You gotta love the flutie magic

[San Jose Bills Fan]

So basically the argument against Flutie has boiled down to this:

 

"I don't like his personality...he divided the team."

 

Well, I couldn't care less what his personality was. It's a results based business. Just win the damn games. I don't care how or how it looks.

 

It's interesting that he "divided the team" to their last two playoff appearances. And please don't start up with the tired old "they were a great defensive team'' arguments. The test case of the other quarterback with the same team blows that argument up completely.

 

Finally if there was even a partial argument that he helped save the franchise, then everyone on this board should pay a debt of gratitude to this guy, even if "we don't like his personality." (to be spoken in a whiny, snivelling little B word voice)

 

But the argument for him saving this franchise is not partial. It's very !@#$ing compelling. Correlate the wins to the ticket sales from week 5 of the 1998 season forward. It's as easy as that.

 

I don't like his personality. He divided the team. Jesus !@#$ing Christ.

 

The title of this thread is "You gotta love the Flutie magic..." Thanks to all the haters out there. Love the negativity and hatred.

[thebandit27]

Ummm...we're talking about an article by a grown man who calls himself "Bucky" and - in his own Walter-Mitty-like mind - fantasizes that he would be a better GM than Darcy Regier.

 

In other words, you can pretty much dismiss anything the idiot says.

 

C'mon Senator, you know better than that.

 

You think the guy just shoots from the hip on that kind of story?

[Gordio]

You want to kiss his little Flutie, don't you? You LOVE him.

 

I know it's tough when the truth about one of your early crushes comes to light. You can't believe he was such a bad guy.

 

"I could have changed him!", you cry, as others relate their stories of abuse.

 

Dean, come on your better then this. I am not saying that Flutie was the saint that alot of the flutie maniacs thought he was but this article by Gleason was totally unprofessional. Notice, he did not quote one player or anybody associated with the Bills about Flutie's act. He loses all credibility with this article by stating "you better warm up to Johnson because he is going to be around here for awhile". Yeah, 3 months after this article was written he was cut from the bills. This article makes it sound like he had a personal vendetta against the flute. Once again no sources were quoted in this article. So if you want to believe everything Bucky Gleason writes be my guess. My thoughts are the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

 

I am not saying they should of kept flutie, as his stint in sd showed he was pretty much shot at that point. But this myth that RJ was this beloved player in the lockerroom is laughable. It is the same myth that fans today think that Losman was this loveable teammate in the lockerroom, when I have stated before that I have several sources inside the Bills that have told me alot of the players could not stand Losman & were happy the day the bills sent him packing. I do not really carew if you believe this but these friends I know have no reason to lie to me.

 

In the end, TD did make a mistake by chosing RJ over Flutie, when in fact he should of kicked them both to the curb.

[thebandit27]

So basically the argument against Flutie has boiled down to this:

 

"I don't like his personality...he divided the team."

 

Well, I couldn't care less what his personality was. It's a results based business. Just win the damn games. I don't care how or how it looks.

 

It's interesting that he "divided the team" to their last two playoff appearances. And please don't start up with the tired old "they were a great defensive team'' arguments. The test case of the other quarterback with the same team blows that argument up completely.

 

Finally if there was even a partial argument that he helped save the franchise, then everyone on this board should pay a debt of gratitude to this guy, even if "we don't like his personality." (to be spoken in a whiny, snivelling little B word voice)

 

But the argument for him saving this franchise is not partial. It's very !@#$ing compelling. Correlate the wins to the ticket sales from week 5 of the 1998 season forward. It's as easy as that.

 

The title of this thread is "You gotta love the Flutie magic..." Thanks to all the haters out there. Love the negativity and hatred.

 

I don't like his personality. He divided the team. Jesus !@#$ing Christ.

 

Actually, San Jose, it's boiled down to 2 things, just as I said a page-and-a-half ago:

 

1) he wasn't a very good player

2) he wasn't a very good teammate

 

(wow, this is starting to sound like a jason peters debate)

 

you're right, the argument is NOT partial; he didn't "save the franchise". the TEAM sold seats because the TEAM won games. he just happened to be the QB at the time. you can't make me believe that any average QB (which all discernable stats, including W-L record, would indicate that flutie was) better than Rob Johnson couldn't have done the same thing and thus--by yours and others' line of reasoning--"saved the franchise".

