Magox
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Posts posted by Magox
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"Oh no. What if the Pats get Peppers! Waah."
"Oh no. What if the Jets get Cutler AND Holt? Waah, waah."
"Oh no. What if Miami gets Christ himself? Waah, waah, waah."
With due respect to the female fans who already know better, would those that fear what other teams are doing please grow a pair and just accept the fact that if we can't beat those teams because they're better then we need to get better ourselves. That simple.
Unless, of course, there is more honor in beating a team of nuns (although some of the ones I had growing up would kick Butkus butt).
I WANT to beat the Pats when they have their best players. I WANT to beat the Jets when they have their best players.
I WANT to beat the Phins when they have their best players. I WANT to line up against the best and beat the best AT their best.
Until we can and do, then man up in the meantime and root for the team to get better. Or not. Just quit the whining already.
GO BILLS!!!
I'd rather be in the AFC West
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Great Post Dibs.
I mean it seems like half this board wants to get rid of our best players.
Peters is the best LT we have had since Ballard.
Marshawn is the best runningback since Thurman.
Trent Edwards has shown the most promise since Kelly.
Whitner the best safety since Henry Jones
Mcgee very solid corner and best kick returner ever.
Parrish best Puntreturner ever
Schobel the best DE since Bruce Smith
Poz a very promising LB
Kelsay....umm ok... I got nothing for Kelsay
I think it just shows the frustration of fans and the unreasonable, unrealistic views on our current situation.
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Cool
It looks like it will be anywhere from 0-2 games, and most likely 1 game.
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Trent is a young QB that seems like he might be a little unsure of himself right now anyway.
Where in the world did you gather that from?
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Crowell is very average IMO. Better than Ellison, yes, but a difference maker no. I wouldn't be upset if he resigned with us, because like many have pointed out he'd be an upgrade over Ellison. That being said, the lasting memory I have of Crowell was him playing terribly vs. the Jaguars in the 07 season. I remember watching the film on NFL.com of Fred Taylor's long TD run in which Crowell took a terrible angle and was pretty much responsible for the big play. That was always the problem I had with him, he's just a little too stiff for a LB and often looked lost when he was one on one out in space. There must also be some serious question over his injuries, if he still has not received one offer.
Angles and overpursuit has always been his weakness, and I think it is a fair concern regarding the injuries and why no one else has stepped to the plate to sign him. Having said that, I think he is better than average, and with a little more discipline and coaching, I think that can be rectified. Concerning his injury, I guess no one really knows and that is a risk that someone will have to take. This is why he probably is only being offered a 1 year contract. Maybe, Im just speculating
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FYI: Only Rivers, Pennington, Warner and Manning made the playoffs on that list...the other 8 were at home in the playoffs...so maybe its not so indicative of team success as has been implied in this thread...
And if none of them made the playoffs, does that mean Edwards is better than them too because the popular argument is that Cutler didnt take the Broncos to the playoffs...
Or maybe, just maybe, the absurd argument about team record is a very poor indication of a QB's quality of play...
Thats not what I said Alpha.
What I said was, it is not a perfect science, you have to consider qb rating and wins and losses, and clutch performance, this is the best way in my view how to evaluate a players value to his team. I think looking at the qb rating is one of the better and more accurate gauge's to look. If you look at that the top 10, and let me say again, it is not a perfect science, it pretty much does show who the best qb's were last year and the importance that they played for their team.
Btw, those four that you mentioned were 4 of the top 5 and the other in BRees had an MVP year. The other 6 of the top ten, you had Cassel, Romo and Rodgers who all had good statistical years. Schaub played for a bad team and still helped manage to help them win games.
So in reality, The qb's I listed in the top 10 all helped support my argument.
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Ok ... ok ... this thread is gay ... I'm banning myself from this thread
nice avatar
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Absolutely, I DO discount a QB rating system that ranks Rob Johnson (85.5 in Buffalo) ahead of Jim Kelly (84.4) on the franchise career leaderboard.
