Red Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I remember this. In his defense (Jauron), the play was quick as NE was in the hurry-up. But Jauron should have threw the challenge flag and challenged the spot of the ball. Regardless of the spot, they were still going for it based on the circumstances of being behind late in the 4th. Spot notwithstanding, would the Bills have been able to stop the Pats on a 4th down play? However, that was a horrible spot which appeared to be a good yard short of the 1st down marker making it 4th and 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 The spot of the Ball can be challenged by the coaching staff. It the Refs mistake but a bigger mistake by the Bills. pretty hard for jauron to challenge - the ref was so clever about it , or so he thought, trying to pull it off with lightning speed and complete nonchalance, so as to make it look like nothing out of the ordinary was happening. watch again - they practically re-spotted the ball during brady's* snap cadence. in fact, i think brady* was already in the process of screaming the play-call to set his receivers when the ref quickly picked up the ball, feigned wiping it and re-setting it to facilitate moving it a yard downfield as he re-set it, while the sideline guys quickly pulled up the chains and started sprinting downfield. i couldn't believe it when i saw it monday, and now it looks even more blatant. clearly an orchestrated event - the NFL was worse than the WWF on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Now that I've looked at the video again, it sure looks to me like the Patriots gained ten yards, or something very, very close to it, and the ESPN yellow line was off by a bit. Don't know or care what the game book says; look where the ball was snapped and where it was when the receiver went down. Well, to throw the proverbial wrench into your argument, you would think that with under 3 minutes to play and the Patsies on a drive, could the ESPN yellow have been that far off to NOT warrant a measurement? The ref seemed to give Welker an extra 1/2 yard or so on the spot. How could it not warrant a measurement in those circumstances? To be extremely conspiratorial, you could go to the 'No Goal' game and how everyone rushed onto the ice thus sealing the result despite the video evidence. Who knows? It seems a bit too obvious to me, but the 1st Monday night game, AFL throwback, 50th anniversary game, PATRIOTS and Belicheat...hmmmm...where are Mulder and Scully when you need them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 It may be off by an inch or two, but a yard? I don't think so. watch the ref - he picks the ball up, feigns wiping something off of it twice just to make it look good, then look closely at how far he moves the ball when he re-sets it. the ref could have imply lifted the ball an inch of the ground and re-set it right where it was, w/out moving it a yard. why did he have to pick up the ball at all, other than to re-spot it - either according to bob kraft's wishes or the call from rocco in las vegas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Looking at the replay from NFL rewind (better quality), this is what I see: 1. The lines (red showing the line of scrimmage and yellow showing first down) are exactly where the sticks are. 2. The original spot of the ball (and the new red line when the Pats are originally lining up) is pretty much exactly where Welker landed, which was half a yard shy. 3. The Ref definitely picks up the ball, wipes it off, and puts it down half a yard further down the field. 4. At the same time he is doing this, the chain gang are moving the sticks. They didn't wait for him to move it first, then move the sticks. He must have called first down, then adjusted the ball to make it official. Also, the same ref that originally makes the correct spot moves the ball to the new spot, so there wasn't a different call that over ruled the original spot. 5. The two side refs are lined up on the ball (original spot), and as they're backing up to the sidelines, move over a yard to line up at the new spot. What all that means...no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 It may be off by an inch or two, but a yard? I don't think so. A yard on the field isn't very far on your TV screen at any decent camera distance. Next time you are at the Ralph look at how far from the field the camera's are. Plus who knows what the bonehead tech in the truck entered as the start of the 10 yard distance. Garbage in = garbage out. A yard off at times on your TV screen, no problem. In my opinion anyway. But then again, it's a well known fact that all refs are out to get the Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 the call from rocco in las vegas? Now that at least is in the realm of possibility. Though still extraordinarily unlikely. If anything, it was a simple ball spot mistake that I'm sure happens all the time. Hell, the entire way they spot the ball (wherever the ref feels the ball was when the knee hit the ground) is so subjective and inaccurate I chuckle when they march out the chains and say the team is short, or made it, by a chain length or less. The margin of error of the spot is far greater than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 A yard on the field isn't very far on your TV screen at any decent camera distance. Next time you are at the Ralph look at how far from the field the camera's are. Plus who knows what the bonehead tech in the truck entered as the start of the 10 yard distance. Garbage in = garbage out. A yard off at times on your TV screen, no problem. In my opinion anyway. But then again, it's a well known fact that all refs are out to get the Bills In all the years since they have had the electronic lines, I have seen them off by an inch or two when it comes to 1st Downs, but NEVER a yard. I have a 52" HDTV so yeah a yard is pretty far on my TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Looking at the replay from NFL rewind (better quality), this is what I see:1. The lines (red showing the line of scrimmage and yellow showing first down) are exactly where the sticks are. 2. The original spot of the ball (and the new red line when the Pats are originally lining up) is pretty much exactly where Welker landed, which was half a yard shy. 3. The Ref definitely picks up the ball, wipes it off, and puts it down half a yard further down the field. 