 

how about this: sam cowart was the best defender on the field during the '98 season, and the team won games when he played at a pro bowl level, and thus sold the necessary suite tickets to make the $3M and renew the stadium lease, thus sam cowart "saved the franchise".

 

makes just as much sense.

 

yes, the fact that the team was great defensively, whether you or anyone else wants to admit it, makes a HUGE difference in whether or not the team wins games. case-and-point: the last time Buffalo's defense ranked in the top half of the league for the season, the team went 9-7 and was one win away from making the playoffs. granted, the QB can't be a complete waste of life (see: Johnson, Rob) or the team won't win games, but get a guy in there that won't lose it for you, and will occasionally make some plays (see: run a bootleg on the final play of a game to reach a whopping 17 points) and the team might win 10 games and lose in the first round of the playoffs.

 

this incredibly long and useless debate should show you that there are plenty of bills fans that didn't like flutie and still bought tickets. are we not resposible for "saving the franchise" as well?

 

how are those of us that don't like flutie "haters"? how does that make any sense at all? i showed up and cheered, paid my money, supported the team, etc. for every game the guy played. why? because I love the TEAM, not the QB. even though you'd like to dismiss it, folks like me are entitled to our opinions, and i figured that since this item was posted on a message board, it was open for discussion. silly me, guess that makes me a "hater". forgive me if i ask my QB to perform better than average and not act like a 3-year old that didn't get his way in the locker room. ridiculous stuff, i know.

 

this entire thread has grown from a discussion that centered around the man's highly-debatable on-field performance into a ridiculous pissing match between those that see things one way and those that see things another, and i am personally done discussing my position. the guy had plenty of chances in the nfl and never got the job done. his best years came when he had a top-tier defense to rely on. bad benching or not, he had his chances, and flutie-lovers seem to want to ignore that because he was better than rob johnson, alex van pelt, todd collins, jp losman, etc. etc.

 

move on guys, move on.

[The Senator]

C'mon Senator, you know better than that.

 

You think the guy just shoots from the hip on that kind of story?

I stand by my statement. 'Bucky' is an idiot of the highest order, surpassed - possibly - by only Jerry Sullivan, and Mike Schopp.

 

BTW, I'm not the only one who thinks this...

 

link

 

link2

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Bandit,

 

The extension of the lease was predicated on the sale of luxury seating, suites and club seating. Those were not selling as of week 5. They did not start selling until week 6. I was at the Rams game in week 3. The mood was like a funeral. The body had gone cold. Hopelessness was in abundance. Doctors could not find a pulse.

 

Then the team started winning. There was a buzz around the team for the first time in years and businesses started "backing the Bills." It was like a runaway train. Everyone was happy. If there was an undercurrent of resentment towards Flutie at that time I would ask why? If the Bills are winning isn't that all that matters?

 

I don't care if it was Alex Van Pelt or Matt Kofler. It was Flutie after someone else couldn't get the job done. I am eternally grateful and anyways, have nothing to gain by hating someone I don't know and denigrating his contributions.

 

Again this was a thread to celebrate his contributions. It has been crashed by haters. Tell me I'm wrong.

[thebandit27]

I stand by my statement. 'Bucky' is an idiot of the highest order, surpassed - possibly - by only Jerry Sullivan, and Mike Schopp.

 

BTW, I'm not the only one who thinks this...

 

link

 

link2

 

Yes, I understand that others (i.e. that guy that won't put his name on the piece of writing ripping another man, which Bucky at least had the kohones [sp?] to do) may agree with you on Bucky, but I fail to see how holding the guy in charge of the organization accountable for the team's performance is Bucky being an idiot of the highest order.

[The Dean]

I stand by my statement. 'Bucky' is an idiot of the highest order, surpassed - possibly - by only Jerry Sullivan, and Mike Schopp.

 

BTW, I'm not the only one who thinks this...

 

link

 

link2

 

 

Even an idiot can be right, on occasion. Look at me, for example.

 

Bucky may have been unprofessional here, but he is not saying anything those close to the team at the time don't say in private. Flutie was a divisive egomaniac of the highest order and cared about himself, not the team.

