the morality of a league saying a man can't earn his lively hood even though a team wants to give him a contract simply because they can. If morality was the issue than Leonard Little and all the guys who beat their wives shouldn't be allowed in either. Its not the business side either because as I pointed out in my earlier post the NFL is a juggernaut who won't loose money no matter what happens.
The only reason he will suspend Vick is because he wants to show the other players that he has the hammer. So is that really a good reason to keep a guy form making his lively hood after he has paid so much in terms of jail time and money?
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That logic wouldn't hold up in any court in the country.
Fact: a Personal Conduct Policy currently exists.
Fact: by committing a felony, Vick violated it.
And one more fact, after reading your latest edit: Little WAS suspended for eight games in 1999.
So why couldn't Vick have served his suspension in jail? Why tack on a suspension for a life time or a season after the fact? The fact is who is Rodger Goodell to suspend a guy who payed his debt to society according to the American justice system. Its just not fair to the NFL players that the person you appeal to in the NFL is Rodger Goodell the same person who gave you the suspension in the first place.
As for Little he was suspended half a season people are asking for Vick to never play again or be suspended for a whole year. So if they gave Vick 8 games there would still be protests.
They gave Little the most they could but if there was a public out cry like there is with Vick they would have given him a ban for a year or a lifetime , I honestly think using the its a privilege not a right theory that Little should have never been allowed to play again.
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As for the financial incentives / disincentives, you're missing the point. Does one team have the right to sign Vick to make an extra million $, if it costs each other team in the league a quarter of a million $ in lost tv / advertising revenue? And I'm not saying that it would or would not be the case. All I'm saying is that the NFL has people far more qualified than you or I looking at this, and if they decide that it would hurt the league overall, they have every right to keep him out.
As for it being about Goodell cleaning up the league, I partially agree, but again, it has to be looked at from a financial perspective. The whole reason the NFL is so worried about cleaning up the league's reputation is to keep the revenue flowing. So far, it hasn't been greatly impacted by player behavior, but that doesn't mean it might not have a negative impact, especially if things continue as is or get worse.
If Goodell decides that having Vick in the league is what is best for the league, then he will do that. I don't have a problem with it. But you keep arguing that Goodell doesn't have the right to ban him. You may not like it, but he absolutely does have that right, and it's been granted to him with consent of the owners and players. Get over it.
I understand your argument of if it hurts the NFL's business overall he should not be allowed in for purely business reasons. But do you really think that the NFL would not do great business if Vick was allowed back? If Vick did commercials for the humane society and became the spokes person against dog fighting than ( which he has agreed to do a ad campaign with the humane society ) than how much will PETA be able to damage the NFL's business.
The NFL won't loose money because of Vick because the NFL is a juggernaut that can't be stopped. We all tune in to see these HGH monsters take the field and kick the crap out of each other. So who cares if a dog fighter ( who spent his time in jail for what he did ) joins the wife beaters, drunk drivers, illegal gun carrying and other scumbags in doing so. The NFL is full of scumbags but we all tune in to watch.
There has been so much that could have derailed the NFL as far as PR but it still year after year breaks it own records. Its a multi billion dollar industry ten times over and the Vick situation is one that won't harm it one bit. I just find it a little hypocritical to ban a guy for dog fighting when he payed with prison time and bankruptcy while there are all these other shady characters in the NFL playing without any sniff of public out cry.
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Where did you get that idea? To clarify my point: if Goodell and his more stringent policy had been in place when Little slaughtered Susan Gutweiler, he may not have found it quite as easy to get back into the league.
Yeah but you are justifying his being able to play by the fact that Little did what he did (which was just as bad as what Vick did) when the league had no strict conduct policy in effect his actions were not punished because of the time he committed them. So if Vick did his actions in 1998 when there was no conduct policy the NFL would not suspend him after his jail sentence but because of the public out cry they would have found a way but with Little they didn't do much because it wasn't about the morality but about PR.
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Last I checked, ethnicity doesn't violate the conduct policy. Felonies do. And Goodell wasn't in office -- and the current version of the policy didn't yet exist -- when Little re-entered the league.