There is no doubt, that it is not a single, absolute indicative way of determining who a better qb is. But it definitely is a gauge in which you can compare qb's. agreed?
I would imagine the other measures that we have to gauge a successful qb is, wins and losses, come from behind victories, playoff appearances and playoff wins and losses.
*edit*
I was looking back at the top 10 qb ratings. As I said, it is not a perfect science, but considering wins and losses, and what these players meant to their teams in value, I think this is a pretty accurate way of determining the value they represented towards their teams success
1. Philip Rivers, 105.5
2. Chad Pennington, 97.4
3. Kurt Warner, 96.9
4. Drew Brees, 96.2
5. Peyton Manning, 95.0
6. Aaron Rodgers, 93.8
7. Matt Schaub, 92.7
8. Tony Romo, 91.4
9. Jeff Garcia, 90.2
10. Matt Cassel, 89.4
16. Jay Cutler, 86.0
17. Trent Edwards, 85.4
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Why would Denver put him on the block?
Because he doesn't fit the mold of Tight End that Mcdaniels is looking for. He doesn't want an H Back or a Tight end that lines up as a wideout. He wants a good old fashioned Tight End that can both block and catch passes, and that's not what Scheffler is known for.
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lmao...um, I do like Edwards potential...but yes, he has sucked on the field...
Just when I was about to leave this subject to rest, you had to make the comment. LOL
Same qb rating, same wins and losses, actually a little better for Edwards, and Edwards a better clutch player.
Unless you discount the qb rating system? I am sure you have an excuse to justify Cutler's but not Trent's right?
Ok well if Edwards sucked on the field, then so did Cutler.
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With Jason Peters once again not agreeing to a contract we simply deal him for a first and some other picks. Then you pull the plug for Cutler and give the Broncos Edwards and they'll probably want a first or second so give them that. If we lose a second for cutler then we would have our 11th pick and one from whoever's we would get for Peters. We then could try to package a deal and move up and get a solid LT in the draft. Or if we give a first for Cutler then we would have the one we recieved in the deal for Peters. So all in all we would either really still have our picks or possibly more, and we would get rid of the headache in Peters.
*sigh*
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most likely a 2nd or 3rd.
I hope not a 2nd or 3rd. Hoping for a fourth round.
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I know you think I hate Edwards, but I really dont. I like him...I am not sold on him, but I feel he has potential. So, we will just have to wait and see who our QB is this year and rally around who ever it is...most likely Edwards, and if so, I really hope he does step his game up and I will be cheering him the whole way...
I too am looking forward to seeing what he can do this year, but if I have a choice of him and Cutler, then I would be more excited to see what Cutler could do with Evans, Owens, Lynch, and Jackson...
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Our division is better, but Denver actually won a game in our division and we went 0-6...
So far, the only argument anyone has had in support of Trent was his 4th quarter rating. His first half rating is terrible...
So lets compare one last time the "clutch" stats one more time since you and others have mentioned his 4th qtr rating so much.
4th Qtr Stats
Edwards: 106 rating, 6TD's, 2INT's, 800+yards
Cutler: 94 rating, 11 TD's, 4 INT's...
That dispells the Cutler is a bone head in the 4th when he only has 4 turnovers in 16 games...they are both clearly effective in the 4th...and Cutler is clearly productive with eleven TD's...
Playing when the game is tied (cant afford mistakes):
Edwards: 70.1 rating, 0 TD's, 2 INT's
Cutler: 110.4, 7 TD's, 1 INT
Playing from behind: 1-8 points (winnable games)
Edwards: 79.6 rating, 2 TD's, 2 INT's
Cutler: 90.3 rating, 5 TD's, 2 INT's
Playing from behind: 9-16 points (again, winnable games)
Edwards: 75.3 rating, 4 TD's, 5 INT's
Cutler: 68.0 rating, 5 TD's, 7 INT's
In close games (tied to within 8 points) Cutler has been far better than Edwards. Edwards edges him out when the game is further out of reach when behind 9-16 points, but Edwards isnt very good then either. Neither did well in that scenario...