 

In one thread, you bash Peters. saying if he was great multiple teams would have traded top picks to the Bills, and been willing to pay him top LT dollar. OTOH, the fact that multiple NFL teams relegated Flutie to backup status, and his inability to stay with any team for more than a cup or two of coffee, goes unnoticed.

[thebandit27]

Bandit,

 

The extension of the lease was predicated on the sale of luxury seating, suites and club seating. Those were not selling as of week 5. They did not start selling until week 6. I was at the Rams game in week 3. The mood was like a funeral. The body had gone cold. Hopelessness was in abundance. Doctors could not find a pulse.

 

Then the team started winning. There was a buzz around the team for the first time in years and businesses started "backing the Bills." It was like a runaway train. Everyone was happy. If there was an undercurrent of resentment towards Flutie at that time I would ask why? If the Bills are winning isn't that all that matters?

 

I don't care if it was Alex Van Pelt or Matt Kofler. It was Flutie after someone else couldn't get the job done. I am eternally grateful and anyways, have nothing to gain by hating someone I don't know and denigrating his contributions.

 

Again this was a thread to celebrate his contributions. It has been crashed by haters. Tell me I'm wrong.

 

Let's take a look at the original post:

 

my second favorite QB of all time. benching a guy with this much heart is why the football gods have been angry with the bills.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlig...QBs-Doug-Flutie

 

p.s sorry if the link has been posted, i couldn't see it on the wall.

 

the bolded section sure looks to me like this thread was opened to debate the merits of the player and ALL of his contributions to the team (not just the positive ones).

 

i was also at the week 3 game and i remember the overall feeling being pretty positive for much of the afternoon. i mean, it did kind of drive me crazy that ted cottrell played that soft prevent defense that let the immortal tony banks throw 12-yard completions underneath the coverage for the final 2 drives that allowed st. louis back in the game, but overall i left the game thinking that things weren't all that bad. like him or not (and again, much like last year's edwards-losman stuff, i didn't like either johnson or flutie), johnson did look very good that game (18-28, 231 yds, 3 tds, 64.3 % comp, 110.9 QB rat.) and Buffalo should've won. it certainly wasn't anywhere near the moods i've seen leaving the stadium after the home opener vs. denver in 2007, the dallas monday nighter, the cleveland monday nighter, the new england homer last december, etc. to chalk up the "saving the franchise" point to your perception of the fans' collective mood after a game 11 years ago is pretty subjective, wouldn't you say?

[Gordio]

Let's take a look at the original post:

 

my second favorite QB of all time. benching a guy with this much heart is why the football gods have been angry with the bills.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlig...QBs-Doug-Flutie

 

p.s sorry if the link has been posted, i couldn't see it on the wall.

 

the bolded section sure looks to me like this thread was opened to debate the merits of the player and ALL of his contributions to the team (not just the positive ones).

 

i was also at the week 3 game and i remember the overall feeling being pretty positive for much of the afternoon. i mean, it did kind of drive me crazy that ted cottrell played that soft prevent defense that let the immortal tony banks throw 12-yard completions underneath the coverage for the final 2 drives that allowed st. louis back in the game, but overall i left the game thinking that things weren't all that bad. like him or not (and again, much like last year's edwards-losman stuff, i didn't like either johnson or flutie), johnson did look very good that game (18-28, 231 yds, 3 tds, 64.3 % comp, 110.9 QB rat.) and Buffalo should've won. it certainly wasn't anywhere near the moods i've seen leaving the stadium after the home opener vs. denver in 2007, the dallas monday nighter, the cleveland monday nighter, the new england homer last december, etc. to chalk up the "saving the franchise" point to your perception of the fans' collective mood after a game 11 years ago is pretty subjective, wouldn't you say?

 

 

You know bandit, they did not sell that game out. The actual attendance was 65K that day. Considering that the Ralph's capacity at the time was 80K & that it was the home opener & it was a beautifull day out the attendance figure for that game says all you need to know about the fan's mood of the franchise at that particular time imho.

