Upgrades/Downgrades 09-10

[ax4782]

Lets talk here and now 2009-2010

 

Certain people on this board have been drinking the kool aid in Buffalo.

 

There is absolutey no way Walker is an upgrade over Peters. Further, there is absolutely no way that whatever unproven, late round draft pick the Bills plug in at RT will be an upgrade over Walker, who I thought looked pretty good last year at RT (if he hadn't he wouldn't be getting moved).

 

At center, what you HAD, was a below average center in Fowler. He sucked, especially against Jenkins. HOWEVER, what you HAVE now is a college kid who has never seen an NFL DT. He MAY be an EVENTUAL upgrade, but TODAY, he's an athletic college kid who set down his beer long enough to show up on draft day. Sorry, but he's a DOWNGRADE for THIS season.

 

No one THIS YEAR will even come close to replacing Dockery. He was not worth the money, but our next best alternative, (which is what a responsible FO looks at) was ... you guessed it another college kid...who oh by the way...you reached for high in the draft...so now you get to pay him top flight money, kind of like Dockery, but without the experience.

 

So, for THIS YEAR, despite COMPLETELY losing our OL, We DID upgrade for ONE YEAR at WR, a backup QB, and 3rd string RB. So yeah, right...our Front office did a truly brilliant job....of dismantaling one of the better O-lines in the game and replacing them with college kids who MIGHT be good someday...

 

The Bills aren't going to put a late round pick at RT. Brad Butler who played RT for three years in college and who was our back up RT since he was drafted will play over on that side. He will be as good as Walker was at that position last year. Second, Wood is not going to play center. Hangartner is going to play center. That is an upgrade over Fowler/Preston. Perhaps you should watch some film from when he played C and G at Carolina before you start flapping your gums about his ability. The kid is a beast who ended up being cut b/c Carolina has insane salary cap issues. Dockery was terrible this season, and I don't think it was a "reach" to take the highest rated G prospect in the draft in the second round. Had you ever seen the guy play, you would understand why the Bills drafted him where they did. And finally, our great OL from last year couldn't block at LT. Google highest sacks given up in NFL 2009 and it probably links to Jason "I want more money or I'm sitting out" Peters ESPN bio. We could never convert on 3rd or 4th and inches and our five guys were consistently getting beaten by three men up front because our weak centers couldn't block an NFL 3-4 nose tackle. Sorry, but your arguments are just wrong and uneducated. I'm not saying the FO is the greatest in the league, but anyone who thinks the Bills didn't make the right moves in the first four rounds of this draft isn't paying attention. Would you rather we had drafted another flashy receiver like the Raiders without building up the wall to give the QB time to get him the ball? Our line was terrible last year and after years of whining, the Bills finally address those needs, and people still find reasons to complain. Somebody better call the whambulance.

[BB Fan 4 LIFE]

First off, most of your downgrades are completely moronic. Whether Levitre or Wood plays at LG, they will be better than Dockery who was absolutely terrible last season. Whether Wood or Hangartner start at C, they will be an immediate upgrade over Fowler or Preston. Both were undersized and sievelike in almost every game last year. Crowell didn't play last year, so it's really Ellison over himself which is just dumb, and I don't think he will be the starting WLB next year anyway. Lastly, McKelvin will be the replacement for Greer, and that's pretty much a wash. Sorry, but this really isn't nearly as bad as you think it was. Plus, I don't think Peters is going to turn out to be worth all the moolah he was asking for. As much as people want to see this draft as being glass half empty there just aren't enough reasons to think that. Most if not all of the Bills' first four picks are likely to be high quality starters at positions of need for this team, and our FA acquisitions are likely to be just as productive.

 

After reading your post the whole way through, I wanted to throw up too.

 

Name calling is for first graders. Are you a first grader?

 

A rookie is a rookie is a rookie is a rookie is a rookie. Being a rookie means that if you float along not knowing what you're doing, its expected. if you make an impact, it's a wonderful surprise.

 

You know, you're probably right, the unproven Wood or Levitre will be better than Dockery. No doubt. i'm sure you've seen tons of film of them pounding NFL nosetackles. Right? Dockery was definitely not better than a rookie. Right. That's why we paid him what we did, and its why the Skins are paying him that way now. All rookies are better than Dockery. ok.