And first half ratings:
Edwards: 75.3, 3 TD's, 6 INT's
Cutler: 87.4, 13 TD's, 9 INT's...
So, lets review. Cutler is pretty good in the first half (had more TD's in the first half of games than Trent had total), really good in close games where he is tied or behind, and really good in the 4th quarter.
Trent is terrible in the first half (ONLY 3 TD's ALL year in the first half, pathetic), terrible in close games where we are tied or behind, and is pretty good in the 4th quarter.
Give me the guy who is good from start to finish that excels in those close games who is money in the 4th...that is Cutler, and Edwards istn even close...
Oh and by the way, you brought up competition...Edwards seems to only have his decent games against the lowest rated D's in the league...which is why we went 0-6 in our division...
So there are strong arguments for both qb's.
I will not dispute that Cutler has been the better qb at this point. Because he has. But not by much. But I can say with full confidence that Trent has been the better player when the game is on the line. Evidence in the Chargers, Bills game.
Considering Trent has one full season under his belts, and he had less talent surrounding him offensively and a tougher division to play in. He's done pretty well.
ANd I'm looking forward to his second full season, with lots more weapons.
I will go out on a limb to say, that I believe that he Trent will have a better qb rating than Cutler does in 2009. I won't say that the Bills will have a better record, because we play in a much more difficult conference than the AFC West.
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Magox (and others), no offense, but why do you down play the 4 game stretch that practically ended our playoff hopes that were our first 3 divisional games followed by the Cle debacle? Trents passer rating was atrocious and he had 3 TD's and 10, yes 10 turnovers...
These were must win games for us too...it put us so far out of the post season that it pretty much ended our season. We were in each game and lost because our QB couldnt get it done...and he had more bad games later in the year too, not just these, but these put us so far behind that our season was pretty much over.
You keep saying I dont like Edwards, but that is not true. I am just a realist as to what he is thus far...I agree he has potential, but how over stated his performance is has become comical.
If Edwards is here, then I hope he lives up to the potential this year, but last year was terrible...the problem you are hung up on is the 4th quarter rating...well look at his fourth quarter stats...they are not that special:
Trents 4th qtr stats: QB rating 106.3, 800+ yards and only 6 TD's and 2 INT's.
FYI: Cutler is a pretty good 4th quarter QB too...94.2 rating, 11 TD's to only 4 INT's and 1200+ yards...That is eleven TD's and ONLY 4 INT's...pretty good 4th qtr player too...
FYI #2: Edwards amongst the worst in the NFL (and may be the worst) rated QB in the first qtr with a rating of 58.3 with 1 TD and 5 INT's...so he gets us off to a slow start meaning we have to play from behind. In fact, he has a 1st half rating of 75.3...so, lets look at how he does when playing from BEHIND in a game...I mean he is a comeback legend right...
His rating is 78.3 when playing from behind...doesnt exactly screem clutch QB...
His rating is 116 when playing with a lead...looks like a "front runner"
Too bad, he stinks in the first qtr and first half which always puts us behind because he is NOT good playing from behind because he is such a slow starter...
Oh, and if he is such a good 4th quarter QB, what happened in the Miami game where he had a 35 QB rating in the 4th quarter with INT, fumble, no td's and bad completion %? He is not nearly the legend you guys make him out to be...
There is no doubt that he struggled in games through out the season. But those weren't "must win" or "clutch" games. Sure every game in a whole is "must" win, but at that time, they weren't. Is that a fair statement?
On the other hand, Cutler's game's were obvious must win games. Would you say that is a fair statement?
Going back to the game's that Trent struggled in, there is no excuse, he had bad performances, and yes he did start off games slowly, but to credit Trent, in many of those games, he more than made up for it when the game counted. correct?