[Lori]

i was also at the week 3 game and i remember the overall feeling being pretty positive for much of the afternoon. i mean, it did kind of drive me crazy that ted cottrell played that soft prevent defense that let the immortal tony banks throw 12-yard completions underneath the coverage for the final 2 drives that allowed st. louis back in the game, but overall i left the game thinking that things weren't all that bad. like him or not (and again, much like last year's edwards-losman stuff, i didn't like either johnson or flutie), johnson did look very good that game (18-28, 231 yds, 3 tds, 64.3 % comp, 110.9 QB rat.) and Buffalo should've won. it certainly wasn't anywhere near the moods i've seen leaving the stadium after the home opener vs. denver in 2007, the dallas monday nighter, the cleveland monday nighter, the new england homer last december, etc. to chalk up the "saving the franchise" point to your perception of the fans' collective mood after a game 11 years ago is pretty subjective, wouldn't you say?

As I recall, the Bills were pretty much kicking ass in that game. Wasn't it 28-10 at one point? I was ticked off (and more than a little shellshocked) walking out of the stadium that day, but it certainly wasn't because of the Bills offense.

[Gordio]

As I recall, the Bills were pretty much kicking ass in that game. Wasn't it 28-10 at one point? I was ticked off (and more than a little shellshocked) walking out of the stadium that day, but it certainly wasn't because of the Bills offense.

 

 

It was one of those games where the bills were well on their way to victory, me & my friends really started boozing it up in the stadium not paying attention to the game & the next thing you know Tony banks is running in the endzone for the go ahead td with less then a minute left.

[thebandit27]

As I recall, the Bills were pretty much kicking ass in that game. Wasn't it 28-10 at one point? I was ticked off (and more than a little shellshocked) walking out of the stadium that day, but it certainly wasn't because of the Bills offense.

 

correct.

 

incidentally, the famous 5-game "franchise-saving" winning streak started the next game (2 weeks later b/c of a bye) vs. steve young and the 49ers, a game in which a bills-QB-not-named-flutie went 19-27 (70.4 %), 254 yds, 1 TD, 0 int, and a QB rating of 112.3. But according to all the flutie-lovers, he started the winning streak all by himself.

 

again, i'm not touting johnson here, but let's all be honest about what level of player flutie was and why the team was winning. it wasn't all or even mostly him. look at the numbers objectively.

[C.Biscuit97]

correct.

 

incidentally, the famous 5-game "franchise-saving" winning streak started the next game (2 weeks later b/c of a bye) vs. steve young and the 49ers, a game in which a bills-QB-not-named-flutie went 19-27 (70.4 %), 254 yds, 1 TD, 0 int, and a QB rating of 112.3. But according to all the flutie-lovers, he started the winning streak all by himself.

 

again, i'm not touting johnson here, but let's all be honest about what level of player flutie was and why the team was winning. it wasn't all or even mostly him. look at the numbers objectively.

 

 

I guess the Pro Bowl voters and people who voted for the Comeback Player of the Year must have been blinded by Flutie Magic as well.

 

RJ's claim to fame is being the most sacked QB per dropback in NFL history. Flutie is our most successful QB since Kelly and I really don't understand why that is so hard for people to accept.

[VOR]

i was also at the week 3 game and i remember the overall feeling being pretty positive for much of the afternoon. i mean, it did kind of drive me crazy that ted cottrell played that soft prevent defense that let the immortal tony banks throw 12-yard completions underneath the coverage for the final 2 drives that allowed st. louis back in the game, but overall i left the game thinking that things weren't all that bad. like him or not (and again, much like last year's edwards-losman stuff, i didn't like either johnson or flutie), johnson did look very good that game (18-28, 231 yds, 3 tds, 64.3 % comp, 110.9 QB rat.) and Buffalo should've won. it certainly wasn't anywhere near the moods i've seen leaving the stadium after the home opener vs. denver in 2007, the dallas monday nighter, the cleveland monday nighter, the new england homer last december, etc. to chalk up the "saving the franchise" point to your perception of the fans' collective mood after a game 11 years ago is pretty subjective, wouldn't you say?

Yep. Flutie played most of the Chargers opening-day game, and took over in the Rams game when the Bills had the lead. He didn't "just win" in those games. And as was mentioned, the Bills' first win came in the 4th game of the season, against the 49'ers, with RJ at the helm.

