Magox
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Posts posted by Magox
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The debate about Peters' worth and value aside, this to me is more of an issue that has to be resolved in the CBA, where the union and owners agree to cap rookie salaries and signing bonuses so that guys who have never set foot on an NFL field are not making more than established stars.
Problem is the union wants nothing to do with it, because of situations like this. Long gets his massive, undeserved rookie contract and Peters and as a result all the other established LT's can squawk and push for new contracts, raising the bar for everyone.
I couldn't agree with you more. It screws up the balance of justified pay. It's ridiculous for players that have never played one single down to get paid higher than any other player to have ever played the game of that same position.
How can this be??
Let me repeat that again, A player who has never played one single professional down, can get offered a contract more than any other player of that position in the entire history of the game.
That makes no sense.
They do have to have a rookie cap of some sort. It's just ridiculous.
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I agree completely, but it's two different worlds. He's not trying to get more money because there is such a difference between the way that he can live/retire making $4MM, $8MM, or $11.5MM/yr. It's more of an ego thing. He believes that he's the best lineman in the game and wants to be paid that way. If the going rate was $8MM, he'd be going for $8MM+. It just happens that the going rate is now $11.5MM, so he's going for that.
I can't say I blame the guy, because there isn't a player in the league who would accept that big of a discrepancy ($4MM vs $10+MM) in what they are being paid vs. what they are worth.
It's not an ego thing.
Remember, It's his super high powered Agent that is advising him, insuring him, telling him what he believes is best for Jason Peters.
Whether you guyz like it or not, he has made two probowls and two second team All Pro's in his first two years. He is young, and they want him to get paid more than Jake Long or Jordan Gross who havn't accomplished as much in their careers.
It is a matter of respect, not ego. The agent is pushing for this deal, as a good agent should do. They do have a strong argument.
To pay him $8 Million, when a rookie football player who never even stepped on the field is making over $10 Million a year, is a slap in the face.
I just don't understand why people don't see this.
Having said that, The Bills have the leverage. They should offer him a deal of $10 Million gauranteed with incentives that could take him up to $12 Million a year.
Even if the Bills hold firm to their offer of $8.5 Million a year, which I believe is a slap in the face, and decide not to trade him, it will still be hard for Peters to not accept the deal.
Here's why;
1. His options are that he can sit out the remaining two years, which is very unlikely, he would lose out on $8Million and we know he won't do that.
2. He doesn't accept the offer and he either holds out or doesn't in either case he receives $4Million a year for 2 years, receiving $8Million. By the time his contract expires he will be pushing on 30 years old and it will be more difficult to get a huge up front guaranteed contract.
3. He accepts the $8.5 Million a year, over the first two years of the contract he is gauranteed to make at least $9Million dollars more than as opposed to not accepting it. Which that is a lot of money to pass up on.
4. If the Bills are offering a 6 year contract of around $50 Million you have to figure that $25 Million of that is gauranteed. As of right now he has $8Million coming to him.
Now what the Bills could do to appease him is give him a contract where he could opt out after 3/4 years. It wouldn't make sense for them to make it after 2, because they all ready have him for 2 years.
Trading Peters Will be tough to do. I am pretty sure that Philadelphia wouldn't give up both of their #1 picks. His value is not as high as you think, for the simple fact of the money that he is demanding. I just can't see Philadelphia trading both their #1 picks and then giving him a $12Million dollar a year contract. I just don't see it.
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I keep reading , not just from the orignal post, but in other sources that Crowell is still not cleared to play. How is he not cleared to play yet? Did he have a more major surgery?
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I think the odds are pretty good that the Bills are exploring these types of scenarios already, behind the scenes, if for no other reason than to help them do "market research" to see how much Peters is truly worth paying should they decide to keep him. You owe it to yourself not to enter high stakes negotiations in a vacuum without understanding the current market.
And I think he is worth a boatload on the open market. A young franchise Pro Bowl LT doesn't come on the open market very often and I don't think 3 or 4 first day picks are out of the question. The issue is not what he's worth to the Bills, but what he is worth to other teams - that is what drives the market.
If you are the Bills and find that the street FA you picked up a few years ago has turned into the golden ticket, you have to look at trading that for the chance to fill out your roster with quality at several positions.
His talent is worth a lot, but when you combine that with an $11 Million + dollar a year contract, all of a sudden the market gets a lot smaller as does his value.
Remember, part of the equation of value is not just talent, but it's talent+price=value
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I really don't believe Philly is going to offer 2 1st round picks. I really don't. Probably a 1st and a 3rd.
