Thurman#1

I do know it when I see it. But beyond that, it's basically when the defense changes from the standard defense to the prevent and starts letting teams have the shorter passes to trade for time burnt and a chance to rush the passer hard. That's the shorthand. You can't get too much more precise than that because it's different based on defensive personnel and strategy, the offense's quick-strike ability, the time left in the game and so on. But it absolutely exists. Can you explain to me in an objective way what a franchise QB is? Does the fact that you can't mean they don't exist? Can you explain precisely what momentum is and what difference it makes? When a defense is bend-but-don't-break and what the dividing line is between that and a defense that just gets pushed around a lot? There are a ton of things in football ... in any endeavor so complex and highly observed ... that can't be precisely objectively explained, and yet they exist. Accuracy, the subject of this thread, is one of them. Garbage time is also one of those things.

Bottom line is it could go either way. He'd be very useful to the Eagles this year if Wentz is injured again. And this is probably the peak of his value, so they would get maximum value for trading him. Both make sense. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Nope. The problem was drafting badly.

Good luck with all this.

Oh, come on. There's a difference there, Hapless. I agree with what you said about Tyrod's words. Nothing wrong with them. You expect a QB to be confident. But there's certainly such a thing as garbage time and unsuccessful comebacks are a bit different. You know this.

That's the thing. He ISN'T a slightly above average starter. He's a slightly below average starter. Slightly above average starter would mean he's top 15 or so, and it's not difficult to make a list of 15 starters you'd rather have than Tyrod. It is indeed straightforward, but there are still a few on here who don't get that. As for having a good cap number, questionable. Cap number is relevant to two things. Relevant to the first, league-wide QB cap numbers, his has indeed been decent. But a cap number is also relevant to how good a player the guy is. And Tyrod's cap numbers have been pretty high when you look at what we actually got, after that first year anyway. As for what it says that he's the all time leading Bills passer, I'd say it says more about the way the game has changed over the years. Tyrod wasn't a better passer than Kelly. I think everyone can agree with that. But completion percentages have steadily risen over the years. What it says is less that Bills QBs have been bad than that the last two or three QBs, the ones who played in the era when stats were roughly the same, weren't very good, not that that's big news. And it also says something about which stats you're looking at. Orton's one year in Buffalo he had higher completion percentage than Tyrod has ever had here. That's not Tyrod who has the good track record of beating the teams we should beat. It's the Buffalo Bills. Wins and losses is a team statistic.

I thought he was fine.

They won't forget but it won't be a big deal for them. Assuming he doesn't stay many years in NE, the next guy who wants him will just demand a signed contract. I suspect other owners will understand well why he was concerned about going to Indy. Their ownership is not top-notch. Could be. Alternately, the owner may have promised him he'll succeed Belichick. Or at least be a leading candidate with an inside track. If he doesn't get hired there, I think he'll be hired somewhere else the first year. If not, though, yeah, a good chance we'll see a window effect. Fair point. But I still don't think he would have any trouble getting hired elsewhere even if he's not in NE for the long-term. Whoever hired him would just do a better job of saying, "This offer lasts XX hours. Sign the contract or we move on."

Ah, spacing out. Sorry. Yeah, it makes a pass more possible for the Eagles.

You don't need an elite QB. It's sure nice if you do get one, but you don't need one. (Elite as generally defined is top three, four, maybe stretching it to five. But not more.) You need a QB who's top ten or twelve. Russell Wilson isn't elite. Never has been. Flacco was never elite. But he played like a top ten guy for a lot of that year and especially the playoffs. Eli's not elite. Flacco had a top three defense that year but they weren't winning the SB without him playing the way he did. Roethlisberger's probably never been elite. Really really close, top 6 or 7 for most of his career, but not elite, I'd argue.

Both, please, Coach McD. I don't mind a stifling defense. And I don't remember Coach McD being against offense.

Yup, it does make a run on that play a possibility.

Agreed. But at this point I don't think there was any way Cousins was staying. He'd become fed up with the organization. They had their chance to keep him, but didn't. Smith may well have been their best alternative. But yeah, I agree that they should have paid Cousins and kept the CB, though the salary cap hit would indeed have been large. But that's pro football and the market in top ten QBs reaching their second contracts.