[The_Philster]

I guess the Pro Bowl voters and people who voted for the Comeback Player of the Year must have been blinded by Flutie Magic as well.

 

RJ's claim to fame is being the most sacked QB per dropback in NFL history. Flutie is our most successful QB since Kelly and I really don't understand why that is so hard for people to accept.

For one thing, he did play well in 98....but anyone who remotely understands the game of football can see he stunk for a good portion of 99.

As far as Flutie being successful, for one thing...consider the competition. For another, we had the top defense in the league in 99

[The Senator]

Bucky may have been unprofessional here, but he is not saying anything those close to the team at the time don't say in private. Flutie was a divisive egomaniac of the highest order and cared about himself, not the team.

And you know this, because..... ?

 

In one thread, you bash Peters. saying if he was great multiple teams would have traded top picks to the Bills, and been willing to pay him top LT dollar.

Not exactly - I said that apparently most of the NFL front office-types were apparently completely 'in the dark' regarding the greatness that was so obvious to a handful of TSW posters.

 

OTOH, the fact that multiple NFL teams relegated Flutie to backup status, and his inability to stay with any team for more than a cup or two of coffee, goes unnoticed.

"His inability to stay with any team for more than a cup or two of coffee" seems a bit hyperbolic, and one could argue that his playing in 3 professional football leagues over a 21-year career accounts for that.

 

1985 New Jersey Generals

1986 Chicago Bears

1987 Chicago Bears

1987 New England Patriots

1988 New England Patriots

1989 New England Patriots

1990 British Columbia Lions

1991 British Columbia Lions

1992 Calgary Stampeders

1993 Calgary Stampeders

1994 Calgary Stampeders

1995 Calgary Stampeders

1996 Toronto Argonauts

1997 Toronto Argonauts

1998 Buffalo Bills

1999 Buffalo Bills

2000 Buffalo Bills

2001 San Diego Chargers

2002 San Diego Chargers

2003 San Diego Chargers

2004 San Diego Chargers

2005 New England Patriots

 

* Pro Bowl selection (1998)

* 1984 Heisman Trophy

* 1984 Walter Camp Award

* 1984 Davey O'Brien Award

* 1984 Maxwell Award

* 1984 UPI Player of the Year

* 1998 NFL Comeback Player of the Year

* 3× Grey Cup champion

* 3× Grey Cup MVP (1992, 1996, 1997)

* 6× CFL's Most Outstanding Player (1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997)

* 1983 Liberty Bowl MVP

 

 

Yeah, he sucked.

[Mr. WEO]

LOL! That game was "humiliating" for TO...why? Because the Cowboys lost, thanks to Bledsoe shitting the bed and being just a few games away from getting benched, permanently? Hey, whatever made-up argument you can come up with, sport!

It was humiliating because it was the first game back in Philly since he was run out of town, it was just after his narcotic overdose (the fans were chanting "OD, OD"), he had three catches for 45 yards against a not so great Philly secondary.

 

It took as long as it did to count the number of postseason games that Garcia has appeared in since he left the 49'ers. And one of those seasons was in relief of McNabb with the Eagles, who were making the playoffs annually.

 

Yes, the Eagles were making the playoffs annually----until TO's sophomore season.

 

He's as gay as TO was suicidal. Speaking of which, only in your warped little mind is it a crime to call someone gay, but it's okay to make fun of a (alleged) suicide attempt. Amazing. But hey, that's what we've come to expect from you in your short and entertaining time with us.

 

You miss the point. It's not like Garcia was caught in a closet patting down another man. TO just outed him because he had the opportunity to do so, to be cruel, not because he may actually be gay. Conversely, TO actually OD'd and it was initially reported as a possible suicide attempt. The typical PR circus that followed was classic TO drama.

 

 

But yeah, you're right. Garcia putting up good numbers by throwing to HOF WR's was all about him. While TO's been chugging along since parting ways with Garcia. Oh and Garcia is on his FIFTH team post-49'ers, which is two better (or worse) than TO, for those keeping score at home. Is it because he's a cancer, he sucks, or he's "been relegated to the back of the bus?"

And don't make me laugh comparing Garcia to Kelly, Mr. "Bills fan." But let me ask: give me the list of people you think might be presenting Garcia at his HOF induction? What, you're done already?