 

Hangengartner is a backup, Wood is ... a Rookie. Can we say they upgrade from Folwer/Preston, no. We certainly hope so, but we really don't know anything about Wood in the NFL, and Hangegartner is a BAAACCKKKUPPP Buffalo!

 

Who are we getting to replace Crowell? Please, enlighten me. List for me the available talented OLBs we're scouting and willing to pay for. Son, sit down, I'm going to tell you something. In the old days, we would have a problem like this and the old man woudl sit down with his checkbook and make it go away. In case you haven't noticed, we haven't been to the playoffs in a DECADE, and those days are over. Ellison is probably our starter this year. Nevertheless, I agree that since we had Ellison last year, and we'll have him again this year, its even. I'm just disappointed we didn't resign Crowell.

 

McKelvin WAS ALREADY GOING TO REPLACE GREER...Hello... McFLYYY...So who is replacing Greer as our #3? Don't know? Neither does anyone else who has posted here. Don't be so gullible Mcfly.

[deep2evans]

Son, sit down, I'm going to tell you something. In the old days, we would have a problem like this and the old man woudl sit down with his checkbook and make it go away.

 

LOL. You sound like a World War II vet with that stupid language. How old are you? 86? I'm surprised you know how to use a computer.

[darkman]

Name calling is for first graders. Are you a first grader?

 

A rookie is a rookie is a rookie is a rookie is a rookie. Being a rookie means that if you float along not knowing what you're doing, its expected. if you make an impact, it's a wonderful surprise.

 

You know, you're probably right, the unproven Wood or Levitre will be better than Dockery. No doubt. i'm sure you've seen tons of film of them pounding NFL nosetackles. Right? Dockery was definitely not better than a rookie. Right. That's why we paid him what we did, and its why the Skins are paying him that way now. All rookies are better than Dockery. ok.

 

Hangengartner is a backup, Wood is ... a Rookie. Can we say they upgrade from Folwer/Preston, no. We certainly hope so, but we really don't know anything about Wood in the NFL, and Hangegartner is a BAAACCKKKUPPP Buffalo!

 

Who are we getting to replace Crowell? Please, enlighten me. List for me the available talented OLBs we're scouting and willing to pay for. Son, sit down, I'm going to tell you something. In the old days, we would have a problem like this and the old man woudl sit down with his checkbook and make it go away. In case you haven't noticed, we haven't been to the playoffs in a DECADE, and those days are over. Ellison is probably our starter this year. Nevertheless, I agree that since we had Ellison last year, and we'll have him again this year, its even. I'm just disappointed we didn't resign Crowell.

 

McKelvin WAS ALREADY GOING TO REPLACE GREER...Hello... McFLYYY...So who is replacing Greer as our #3? Don't know? Neither does anyone else who has posted here. Don't be so gullible Mcfly.

 

You have to be about 14-16 years old. I have to ask you, as you asked me. Have you watched any games lately? In previous posts you state that our dominate line was getting dismantled. I know you're not talking about the Bills.

 

Given your 8 post and statements to date, I don't think you are in any position or even think you know about football operations or players outside of Madden. Not that I know anything about it either, other than attempting to enjoy the game itself.

[bluenews]

Here's a breakdown of upgrades/downgrades at our positions for 2009-2010.

 

Upgrades

Owens for Reed

Rhodes for Omon

Kelsay for Kelsay on 1st&2d down + Maybin on 3d Down.

 

Downgrades:

LT Walker for Peters

RT Chambers for Walker

LG Lavitrie ® for Dockery

C Fowler for ® Wood/2d String Hangengartner (Rosenbagger)

OLB Ellison for Angelo Crowell

CB Youboty for Jabari Greer

 

 

Even:

Fine for Robert Royal

 

After writing this, I threw up in my mouth a little. Did I miss anything or inaccurately characterize the change?

 

Ctrl > P wipe ass with it!!

[ax4782]

Name calling is for first graders. Are you a first grader?