So by that logic if Vick did this in 1998 he should be reinstated without question? Little still killed that guy but it wasn't against the rules of the NFL so he should play? I am not saying give Vick an exemption from the rule but just that his time in prison should serve as his suspension and the fact that he is bankrupt is another punishment he has been given.
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Saying that everyone deserves a second chance is fine, but what does that mean? It means they are allowed back into society, and will play by society's rules. In our society, that means that a company can hire them, or refuse to hire them if they feel it will be bad for business.
I'm not asking for the guy to be punished further, and I really think too much of this conversation has focused on punishment, which I also feel should be left to the courts. All I'm saying is that if Goodell thinks it will hurt the NFL financially to have him back, then he should not allow him back. It's not about Michael Vick getting punished, or PETA, or anything other than the league making money.
But if someone has a skill set that is so rare and could make said company money than a company might decide to hire him leave it up to the teams on whither or not Vick has value to the league . Mike Tyson was allowed to box with no public outrage what so ever after he was convicted for raping a women. If vick was an average player no one would want him and he would be out of the league. But because he is a good player teams like the Rams want to take a chance on him.
And the NFL lost not a dime due to the Michael Vick situation. The NFL is an unstoppable industry Vick wouldn't hurt the bottom line at all. The image of the NFL is terrible but on Sunday we all tune in to watch so I don't buy the argument that its about the league making money. If Goodell banned Vick it would be to send a message to the other players that he has the hammer and as window dressing that he is cleaning up the image of the league.
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You're really reaching with the Asians / Mexicans analogy. But even so, if the NFL won the right to keep out Maurice Clarett because he was too young, they can sure as hell keep out MV because he's too much of a felon.
Too much of a felon. He served his time in jail. What ever happened to if you pay your debt to society you can re-enter and make good? If a team wants to hire him than why not let them. As for image why should you let PETA ban a guy from the league. If Vick is willing to do psa's and work with the humane society (which he has committed to do) what more do you want from him?
Everyone deserves a second chance once they have payed their dues. Is jail time and the loss of a 100 million dollar contract is not enough of a penance the American Justice system thinks so.
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http://www.petitiononline.com/Banvick1/petition.html
He went to college...didn't he get a degree in something other than basket-weaving? No one is saying he has to do anything menial...but he was in organized crime for over 6 years...someone that low doesn't deserve the privilege (it's not a right) to make millions of dollars to play a game.
Its is a right to play in the NFL to an extent. The NFL can't say no Asians or Mexicans in the league because they do not deserve the privilege. So to a degree its a privilege but if you pay the dues and have the ability than as long as a team wants you, you have the right to play in the league.
Goodell should only have the right to suspend the guys who haven't spent time in jail as a way to penalize players for their actions that did not result in any jail time. The United States justice system punished Vick why should the NFL levy any more punishment on top of jail time and taking away his big contract.
Like I said if you want to ban Vick you should ban all the wife beaters and drunk drivers because those scumbags don't deserve the privilege to play in the NFL. Where is the ban Leonard Little petition?
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my condolences to St. Louis...
anyone who willingingly kills 10's - 100's of dogs for profit and entertainment (especially when sed person is a multi-millionaire in the NFL) does not deserve another chance.
I will be rooting for his demise every second he is in the NFL.
he has his 2nd chance, he is out of jail, but I do not beleive he deserves to be re-instated in the NFL... He can go wash dishes or tend bar somewhere
What ever happened to capitalism. If a team wants to employ him knowing that his set of skills is rare and can bring a team a win or two more than why should the NFL not be able to not let that team hire him if he has spent his time in jail for the sins he committed. He lost almost two years of his life in jail and about 100 million dollars on his contract. He is bankrupt and he will forever be branded as a dog killer what more do you want him to loose.
Where were all these protesters when Mike Tyson was allowed to box for millions of dollars after he raped a women ( which in my opinion is worse than what Vick did ). Do you root for Leonard Little to fail because he killed a person because he was to lazy to get a cab instead of driving home drunk. Honestly there are so many sumbags in the NFL. People who risk the lives of others by driving home drunk or beat their wives are all around the NFL.
Vick should not be singled out. What he did was horrible but he paid for it and went to jail for it ( somethings most NFL players don't do ). The league should let him play if a team wants him. I won't root for him but I won't root against him either. I just hope for his own sake he realizes that he has a second chance something most convicts don't get and he shouldn't blow it.