He did not peform like an all star, no one is saying that. But he showed he can play well in the clutch when he needed to. Is that a fair comment?
Would you say that it is uncommon for first year qb's to struggle in their first full season? I mean Cutler had 3 games of below 50 qb rating in his first full season.
Not to mention, that they both had basically the same qb rating last year.
Plus, would you deny, that the Chiefs, Raiders and Chargers are easier opponents than the Patriots, Dolphins and Jets?
Don't you believe that has any baring in their performances?
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What's frustrating is when people make claims based on stats, and the stats don't meet the claim. You say Cutler is so much better than Edwards based on the stats, and that he is clearly the more complete Quarterback. Fine, then let's look at the actual statistics of both players from last season as accessed from ESPN.com and see how you're theory stacks up.
Here's the link for those who are interested: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?s...2&year=2008
Just for fun, here are the stats listed at the above link.
Jay Cutler 2008
Comp. Att. % Yds YPA LG TD TD% INT INT% Sack SYds Rating
384 616 62.3 4526 7.35 93 25 4.1 18 2.9 11.0 69 86.0
Trent Edwards 2008
Comp. Att. % Yds YPA LG TD TD% INT INT% Sack SYds Rating
245 374 65.5 2699 7.22 65 11 2.9 10 2.7 23.0 143 85.4
Let's also note that they were rated 16th and 17th overall respectively in the league last year. That being said, look at the numbers. Cutler had 242 more passing attempts than Edwards, and 139 more completions. Blame that on Denver's lack of a run game, or whatever, there's the statistics. Also, keep in mind that these are Edwards' stats over fourteen games last year, not sixteen. He would have had more attempts and more yards, likely over 3000 had he started those additional two games. Even still, Edwards is a more accurate passer by the percentages. His YPA is the same as Cutler's, he has a lower INT% than Cutler and they have virtually the same QB rating. (.6 on the rating scale, even over a full season, is a small differential). Cutler did throw for more interceptions, but at the same time he threw that many more passes. Same could be said for the INTs, but that's why the percentages are important. There is little difference between their performances last year, so to say that Cutler was so much better is bogus. Now for your second argument, that Cutler improved so much more than Edwards, who you claim regressed. Well, the numbers, as you've been trying to cite them, don't match up there either. Let's look at 2007 just for craps and giggles.
Here's the link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?s...2&year=2007
Jay Cutler 2007
Comp. Att. % Yds YPA LG TD TD% INT INT% Sack SYds Rating
297 467 63.6 3497 7.49 68 20 4.3 14 3.0 27.0 153 88.1
Trent Edwards 2007
Comp. Att. % Yds YPA LG TD TD% INT INT% Sack SYds Rating
151 269 56.1 1630 6.06 70 7 2.6 8 3.0 12.0 105 70.4
Anyone else see the pattern. Oh yeah, CUTLER was the QB who actually got worse in 2008. He was the 12th rated QB in 2007, had a better completion percentage, touchdown percentage, yards per attempt and overall QB rating. Trent, on the other hand improved in every single statistical category except his longest pass completion in 08 was not as good as 07. I guess that must be the stat you were basing your statements on. Aren't statistics fun? I think so.
Okay, so let's look at your other complaints in the analysis shall we? You wonder why people prop up Edwards when our D won us three games, in your estimation. First, I'd ask you to be more specific concerning which three games those were. The two Greer picks are pretty obvious, but please clarify the third. I assume, having watched all 16 games, that you are referring to the SD game, but that might be a stretch to say the Mitchell's interception won us that game. TE played pretty well that day. That being said, how many teams that win in football don't count on their defense to help out in critical situations. You think the Ravens have been this good for so long without a defense that makes plays at critical times? I think not. Your argument has nothing to do with whether or not Trent is comparable to Cutler based on wins and losses.