 

Look, you said Garcia was a "fraud". No facts to back it up. I pointed out that his numbers in SF, with TO, were pretty solid, in fact very similar to Kelly's best stretch (on a much better team). Garcia's performance after SF does not negate his results while he was there. In fact, he and TO were very good for eachother and TO has not doen better with another QB ever. You and TO cannot acknowledge this. Instead, you reach for the "some fan you are for questioning the greatness of Jim Kelly" noodle. Well played!

 

The "second year starting QB?" LOL! If Trent, who will be a 3rd year player and who has started 23 games in his 2 years in the league, can't put up a decent showing with TO, Evans, Reed, Lynch, Jackson, Fine, and Nelson, he's toast no matter what, get it?

 

Even you can do the math here--he is entering his second season as the starter, not the backup who keeps coming in for the poorly playing or injured 1st round bust who is out of the league. And while the WR are top notch, you're stretching it more than a bit by mentioning Fine and Nelson, who have yet to do anything in the league.

 

True, I have a long way to go to match your "Flutie and Jeff Garcia are gods" campaign.

 

See, this is what you do--you are fighting an army of straw men (I never even insinuated that either of those QBs was a "god", HOF caliber, or even great). You just made that up because you can't keep up. You say things like "Garcia was a fraud", "Flutie was as big a self promoter as TO" (or "the cops falsified the police report"--another gem), yet you simply can't back this up. Instead you say that all of the evidence of TO-like Flutie behavior disappeared before it could be documented in the internet! Now you glom onto this rant by some hometown hockey hack, which quotes no one, not even anonymously, and attributes nothing---all after Flutie has left town.

 

 

If you want to bash the best QB the Bills have had since Kelly (and he was, regardless of what he did before or after the Bills), then go ahead, Superfan. Make your people proud.

[thebandit27]

I guess the Pro Bowl voters and people who voted for the Comeback Player of the Year must have been blinded by Flutie Magic as well.

 

RJ's claim to fame is being the most sacked QB per dropback in NFL history. Flutie is our most successful QB since Kelly and I really don't understand why that is so hard for people to accept.

 

why do people keep thinking this thread has anything to do with johnson? stop going back to johnson. this thread is about flutie, not johnson. one more time: this thread is about flutie, not johnson. we know flutie was better than johnson. ok?

 

so your response to my assertion that flutie fans should "be objective and look at the numbers" about him is to say that he made the pro bowl and was voted comeback player of the year? nice analysis.

[thebandit27]

And you know this, because..... ?

 

 

Not exactly - I said that apparently most of the NFL front office-types were apparently completely 'in the dark' regarding the greatness that was so obvious to a handful of TSW posters.

 

 

"His inability to stay with any team for more than a cup or two of coffee" seems a bit hyperbolic, and one could argue that his playing in 3 professional football leagues over a 21-year career accounts for that.

 

1985 New Jersey Generals

1986 Chicago Bears

1987 Chicago Bears

1987 New England Patriots

1988 New England Patriots

1989 New England Patriots

1990 British Columbia Lions

1991 British Columbia Lions

1992 Calgary Stampeders

1993 Calgary Stampeders

1994 Calgary Stampeders

1995 Calgary Stampeders

1996 Toronto Argonauts

1997 Toronto Argonauts

1998 Buffalo Bills

1999 Buffalo Bills

2000 Buffalo Bills

2001 San Diego Chargers

2002 San Diego Chargers

2003 San Diego Chargers

2004 San Diego Chargers

2005 New England Patriots

 

* Pro Bowl selection (1998)

* 1984 Heisman Trophy

* 1984 Walter Camp Award

* 1984 Davey O'Brien Award

* 1984 Maxwell Award

* 1984 UPI Player of the Year

* 1998 NFL Comeback Player of the Year

* 3× Grey Cup champion

* 3× Grey Cup MVP (1992, 1996, 1997)

* 6× CFL's Most Outstanding Player (1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997)

* 1983 Liberty Bowl MVP

 

 

Yeah, he sucked.

 

so those college and canadian football awards (along with a selection to an even that equates to--as you say--a giant popolarity contest in 1998) are supposed to mean that he was a good NFL QB? sorry senator, still not buying it.