Hunh? No, that's a standard move. You don't lose anything by it, and you gain three seconds or so. If you call it before the two minute warning, you have two clock stoppages and it's third down with 1:56 left. Here's the play-by-play. 1-10-NE 31(2:09) 29-L.Blount left guard to NE 29 for 2 yards (93-L.Guy; 37-J.Richards). Timeout #3 by NE at 02:03. 2-8-NE 29(2:03) 29-L.Blount right tackle to NE 26 for 3 yards (93-L.Guy). Two-Minute Warning 3-5-NE 26(1:56) 73-I.Seumalo reported in as eligible. 29-L.Blount right tackle to NE 27 for -1 yards (70-A.Butler, 90-M.Brown). If you don't call it, the two minute comes at 2:00, and it's 2nd and 8. Actually they ran the ball and got 3 yards on 2nd and 8. Assume they do the same thing. That play takes, what? Six seconds? And you call timeout. Now you have the same amount of timeouts, it's 1:54 instead of 1:56. And the same situation, 3rd and 5, but with two extra seconds gone. So if they call it after the 2:00 warning you've now had two clock stoppages, there's 1:54 left. And you have the same number of timeouts, as you only used one.

Yeah, Brady and Belichick, but it's precisely Belichick who uses that draft system. I hate Belichick but he's smart and he drafts that way for a reason. And again, Brady was a comp pick. Extra picks mean extra chances.

Yeah, but you are leaving out the other part of what Donald Jones said. Which was that as the two of them learn to play with each other, that Zay will learn to head more up the field and Tyrod will learn to make the quick adjustment and throw to where Zay is heading. He actually said that both guys could have done better on the play, and that if Tyrod had made the quick adjustment they would have had the ball on the one rather than a TD. Interesting how you only mentioned the part about Zay.

He did throw into tight windows. The skinny on Foles has been that with time to throw he will be excellent, but if he gets disrupted he has major problems. Nobody likes disruptions but Foles has bad problems with it. The Philly OL did a terrific job there, terrific. The Pats couldn't rush him.

QBs don't have win-loss records. Teams do. That stat is called "TEAM record in games started by this QB (Regular Season)" Foles' third year in Philly - his second year under Shurmur - he was much worse than he'd been in his second year. Look at his TD/INT ratios, his yards per attempt, his yards per game, his INT percentages (insanely good 0.6% to bad 3.2%) No question he played well the last three weeks. How well would he have played if teams had seen him all year? Dunno, but I'd guess not nearly as well. It'll be interesting going forward to see what he becomes.

His floor is very good backup, IMHO. I'm still not convinced that's not what he is. Great game tonight, but the Eagles really used him well. They then switched how they used him as the playoffs began. Very smart as defenses can't count on tendencies to help them predict opponent moves. Very smart. It'll be interesting to see what he does in the future.

Didn't know the Eagles were big on analytics. But it isn't a big surprise. The best teams take an advantage where they can get one. Exactly how you use this stuff is up in the air, it should be a bit different for each team. But every team ought to look carefully at where analytics can fit into their plans and help them achieve their goals.

I don't see it as being about stubbornness. It's about having principles and living with them. Not just living with them when it's convenient. And yeah, I can see it bothering players. Belichick's never worried about that, and for good reason. Yup. Hope one of them calls it quits, but if neither does, this won't even be remembered.

I just don't see what either of you two do. The whole foot has to get down inbounds. He's not sliding that foot, he's stepping. If any part of the foot hits out, it's out. And it's out. As for "moving the ball," yeah, you can move the ball but when he initially catches it he appears to have control but not be sure of it. More than half of the ball is out but he's got what appears to be a good grip and both feet down. But then his left foot comes off the ground and he lets go with both hands to move them to a surer grip. He gets the better grip but his left foot having been in the air lands half in and half out. Incompletion. A virtually impossible play to call at game speed but if there was a conspiracy, they'd have gone the Pats way initially and that might have been tough or even impossible to overturn. Yeah, or guys in motion coming to a stop but not holding it for the second they're supposed to. The play starts milliseconds after they were moving. Never gets called.

Come on, that's not three yards. The WR's foot is slightly inside the three yard-line and the LOS is the one and a half. As folks say, it wasn't a worry if he confirmed it with the ref, but that's no three yards. There was another play much earlier where it was clear a play went against the Pats. Can't remember what it was. But it happened. Oh, yeah, the Philly TD that was out of the end zone and the guy never had possession. That was pretty clear. But the "it's a conspiracy for the Pats group will conveniently ignore that, as it doesn't fit their preconceptions. Nice.

That was Wade's papa, talking about Shula. And the Pats draft extremely well for the fact that they draft late with great regularity. They have a system ... collect comp picks, trade down and collect more picks, trade a 3rd this year and get a 2nd next year, get higher value. They don't convert picks to great players any more than anyone else. Maybe less, as they're drafting so very low. It's harder down there. But they have more chances because of their system and that has brought them a lot of terrific drafted players over the years. Including Brady, a comp pick. That's really stretching it. They didn't put in a new system when Roman was fired in week three. They basically simplified Roman's system under Lynn. You can hardly call that a new system.

Agreed. If nothing else, this should be a very interesting offseason with so many guys in play.