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He's not worth 11.5mm. He had one good year 2 years ago and a down year last year. He's under contract for 2 more seasons so,he can take the Bills good will offer or leave it. IMO the FO has a good handle on the market and there's no need to overpay. Sorry, I like JP, but he hasn't earned or played up to the level to support 11.5m/yr. Also, it doesn't help that he's been hurt at the end of each of the last 2 seasons. That's too much money to tie up in a player who's starting to show injury concerns and inconsistent performance.
why do people keep saying this? I think they read it from what other people typed and then they believe it, then it sort of just feeds from itself.
2006 as a RT, 2007 LT. two good years, 1 subpar year 2008.
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Brown in my view is the most polished DE passrusher in the draft. He does remind me of Freeney as well, not as much explosion on the edge, but he has some amazing pass rushing moves, plus he has really thick legs sort of like Freeny's. Some people question his height, but I don't see it as an issue. I see him as a better 4-3 End then a 3-4 Edge rushing LB.
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Stop calling him "All Pro". Last time I looked he has NEVER been named to any of the "All Pro" teams. This is NOT the same as being named to the watered down Pro Bowl which has a bunch of substitutes after the players named originally, turn it down.
Ok. Did I say he was ALL PRO?
Before you type and offer your opinion on something, it may be wise to at least read what people write first, or at least comprehend what is written.
I mean, it does make sense doesn't it.
I said All Pro Talent.
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The guy barely breaks 5 seconds in the 40 yard dash. why would we spend the 11th pick in the draft on a big slow TE? Haven't we had our fill of guys like this arealdy?
oh ya, I forgot
The 40 time is what matters for a TE
I heard some of you say Cushing, if we had to go that route, which I really wouldn't want to, then I'd rather have Matthews. Great production, great bloodlines, and even faster, stronger, better vertical than Cushing. Don't be surprised to see him move way up the draft charts.
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And it was the Bills who paid RT Peters MORE than his market value when they saw potential in him and wanted to lock him up.
You're argument just proved my point. Peters will cry every time someone makes more than him. Yet he's done nothing to earn it. If he didn't wet his panties and hold out last year I'd have more respect for the guy. Instead he skipped the off-season workouts, skipped training camp, showed up fat and out of shape, and basically sucked all year until he broke a fingernail at the end of the season and sat out. And for a "elite" left tackle, Trent Edwards took more than his share of abuse by people Peters whiffed on. No thanks on Peters.
PTR
No Promo, your missing the whole argument. At least the angle that I am coming from.
The $4 Million dollar a year contract is hardly elite pay. He had 3 years left in his contract. Why doesn't that compute with you? You really expected him to play through that contract, with three years left, being the 5th highest paid lineman.
If you pay him $11 Million a year, now you are giving him Elite pay. That is what he is looking for. After that, that's it!
He won't ask for more. I know what your gonna say,
"how do you know he won't ask for more?" because that's it. It is ELITE pay. That's all they want, is to be paid accordingly.
Let's just make this easier.
If you were GM, and forget about trading him right now. Would you expect him to play out the remaining 2 years at less than $4Million a year?
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I just don't get it. I always liked Crowell, I saw him as a defensive strength on our team, and then all of a sudden...
poof.....
To me, keeping him makes a lot of sense. He knows the "Tampa 2" and is big and physical enough to play in other defenses as well. So just in case Jauron is gone next year, and a new defensive system is implemented, he would be good enough to most likely play in that system as well.
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Schobel has alot more success under his belt than Peters and at the time recieved a fair contract. The Bills have torn up two contracts in an attempt to pay Peters more. In return they have gotten a lengthy holdout, 11.5 sacks allowed, and demands to be the highest paid OL. He's a good player but doesn't want to be a Bill, IMO. It's a too big of a gamble on a guy with a questionable work ethic, coming off a subpar season.
I understand the argument on the other side.
I really do.
I just can't stand the thought of losing an All Pro Talent, when he is right here in our laps.
Don't we remember who our LT's before him were?
Just because we may get a draft pick for him doesn't insure we get a good lineman. We've been through it many times before.
It's worth the risk considering we know he has the ability. Let's not forget also, that in the three years he has played tackle, he played at a very high calibur in two of those years (2006, 2007).
It was ONLY last year, the year he sat out the entire mini camp and training camps (which no one who is thinking rationally can deny that played a role in his subpar year) where he didn't play that well by his standards.
So just speaking strictly facts here.
2 out of 3 years he played at top notch level
the only 1 year he didn't was the holdout year.
I think I would take my chances in signing him. He to me in my view, is worth the risk
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Exactly, Promo - and no matter what amount we offer, he'll piss and moan two years into the new deal and hold out again for more $$$$ while his level of play continues to decline.