Now, as to your other chief complaint, that Edwards had this three game stretch of losses where he had 2 TDs and 10 INTs. Well, that, strictly speaking is inaccurate, just looking at his statistics page on ESPN. The link follows: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=10536
Looking at said link, the only stretch you could be referring to was a four game losing streak between weeks 8 and 11. The Cleveland game was one we should have won, and didn't, not because Trent played badly (though it wasn't his greatest first quarter in history) but because our vaunted special teams failed to convert a relatively easy field goal. The three games prior to that, however, are the ones I assume you are referring to. During that three game stretch you can see that Trent did only throw 2 TDs. He did, however, only throw 5 INTs, so that takes your overexaggerated ratio right back down to earth. In fairness, then, let's look at Cutler's worst three game stretch of the season last year statistically. Here's the link for those numbers: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9597
Taking a look, his worst three games came at the worst possible time, the last three weeks of the season when they needed to win only one game to assure themselves of a playoff birth. I guess he couldn't perform under pressure. During that stretch of games Cutler threw 2 TDs and 4 INTs. Slightly better than Edwards, but not much. Then let's look at the competition each of those QBs had those stats against. Trent played against the Dolphins, Jets, and Patriots. They were ranked 15th, 16th and 10th overall defenses respectively. Cutler had is terrible play against Carolina, Buffalo, and San Diego the 18th, 14th, and 25th ranked defenses in the league. On average, Edwards had his worst play against teams that were on average, better than the teams Cutler played his worst games against.
Just wanted to point out that the statistics are not on your side here. Please stop this nonsense about Cutler being the more complete QB and being more improved than Edwards and finally putting it together last year. He regressed, in some categories significantly, while Edwards improved as a QB in EVERY SINGLE STATISTICAL CATEGORY. This crap about needing to trade Edwards for another QB who IMO is highly overrated with offensive weapons he had needs to stop. With the numbers Edwards had last year with our anemic offense imagin what he could have done in Denver. JUST SAY NO TO A CUTLER TRADE!
No offense Alpha, because other than your view on Edwards, you have some intelligible views on football.
but the most ridiculous part of his argument is when he said that they win in spite of him. THen the three games he mentioned, are 3 games that they won because of Trent. THree come from behind victories. 2 of them in real clutch situations.
Sure he struggled in parts of those games, but the bottom line is, when they needed him most, he pulled through.
And yes he did struggle during certain stretches of the season, but that is to be expected out of any first year qb.
If you go back to Cutler's first full year, he had 3 games where he had less than a 50 qb rating. So, it is normal for 1st year qb's to struggle.
But all in all, Trent showed that he can win games for us in the clutch.
Cutler hasn't shown that ability on a consistant basis, andd when they needed Cutler the most, he didn't deliver.
That's the bottom line.
Hence, the qb controversy in Denver
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Is it me, or does that article still not confirm Crowell is here?
Is it me, or did you make an absolute statement saying that he wasn't in Buffalo today?
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Ok, you want to talk about that key 3 game stretch where he was mediocre, what about Trents 4 game stretch where he was awful...
Edwards 4 game stretch where we lost our 3 first divisional games (the first 3 games in this 4 game stretch) and followed it up with a loss against Cle, which essentially eliminated us from any reasonable playoff hopes...
67.2, 79.3, 49.2, 50.3 with 3 TD's and 10 turnovers...where was his poise and decision making then? And this wasnt the end of his bad games, just pointing to the most critical 4 games of the year...
Oh, and we had the lead too going into our divisional games...we were in PRIME postion to make the playoffs and even win our division...but this 4 game skid all but ended it...and Edwards was the QB in ALL of them...
And in our fabled 4-0 start, look at how he did in games 2, 3, and 4...
Jax game: 1 TD, 2 turnovers
Raiders game: 1 TD, 2 turnovers
Rams game: 1 TD, 1 Turnover
Thats 3 TD's and 5 turnovers...we didnt win because of Trent, we won in spite of Trent.