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QB: jay cutler
RB: brian westbrook
FB: brandon jacobs
WR: randy moss
WR: andre johnson
WR3: lee evans
WR4: steve smith
WR5: devin hester
TE: jason witten
OT: joe thomas
OT: jason peters
OG: chris snee
OG: steve hutchinson
C: shaun o hara
LE: mario williams
RE: julius peppers
DT: albert haynesworth
DT: john henderson
LB: demarcus ware
LB: patrick willis
LB: james harrison
FS: ed reed
SS: troy polamalu
CB: nhamdi asomugha
CB: terence newman
Anyone else build at least somewhat realistic rosters with a team that can get drafted in one fantasy draft or fit under the cap. Hey my Madden team is just the best players at every position how awesome for me to think of that. Not knocking your team ( they are very good ) its just there is no way you could trade for or draft all those players and fit them under the cap.To me at least It just takes the fun out of the game when all you can do is shut off the cap and put all the great players on your team.
Another thing I like to do is take a team and trade all of its good players for first round picks tank the season ( For some reason the team always go 7-9 ) and build with the draft. Although Madden recently has a weird draft were there are like five great quarterbacks and 5 great corner backs. Than there are like no other good positions out there. In Madden 05-07 you could get a good team with the draft alone. Almost every position you could get good players
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it would be like the greatest show on turf except Vick isnt any good, they dont have any good receivers and their offensive line is horrible....other then that yeah they would be just like the greatest show on turf
Well Vick can run and is a better thrower than all wildcat QB's ( who are usually just running backs ) and the o-line is really good. They added the best left tackle in the draft and the best center in free agency. They also return a good guard in Jacob Bell and a good right tackle in Alex Barron. So not quite greatest show on turf but at least they would have a show on turf. Vick and Steven Jackson running behind a good o-line that will only get better.
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Well the Rams are a team that I could see taking a chance on a guy like Vick. Their defense is still a work in progress and despite their really good offensive line they need a few skill position guys to provide a spark. Vick plus Steve Jackson in a wildcat it could help the offense put up some points. Without Holt, and an aging Marc Bulger ( who was a little over rated in the first place. ) the Rams offense needs a spark and Vick brings that.
Spagnolo is a coach who is beloved by his players ( on the Giants he was the good cop to Tom Coughlins bad cop ) and I think that if he is confident in his locker room to rally behind Vick so he might take a chance in order to make more of an impact in his first year and build a rep as the guy who revived Michael Vick.
It would be a good fit in my opinion. With Jason Smith, Jacob Bell, Jason Brown and Alex Barron the Rams offensive line is staked and Vick and Jackson in the Wild cat running behind that line look out.
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This is off of 2009's roster of course and fantasy draft, I build with the o-line and the D-line. Joe Thomas at Left tackle, Nick Mangold at Center, convert Brian Mckinne to Right tackle, and than pick up a good tackle (Alex Barron usually ) to convert to guard and round out the line with Brad Butler.
With the defense go with Vince Wilfork, Tommy Harris, and a pass rusher like Jaraed Allen or Terrel Suggs. Than I usually go with a good corner like Darelle Rives.
As for skill positions I go with Lee Evans and Trent Edwards and a good tight end like Owen Daniels, Running back I usually go with some one like the rookie from the Titans.
As for the rest of the positions I just round out the roster with who is best available and maybe trade a second round pick to fill a need. I build a team around the way I play Madden which is usually very conservative running a lot with short passes. As for defense I like to be able to rush the passer with my front four. Edwards is accurate and having Evans and a good tight end makes him better. As well as the fact that he gets all kinds time with that line.
Having good defensive lineman is the way to build a defense. Wilfork stops the run while Tommy Harris is able to shoot the gap and Jared Allen or Suggs rushes from the outside. Having those three guys a good corner like Revis makes the rest of the defense look good. Its hard to get all these guys but I have with the right picks and luck been able to get all of these players in one shot.
I know a lot of people like speed but if you can over power an opponent you can control the clock and keep the other teams offense on the field you can win easily. Also on defense if you have a quick line it helps to neutralize speed.