Like I said in December, we've seen Peters play his last game in a Bills uniform. Best thing we could do now is trade him for some players & a bunch of draft picks, and laugh as we watch Peters' game slide downhill with a different team.
Ok, but it's fair to pay Kelsay $5 Million a year. It's fair to pay Schobel $9 Million a year. It's fair to pay.....
be realistic
He should be the highest paid lineman on the team.
It's just about paying him the correct value.
Is $4Million a year a fair contract for Peters?
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Prove to me that after the Bills cave once he wouldn't hold out every year another lineman got a bigger contract.
PTR
I can't prove it to you.
Just like the Dolphins can't prove that paying Jake Long $11 Million dollars a year is a good value, or that paying Dorsey $10 Million is or etc. etc. etc.
It's a risk
But I believe it's a risk worth taking. I don't have confidence that we can replace him with a good alternative. I don't have confidence that we can draft a comparable alternative. I am only going by our history.
Do you have confidence that we can?
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This is obviously a very touchy subject here.
There are strong arguments on both sides.
Me personally, I'm sick of looking for a good LT. I remember how difficult it was to find a good player to man that position. I remember time in and time out, how disgusted I was with our blocking, and how desperate I felt in wanting to find that much coveted LT.
Now he is here. We know he has the talent. Right in our laps. Can we really afford to lose that player again. Wouldn't it really suck if we traded him for a draft pick, our draft pick becomes a bust or mediocre and Peters goes on to have multiple ProBowl All Pro seasons?
I remember how bad our line was. Now we have him.
Of course there is the flip side. That we pay him and he becomes lethargic and never plays the way he did like in the 2006, 2007 seasons.
I believe it is worth the risk to pay him. Odds are, and heavy odds at that, that we won't be able to find someone of his calibur. Then we will be right back where we were before.
Desperate...
looking for that LT
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Maybe trading back into the late 1st round late 2nd round. We have done it before with McCargo and Poz, with mixed results. Guyz like Ayers, Maybin (if he falls far enough) or English could be someone to target. I would add Johnson to the mix, but I don't like him.
If not, second round guyz could be a Dennis Barwin, Shaugnessy or Sidbury. Personally I Like Sidbury, Barwin and Shaugnessy in that order for the second round pick.
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So the Bills should have paid Peters 10 million per year for the next five years, when they already had him under contract for 3 million for the next three years? Yeah Sully.....fuggin douche.
Normally you make good posts of what I have read. But this one wasn't one of your better one's.
Here's why.
It's not realistic, in a nutshell.
You can not expect for Peters to play out the remaining contract, when he had 3 years left on it last year, being the 5th highest paid lineman on the team, when he was arguably the best.
You realistically can not expect him to play through his contract without demanding a higher contract, considering he would of had to play out 3 more years.
Sully is right about one thing. We should of offered him this contract last year.
But i do agree with you
Sully is a douche
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You aren't missing anything. Even the Bills acknowledge that the man deserves a richer contract. The key thing to me is that both sides are talking and the front office is doing its part by putting its best foot forward and proceeding with an extension. In exchange, Peters should at the very least be willing to show up for OTAs and training camp this year.
I hope that the Bills don't even consider looking for a trade. Now of course, if a trade offer, that is too good to be true, is offered, then take it. But don't look to trade him.
The Bills FO has leverage on this deal. Offer him $10 Million with incentives that could make him the highest paid lineman. If he doesn't take it, then it will be his and our loss. We will get a player that may hold out and most likely not play as well as we would hope.
But most likely he will take the deal. Think about it.
We have the leverage. He can either take the deal, and instead of making $4Million a year he will make at least %150 more, or not take the deal and make the $4million.
He would be screwing himself by at least $13 Million over the next two years.
The Bills have the leverage!
As long as we don't actively shop him.
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Actually Long and Peters are just as accomplished: both only have had 1 good season.
Wrong!!!!
He had a very good year as a RT the year before
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I bet that this is just a smokescreen. I can't imagine that the Bills aren't going to address their DLine with their first pick at #11 unless they are considering to trade down.
Maybe.
But I really hope we get him.
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These are my top 5 and reasons behind. Rate yours.
#1. B.J. Raji - Raji would fit in anyone's defense. The guy is a game changer in the middle and along side of Stroud we would have one of the best interiors in the NFL.
#2. Brian Orakpo - Size, speed, strength, he has it all. He has a combination of moves that he uses to get to the QB effectively. I don't see him being any sort of a liability in the run game either. I think he could come in immediately supplanting Kelsay and would eventually take over Schobel's spot when he's cut or retires.
#3. Peria Jerry - Another disruptive force on the inside to team up with Stroud. Jerry has more quickness than Raji and is more of a penetrating DT. He blows up alot of plays in the backfield and gives teammates opportunities to make plays with his quick penetration through the line. He reminds me alot of Tommie Harris of the Chicago Bears.