And for the season, Trent passed for 11 TD's but turned the ball over 16 times...Yet you and others are trying to make a case for him being better than a guy who threw for 4500 yards in only his 2nd year as a starter and 25 TD's despite a running game that saw every RB they have go on IR at some point, a #1 WR who was suspended for 2 games and a rookie midget #2 WR...
Oh, and in Cutlers first year as a starter (2007) he still had 20 TD's which is still more than Trents whole 23 game career...
Again, I like Edwards potential, but be reasonable here on these comparisons...
no no
major difference.
First off, Cutler's game's were undoubtedly games where he had to win, and he didn't.
The games you mention about Edwards, last I remember, is that in clutch time, when he had to perform, he did. That is the bottom line Alpha.
You don't value wins like I do. You see, to break it down, and I know you know this, but it has to be put into perspective for you. The responsability of the qb, first and formost is to win. That is his job. To manage the situation to where they can score more points than their opposition.
In those games that you mentioned regarding Edwards, you say in spite of him. Please Alpha, give me a break. Edwards had the second highest 4th quarter qb rating in all of football. Now you can disregard that, as I know you will, because you do seem to turn the blind eye to anything he does, but when they need him most, he comes through.
So you say in spite of him, but people who have an unbiased view knows that he is the main reason why we won those games.
But were you serious when you said in spite of him? I mean really, were you serious?
Let's recap here. We tried running the ball that game 25 carries for a whopping 76 yards. Ya, it must of been the running game. But hold on
he was 20-25 with a td and 0 int's. oh and I forgot, the game winning drive to win the game.
ok alpha, your argument for the jax game is really weak, you have to admit that.
The Raiders game, we had 30 carries for 116 yards, a little better, but not dominant at all.
Trent was 24-39 for 279 yds 1 td and 1int against one of the best defensive backfields in all of football. Oh and did I mention, that he led us to 3 scoring drives in the 4th quarter, with the game winning drive. 2 scoring drives in the last 6:30. Ya, but that isn't important is it? In spite of him right?
So you don't have a case here either.
The Rams game, we had 31 rushes for 111 yards, another game where it wasn't a dominating rushing game. 15-25 197 yards 1 td 1 int. We were losing going into the 4th quarter, we scored 18 points. Do you see a commonality here? In the games you say we won in spite of him, he had well over a 90 qb rating, led us to 3 4th quarter wins.
So I understand that you don't like him, and you want another qb in there, and you can't say that you do want him here, because it is obvious that you don't.
But please, if you are going to bring up games and make crazy statements, at least make correct statements. I am glad that you specifically brought up those 3 games, because when I went back and looked at the stats, and remembered the circumstances, it is the exact reason why we I want Trent as our qb.
He struggled in parts of the game, but at the end of the day, he would lead us to victory, 4th quarter comebacks in every single one of those games. Not to mention he had well over a 90 qb rating at an average in those games.
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what if they play him at guard? what if they move clady to RT?
ok
your a moron
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how about peters, parrish, edwards for cutler, scheffler
hey three3
was your username inspired by your iq testing?
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I would think it to be Scheffler as well. They didn't invite him to their workouts to my understanding.
No more than a 4th rounder for him
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i saw it on a broncos board earlier
HAHAHAHA
It looks like soprano is infecting the denver boards.
He seems to be well loved over there to
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(courtesy of reuben on weck)excuse my ignorance.
who or what is reuben on weck?
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I liked Crowell in a Bills jersey and thought he played well for Buffalo. Ellison is the worst starting linebacker in NFL history. We would be better off putting Mark Kelso's bubble helmet on the field. At least the bubble helmet might trip someone up for a tackle.
you have to question people who use the word best and worst loosely, like you do.
having said that, I hope we offer him a respectable 2 year contract, I believe he showed us that he can make lots of tackles.
Lynch to meet Goodell tomorrow
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
don't you know, people are guilty till proven innocent, what country do you think your in?