 

A rookie is a rookie is a rookie is a rookie is a rookie. Being a rookie means that if you float along not knowing what you're doing, its expected. if you make an impact, it's a wonderful surprise.

 

You know, you're probably right, the unproven Wood or Levitre will be better than Dockery. No doubt. i'm sure you've seen tons of film of them pounding NFL nosetackles. Right? Dockery was definitely not better than a rookie. Right. That's why we paid him what we did, and its why the Skins are paying him that way now. All rookies are better than Dockery. ok.

 

Hangengartner is a backup, Wood is ... a Rookie. Can we say they upgrade from Folwer/Preston, no. We certainly hope so, but we really don't know anything about Wood in the NFL, and Hangegartner is a BAAACCKKKUPPP Buffalo!

 

Who are we getting to replace Crowell? Please, enlighten me. List for me the available talented OLBs we're scouting and willing to pay for. Son, sit down, I'm going to tell you something. In the old days, we would have a problem like this and the old man woudl sit down with his checkbook and make it go away. In case you haven't noticed, we haven't been to the playoffs in a DECADE, and those days are over. Ellison is probably our starter this year. Nevertheless, I agree that since we had Ellison last year, and we'll have him again this year, its even. I'm just disappointed we didn't resign Crowell.

 

McKelvin WAS ALREADY GOING TO REPLACE GREER...Hello... McFLYYY...So who is replacing Greer as our #3? Don't know? Neither does anyone else who has posted here. Don't be so gullible Mcfly.

 

Pot meet kettle. I thought name calling was for first graders. I'll start with the points you made that actually make sense. First, Drayton Florence is likely to be our #3 corner. If not him then Youboty, and then Corner. Then one of the rooks. Sorry to burst your balloon, but some of us do pay attention to the team's roster.

 

Second, the Bills likely are still looking at Freddy Keiaho, Derrick Brooks, and as of yesterday, LeRoy Hill as replacements for Ellison. Read the news. It tends to enlighten on things such as who the Bills might be looking at in terms of upgrades at certain positions. Not to point out the obvious, but heck, you asked the question.

 

As for the second part of that second to last paragraph, I can tell you've been a fan for a long time. So have I. I remember the glory days and the more recent not so glory days. I'm very well versed on the Bills of the distant past. That's because I'm a fan, through the best and worst of times. I don't need people on a message board who apparently don't even pay attention to the players the Bills have brought in during FA to fill holes on the defense talking down and suggesting that I don't pay attention or care about the team. Sorry bub, go bark up another tree because you're dead wrong on that one too. Talking down to people is for kindergarten bullies, much worse than what the average first grader is capable of.

 

As for your statement concerning Hangartner, you're, again, clearly unfamiliar with his play in Carolina. He started far more games than he was a "backup." Carolina tried and wanted to resign him, but couldn't due to their insane cap issues. The guy started at both Center and Guard. Check his stats and you'll see that he was an excellent lineman on one of the best running OL's in football the past couple of years. He is bigger, faster, and stronger than the two centers we had last year who were adequate at best and tended to get pushed around by the bigger NTs in our division. He is not a backup caliber lineman, a fact you would know if you actually took the time to check his stats and actually had watched him play.

 

As for Dockery, don't cite the Redskins resigning him as a sign that he's just oh-so-good. The Redskins have a penchant for seriously overpaying on talent that isn't worth the contract they sign. He was not worth 7mil a season when he was in his prime and the Bills never should have paid him that much in the first place. He was the weakest link in our left side running attack last season and was frequently moved off blocks, despite his size and supposed athleticism. Both of the Gs we drafted this year will be better athletes and stronger athletes than Dockery ever was. Perhaps you remember back to the days when we drafted Jim Ritcher in the first round, or took Kent Hull early in the draft. Were those wasted picks? Do you remember suggesting that they would suck worse than the people they replaced, because if you did, you were wrong then. Just as I predict you'll be wrong with these two Gs we just drafted. They were top rated at their positions in one of the better interior linemen draft classes in a number of years.