#4. Michael Johnson - Athletic freak that can play the run, drop back in coverage, and get to the QB all at 6'7" and 270lbs. People say he only plays at one speed, was unproductive for his athletic ability, and whatever else they want, but I would take the guy on our DL over Kelsay, Denney, Ellis, or anyone else we have left to throw in there. I think he could end up being the best DE to come out of this draft, but it's up to how hard he'll work on the pro level. He could be the next Jason Taylor or Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, they seem to have the most similar skillsets to me.
#5. Everett Brown - He would provide the pass rushing ability that we need, but not sure how he would hold up against the bigger stronger OT's in the NFL on rushing plays. He had 26 bench press reps at the combine, but how would it trnslate on the field? I'm not sure. He reminds me of a young Strahan with his style of play, but is that what we would get?
An honorable mention in all of this would be Brian Cushing. Cushing had a solid combine, a solid career at USC, and we need a OLB. It wouldn't be a terrible pick, but just not one of the guys I would want at that slot. Funny, all of the guys I listed are on defense.
I like all the players you mentioned except Johnson. The Johnson pick I would despise!! Oh god, I really hope he is no where near our radar. I watch lots of ACC football as I am a Chapel Hill fan, and I would make it a point to watch him closely, cuz of our obvious needs for a passrushing DE. I just don't see it. He takes plays off, he looks lethargic, I just don't see anything about him other than his workout numbers. So I'd scratch him off.
1) Raji (Beast, love the idea of having him for the next 5 years, specially teamed up with Stroud. Would make it very tough to run against us, and would help in the pass rush, help collapsing pockets)
2) Everett Brown (Once again, ACC football, most polished DE I've seen this year. Has speed, swim, spin moves, big engine and great production)
3) Pettigrew (Most NFL ready player in the draft in my view. Devastating Blocker, good quickness, very soft hands and huge target. Immediate upgrade. The TE that we have lacked for the last 10 years)
4) Orakpo (Good size, good athleticism, Tenacious, Ok pass rushing moves, good engine. I think he will be good not great as a passrusher, and also good but not great against the run)
5) Mack ( I know people believe he is a reach, but I don't care. I think he will be a future probowl Center over the course of his career. He was the only player that came close to handling Raji's bull rush during the senior bowl, the most polished and well techniqued center in the draft. I think he would be another safe and productive pick)
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Just f-cking pay him and let's focus on the players that actually need to be replaced!
Most of you act like it's coming out of your pocket and not Ralph's. Why do you think we signed T.O.? The time to win is NOW. Ralph is 90 years old and i'm sure wants to win before he passes. Dick Mauron has to win this year or he's toast...getting rid of Peters now makes zero sense. Those of you who say he's not motivated...how the hell would you know? I'll leave that up to the Bills' to determine, because they are the only people with inside knowledge on the subject.
I guess i'm in the minority in saying sign him.
who gives a flying flip if we are in the minority. usually moving in the opposite direction of the herd is the best idea.
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The Bottom line is his talent warrants him to be $10Million + a season.
His "talent" is that he is large.
What a short memory you guyz have
I remember him giving up sacks because he was out of shape and skipped camp
What world do you guyz live in?????
I live in a world where it's spelled: guys
I
yup
you do have short memory...
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That is the worst trade idea I have ever heard of. Your going to be happy with dropping down 10 spaces in the draft, give up your 2 time probowl left tackle & all you get out of it is the basicaly the 28th pick in the draft. I am glad your not our GM.
& the poster that said limit the guaranteed money really has no idea how NFL contracts work. I am sure Parker & Peters are well aware that the non guaranteed money on a NFL contract is not worth the paper it is written on. It is all about the guaranteed money. 6 yrs, 64 mill with a signing bonus of 15-18 mill & guaranteed money of 30 mill seems. Alot of money, sure. But that is the price of keeping your franchise tackle happy nowadays.
I was thinking the same thing.
What an absurd trade.
Some people have no clue
tHE REAL Jason Peters solution
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
No disrespect Hocknod, now your talking irrationaly. If you don't see my point, then there is no need to go any further. I have explained my view at least a half a dozen times, and I'm obviously not communicating effectively with you. I feel as if I have made my point. Some see it, some don't like yourself, so there we are.
Astrobot, if we had to go the trading route, just for fun, and lets say that they traded their 1st 2nd 4th and 5th.
I'd much rather draft Pettigrew at the #11 and role the dice with Bretton at the #21 spot. Then Duke Robinson with our second round pick and hopefully Sidbury with their 2nd round pick. What thinks you?