4. At the same time he is doing this, the chain gang are moving the sticks. They didn't wait for him to move it first, then move the sticks. He must have called first down, then adjusted the ball to make it official. Also, the same ref that originally makes the correct spot moves the ball to the new spot, so there wasn't a different call that over ruled the original spot. 5. The two side refs are lined up on the ball (original spot), and as they're backing up to the sidelines, move over a yard to line up at the new spot. What all that means...no idea. Well what it means is quite obvious - if the Bills held the Cheatriettes* on that 3rd down or, worse from the ref's perspective, pushed them back, it would have brought up 4th down. By moving the ball on 3rd down, the refs clearly thought they could avoid the scrutiny that doing it on 4th would certainly have drawn. Even more risky for the refs had the Bills had held the Patsies* to bring up 4th down, then held the NE* on 4th down - imagine what scenario or non-existent penalty the refs would have had to make up to sustain that drive for NE* and allow them* to score the critical TD that allowed them* to go on to win the game! Watch the ref again closely as he picks the ball up high enough to feign wiping it twice before he re-places it on the field - it almost looks as though he's uncomfortable with what he's about to do, as if he's looking to see if anyone's watching! Even Marcia Bardy* did not seem her* usual unctuous, cocky self as she* left the field - ignoring sideline reporters and the opportunity to mug for a nat'l TV audience. I wonder if she*, too, is getting uncomfortable with all the blatant cheating and game-fixing? I am so sick of the scripted NFL charade that they call sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiemonster Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Ah let's all just forget about it, "just give it to them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Ah let's all just forget about it, "just give it to them". It's not like we have a lot of choice in the matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossage Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Lets come right out and say it: corruption is rampant in college and NFL football. Looking at the last few seasons as a whole, there can be no other explanation. Anyone who followed basketball knew there was a problem before Donaghy was caught. I feel the same way about the NFL, and especially college football. I watched Ohio State vs USC last year, and the refs gave USC about 100 yards worth of spots over the day. On some plays, the entire offensive line of USC literally tackled the defender in front of them. This is rehearsed cheating by a team that knows the refs are in their pocket. I havent been excited about the NFL for a few years, because what I see on the field isnt football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Where the ball started out in that clip is immaterial. What is important is the official spot, which in the gamebook is 9within half a yard of0 the 35-yard line. Furthermore, ESPN's "first down line" was within a half yard of the 25 yard line. But it still doesn't explain why the ref picked-up the ball at the 26-yard line, and moved it closer to the 25-yard line. That was no "mistake." And would anyone say that Matt Light was "within a foot of the LOS" when he lined-up, even WRT the 36-yard line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossage Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 You have to be lined up so that your head is in line with the waist of the center. In other places in the rule book, the line of scrimmage is said to be within 1 yard for players in motion, and not within 1 yard of a player on the line of scrimmage to be considered in the backfield in motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 You have to be lined up so that your head is in line with the waist of the center. In other places in the rule book, the line of scrimmage is said to be within 1 yard for players in motion, and not within 1 yard of a player on the line of scrimmage to be considered in the backfield in motion. Light was no closer to the LOS than Bell was when he was flagged for his illegal procedure penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossage Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Those penalties were clear indications of corruption. I paused the tv and studied them closely. Calling variations of live ball-dead ball fouls (yes, that is a category) incorrectly in absolutely inexcusable and should not be tolerated. Most passing plays in the NFL are run from illegal formations. The tackles are off the line of scrimmage, and the flankers are too close to the line. We cannot have this penalty selectively enforced. I have said officiating in the NFL is corrupt. I studied the film of the first eight games of the bills 2007 season and determined offsides was called incorrectly more than 40% of the time. That is astonishing and unacceptable. Football is the game that I have loved and lived. It has become a betting league. I just cant stand to see it abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson from Gamehendge Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Bottom line is...this had ZERO impact on the game whatsoever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Bottom line is...this had ZERO impact on the game whatsoever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oregonbbfan Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I too saw it as it happened and was furious. This again speaks volumes about our coaches. If it was the other way around, I guarantee you BB would have thrown the red flag and requested a review of the spot. Whether it was a mistake on the part of the judges or not it should have been reviewed in the booth. Everyone also misses the fact that (and I'm pretty sure BB would have ) by asking for a review, it slows the 2 min fury and gives our defense a much needed blow and a few seconds to get their bearings for the next play. Again, that is the difference between winning coaches and losers. Attention to detail, foreseeing/anticipating ahead of your opponent and changing tactics when they are eating your lunch. We will see tomorrow whether talent can overcome poor coaching. I hope so, because DJ is not going to win many games for us with his coaching prowess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson from Gamehendge Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Please explain to me how did the ref effect the game by picking up the ball, right before the center grabs it, wiping it off and setting it down 6 inches - 1 foot closer to the line. What effect did that have when Brady shredded the pass through our defense anyways? It was not even relevant, except that it looked on purpose. It is a different story, on my part, if Brady does not complete the pass and they run for no gain, but still get the 1st due to the previous spot that gave them 6-12 inches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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