 

Typically, interior linemen have better rookie seasons than most other positions. There is less to learn in terms of technique and footwork for interiors in NFL blocking schemes. I do expect that both of them will have an immediate impact. We'll get a sense of it in TC and in the Preseason when they'll get their first real action, but I fully expect that you pessimism will not be rewarded. I'm not saying the FO is great or that the whole draft was wonderful, but on the whole we upgraded at:

 

C

G

FS

TE

DE

 

Not bad on the whole. And I really don't think or expect that you are prepared to argue that replacing Robert Royal with anyone is a downgrade, are you?

[atlbillsfan1975]

This original post might be one of the worst posts i have ever seen. This guy has no clue about football much less the Bills.

Oh and McKelvin does replace Greer, and Florence was brought in as the nickle.

Somebody should have taught you the sayin "It is better to keep your mouth shut, and be thought a fool. Then to open your mouth and be a fool."

Good Luck BB fan 4 life. Just remember when the Buffalo offense is on the field you want first downs. And when the Buffalo defense is on the field you dont. Start with that concept and work your way up.

[Psaunders]

Here's a breakdown of upgrades/downgrades at our positions for 2009-2010.

 

Upgrades

Owens for Reed

Rhodes for Omon

Kelsay for Kelsay on 1st&2d down + Maybin on 3d Down.

 

Downgrades:

LT Walker for Peters

RT Chambers for Walker

LG Lavitrie ® for Dockery

C Fowler for ® Wood/2d String Hangengartner (Rosenbagger)

OLB Ellison for Angelo Crowell

CB Youboty for Jabari Greer

 

Um Well if u watch the games form last Peters played like crap plain and simple and the games Walker played LT he played better then trent, and fowler was benched because he played real sh#tty so Wood is an upgrade and it wont be youboty for Greer it will be McKelvin do u even know who is on the team and how they played?

 

 

Even:

Fine for Robert Royal

 

After writing this, I threw up in my mouth a little. Did I miss anything or inaccurately characterize the change?

[JJBuffalo]

Just wanna point out that nearly every returning player on our roster is still improving as a football player. IMO, the only few that aren't would be Schobel, Stroud, and maybe Mitchell... and out of those three you gotta think Schobel will have a better yr than last yr. What I'm trying to say is we have a great amount of players entering the prime of their careers that need to take that next step. Lynch, Evans, Edwards, Whitner, McGee, Poz, McKelvin, Williams and to a lesser extent Butler, Youboty, Jackson, Spencer Johnson should all improve from last year to this yr making all of these positions would be upgrades from last yr. So you cant just go by additions and subtractions. Opinions??

[BB Fan 4 LIFE]

First, Drayton Florence is likely to be our #3 corner. If not him then Youboty, and then Corner. Then one of the rooks. Sorry to burst your balloon, but some of us do pay attention to the team's roster.

 

No balloon burst here. I'm aware of who may be replacing Greer at corner. Are you saying any of these is an upgrade over Greer? My point was whoever is replacing Greer (who was our former #2) it will be a net loss. Youboty and Corner were below Greer on the depth chart last year, and would've been again this year if he stayed. Drayton Florence...I'll be honest, I'm not that familiar with. I fetl Greer was competent last year, and he would have been a great Nickel. I've heard Greer and Florence are about equal in terms of talent, that said, given that Florence is coming to our team new, and Greer had experience within our system, I grade this as a net loss.

 

Second, the Bills likely are still looking at Freddy Keiaho, Derrick Brooks, and as of yesterday, LeRoy Hill as replacements for Ellison. Read the news. It tends to enlighten on things such as who the Bills might be looking at in terms of upgrades at certain positions. Not to point out the obvious, but heck, you asked the question.

 

I think Crowell was pretty good. We could've re-signed him, we didn't. There is a chance we could sign one of these guys, and I hope we do. That being said, it hasn't happened. As it currently stands I grade releasing Crowell to replace him with Ellison a net loss.

 

As for your statement concerning Hangartner, you're, again, clearly unfamiliar with his play in Carolina. He started far more games than he was a "backup." Carolina tried and wanted to resign him, but couldn't due to their insane cap issues. The guy started at both Center and Guard. Check his stats and you'll see that he was an excellent lineman on one of the best running OL's in football the past couple of years. He is bigger, faster, and stronger than the two centers we had last year who were adequate at best and tended to get pushed around by the bigger NTs in our division. He is not a backup caliber lineman, a fact you would know if you actually took the time to check his stats and actually had watched him play.