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You can blame the QB all you want, but they are only as good as the O line allows. If the QB is under duress in less then 3 seconds he cannot get the ball out in time. When given time Bledsoe would tear opponents apart and the Bills would win. I can recall Mularkey stressing the point that Bledsoe needed to get rid of the ball in under 4 seconds, but then the OC didn't have the proper pass patterns set up for that to succeed.
If the offensive line fails the entire offense fails,the best teams have the best offensive lines. That is one area the Patriots are working on to keep Brady up this season. The Pats line failed them in their last SB and failed them last year as Brady was knocked out for the season. They Pats had a veteran O line, now you think the Bills with a bunch of new players will do better then last season ??
Well I did point to the o-line in the second part of the post as another big problem. It just sucks that Peters had to have that holdout last year. It also sucks that most of the big money we put into it (Dockery and Co)did not pay off. Now we made right moves on Butler and Walker as well as developing Peters.
But we at least tried this year putting day one picks into the line. But even with a great o-line JP might still have not been a promise land type of QB. Trent might not be that either but the jury is at least still out on him. QB is essential to an offense the Vikings are proof of that. You need a QB and a QB could make an o-line look good. Kurt Warner showed this year that if you have a good QB he could make a mediocre o-line look good. If you have a quick release and make good reads you can make up for some of the mistakes your o-line makes.
Another issue that has made this offense so anemic is the lack of a number 2 option at wide receiver since Moulds lost it. With TO we have at least addressed that for the time being. ANOTHER issue is that there hasn't been a real tightend in God knows how long. So when a team has issues with their QB, o-line, tightend, and number two threat at WR how good could it be? Besides Running back and Lee Evans what has been a consistent strength of the offense.
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You're kidding right? The NFL knows what kind of aftershave these guys are using!
You are fooling yourself if you think that the NFL is on the level. About 75% and probably more of the players are on HGH or some other kind of performance enhancers. Men should not be 6 foot 5 inches tall and able to carry 320 pounds and run a forty in under five seconds. The NFL can only test for what is collectively bargained to be in their drug testing policy. In that policy they take a lot of urine tests but HGH doesn't come up in urine tests.
The only way to get accurate HGH test is to take blood samples (some even argue blood samples aren't completely accurate). The NFL players didn't agree to take blood tests because they know that a lot of players use HGH for bulking up and recovering from injuries. The NFL's drug policy isn't that great. It weeds out steroid users but all the guys who were on steroids moved on to HGH. We will see if the players give in to blood testing in the next CBA but I doubt it.
It sucks but there is just too much money on the line in professional sports to not have cheating. If you were in the NFL and you could take a drug to recover faster between games and you can't get caught using it why would you not take it.
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Well the reason the Bills offense has not been all that good since 2003 has been because of the QB situation. In 2003 we had Bledsoe turn in a really great first half of the season. Since than Bledsoe has gotten old, JP never really developed the decision making and option reading ability that he needed to match his physical skills, and Trent who looked like the QB we envisioned last year got injured and never really shook it off.
So this year we added TO and reshaped our o-line because of the Peters situation and Trent hopefully comes back at full health. Who knows if it will work out but it falls on Trent and his line to protect him and open up lanes for our good running backs. I hope Trent works out but as much as I like what he brings in the form of his intelligence and accuracy but his arm strength and injury history do concern me.
Another reason for our ineffective offense is because of Mike Williams and the o-line. Other than Williams the team never spent high picks on the o-line. Peters emerged but he handled getting his raise wrong and the Bills did not want to extend a guy who didn't want to be here and turned in a sub par 2008 year in pass protection. But before Peters left the Bills decided to bring in free agents around Peters which was ineffective. Langston Walker was a good fit on the right side but guys like Dockery, Fowler, and Whittle were busts.
So I hope Wood, Levitre, and Butler at his new position emerge as good starters and we build a good o-line around those guys. It was refreshing to see that the Bills were spending high picks on the o-line. However I did think they should have trade up for Oher in the draft but hopefully they made the right call on that one ( although if a guy like Ozzie Newsome trades up for him it really makes you think that Oher may be really good epically at the value they got for him. )
Rams "Genuine Interest" in Vick?
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Yeah good point but if he was to make it for a lifetime he would say it was for morality reasons.