 

Actually, Hangartner started the most games he had in his four year career: eight. That's 1/2 the season. I don't know what else to call him other than a backup. That being said, I'm praying he's better that Fowler, which doesn't seem too hard. However, again, we destroyed our continuity by releasing our the left side of our line and our center. If I had to concede on one thing, it woudl be that I don't know for sure one way or the other if Hangartner will be better at dealing with Wilfork and Jenkins than Fowler/Preston.

 

As for Dockery, don't cite the Redskins resigning him as a sign that he's just oh-so-good. The Redskins have a penchant for seriously overpaying on talent that isn't worth the contract they sign. He was not worth 7mil a season when he was in his prime and the Bills never should have paid him that much in the first place. He was the weakest link in our left side running attack last season and was frequently moved off blocks, despite his size and supposed athleticism. Both of the Gs we drafted this year will be better athletes and stronger athletes than Dockery ever was. Perhaps you remember back to the days when we drafted Jim Ritcher in the first round, or took Kent Hull early in the draft. Were those wasted picks? Do you remember suggesting that they would suck worse than the people they replaced, because if you did, you were wrong then. Just as I predict you'll be wrong with these two Gs we just drafted. They were top rated at their positions in one of the better interior linemen draft classes in a number of years..

 

As for Dockery, was he a superstar? no. He was a player we knew to be a competent guard in the NFL. He was a guy who was familiar with our system. He was a foundational building block.

 

My humble philosophy, is that when a Front office gets some building blocks in place, (which I think we had last year) you keep them there. You look for the icing to put on the cake. You can't put together a post season team if you're constantly trying to rebuild your foundation.

 

In Free Agency the front office released/did not re-sign the following starters.

Peters

Dockery

Crowell

Greer

Fowler

Preston

Royal

 

 

That's a lot of holes to plug with new people unfamiliar with the system. We did pick up Hangartner Rhodes (3drb) and TO in FA, but only one of those people actually filled a hole. I'd expect this from a team in a total rebuild mode like the Lions, not a team on the brink of the playoffs.

 

Our draft was good in light of the holes we created for ourselves to fill. That being said, imagine what we'd be if would could've been looking for the icing and not the baking powder.

[gflande1]

Did you become a BB Fan 4 Life after the Bills signed Owens? Doesnt seem like you saw many Bills games last year.

 

In the old days, we would have a problem like this and the old man woudl sit down with his checkbook and make it go away.

 

Are you thinking of Jerry Jones? I know it gets hard following a guy like Owens around and making it appear you have been there since the begining. You should change your name to OwensBallWasher4Life it will make it easier for the rest of us.

[BB Fan 4 LIFE]

Did you become a BB Fan 4 Life after the Bills signed Owens? Doesnt seem like you saw many Bills games last year.

 

 

 

Are you thinking of Jerry Jones? I know it gets hard following a guy like Owens around and making it appear you have been there since the begining. You should change your name to OwensBallWasher4Life it will make it easier for the rest of us.

 

No, actually I was thinking of Ralph Wilson in the early 90's...you remember...the decade we made the playoffs in?

 

How does what I said have anything to do with being a T.O. fan? Lets hope you don't read and write for a living. Fries with that?

[Kelly the Dog]

As for your statement concerning Hangartner, you're, again, clearly unfamiliar with his play in Carolina. He started far more games than he was a "backup." Carolina tried and wanted to resign him, but couldn't due to their insane cap issues. The guy started at both Center and Guard. Check his stats and you'll see that he was an excellent lineman on one of the best running OL's in football the past couple of years. He is bigger, faster, and stronger than the two centers we had last year who were adequate at best and tended to get pushed around by the bigger NTs in our division. He is not a backup caliber lineman, a fact you would know if you actually took the time to check his stats and actually had watched him play.

Hangartner was always a back-up, for all of his four years. He was pressed into being a starter because of injury in two of the four years, and started half of his career games (27-54). He has played pretty well, and yes, they did want to resign him, probably as a back-up. If he played there this year he would likely be on the bench, although he may have got a shot to unseat one of the two starting guards. Still, he wasn't at all a lock to be a starter on the Panthers this year if he stayed, probably why he left so fast.

 

It remains to be seen if he will be a good player on the Bills. We had high hopes for Fowler, too. I don't trust John Guy to recognize talent but Hangartner may turn out to be good. I don't think we can automatically count on that though.

[BillsVet]

Hangartner was always a back-up, for all of his four years. He was pressed into being a starter because of injury in two of the four years, and started half of his career games (27-54). He has played pretty well, and yes, they did want to resign him, probably as a back-up. If he played there this year he would likely be on the bench, although he may have got a shot to unseat one of the two starting guards. Still, he wasn't at all a lock to be a starter on the Panthers this year if he stayed, probably why he left so fast.

 

It remains to be seen if he will be a good player on the Bills. We had high hopes for Fowler, too. I don't trust John Guy to recognize talent but Hangartner may turn out to be good. I don't think we can automatically count on that though.

 

I'd also add that after Hangartner's 2 seasons in the league, Carolina drafted Ryan Kalil in the second out of USC in 07. Teams don't use top picks on centers they don't intend to play. Hangartner may be a fine backup, but he's not proven he can start long term. It's not like Hangartner received big money, reportedly 4 yrs and 10M.

 

Additionally, drafting Wood makes me wonder if he's the fall-back should GH struggle. It's pure speculation, but it's not outside the of the question to say the front office wants options on the OL.

 

I don't trust the front office, despite the new players who entered this off-season. They need to prove something before receiving credit for anything.

[John from Riverside]

Here's a breakdown of upgrades/downgrades at our positions for 2009-2010.

 

Upgrades

Owens for Reed

Rhodes for Omon

Kelsay for Kelsay on 1st&2d down + Maybin on 3d Down.

 

Downgrades:

LT Walker for Peters

RT Chambers for Walker

LG Lavitrie ® for Dockery

C Fowler for ® Wood/2d String Hangengartner (Rosenbagger)

OLB Ellison for Angelo Crowell

CB Youboty for Jabari Greer

 

 

Even:

Fine for Robert Royal

 

After writing this, I threw up in my mouth a little. Did I miss anything or inaccurately characterize the change?

 

Did you miss anything? What did you get right?

 

I guess you could say the OT's would probably be accurate....past that....do a little more reading.

[Sherman]

I don't think anyone who is not a Bills fan (which I am) would say Walker for Peters is an Upgrade.

 

We don't really know what we have in walker at LT yet but if he can play in 14 games and give up 10 sacks or less then he will be an upgrade over Peters.

[Kelly the Dog]

We don't really know what we have in walker at LT yet but if he can play in 14 games and give up 10 sacks or less then he will be an upgrade over Peters.

 

Only if one counts the unofficial sacks against total as the complete measure of an LT, which if one did, shows he or she knows less than zero about NFL football.

[gflande1]

No, actually I was thinking of Ralph Wilson in the early 90's...you remember...the decade we made the playoffs in?

 

How does what I said have anything to do with being a T.O. fan? Lets hope you don't read and write for a living. Fries with that?

 

I remember the 90s, I actually had season tickets with my brother at the time. I've been a Bills fan since 1973.

 

As far as the fry comment, I have done more and lived more in this lifetime than you ever will. With 17 years in the armed forces and two long deployments to Iraq, I have had my share of life. You made one of the worst analyis of the Bills off season, but Im the one who serves fries.

 

As far as the TO comment, I noticed you became a member after Owens signed with the team. Thats where the comment came from. Guess I was just in a bad mood. Sorry...Owens fans are probably more knowledgable about the bills than you.

[nemhoff]

Did you happen to watch Dockery and Peters block last year? It would be hard to get much worse.

[Sherman]

Only if one counts the unofficial sacks against total as the complete measure of an LT, which if one did, shows he or she knows less than zero about NFL football.

 

Protect the QB and open holes for the RB. Did I miss anything? Is a lineman supposed to do more? He didn't do a good job of protecting the QB and the line as a whole did not do a good job of opening holes for the RB.