Why haven't we tagged Greer?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

This is all excellent discussion and I guess we'll know soon enough what his value is or at least what the market will bear (they may or may not be the same thing).

 

The Bills had some options:

Offer him a contract: I don't think they did. Could be a mistake. Maybe not. Maybe they like who they have and want the money for other things.

Let him walk: We get nothing in return.

Sign and trade: We would need to find a willing partner before we sign him. Contract and return compensation would need to be established before the trade. He gets his money, we get compensation. Did we look into this? I hope so.

Tag and trade: We possibly get something in return in the trade but that's not guaranteed because we possibly put ourselves in a position of overpaying for a player that we can't trade because we've priced him out. This last scenario assumes that he signs the franchise offer and then refuses to rip it up in exchange for a long term deal. We would be bound by it then.

 

So there's a lot of moving parts. I woulda offered him a deal at around $5 mil per. If he wasn't inclined to sign it I woulda looked for a trade partner and done a sign and trade. I don't understand how you don't at least try to get something for your assets.

[Magox]

I'm not talking about keeping him. I think I've been quite clear and in the thread about Kelvin Hayden that the idea is:

 

TAG AND THEN TRADE HIM.

 

There are multiple teams in need of a solid cover CB with plenty of cap room. Teams like KC, TB, MIA, DET, and SF have room to use for a CB and 25M+ to spend. After today, there are three fewer options in UFA this year now that Dunta Robinson, Nnamdi Asomugha, and Dunta Robinson are unavailable. The Giants also placed a 2nd round tender on one of their CB's today.

 

Every year the board underestimates how much players get in UFA. We may think collectively that 9.9M is too much for Greer, and it is. But the market, not fan opinion, dictates how much is spent on these guys. No one ever thought Nate Clements would get the deal he did. No one thought Bob Sanders would get the contract he did. Or Adalius Thomas. And no one around here saw the Bills signing about the 4th best guard in UFA for 49M over 7 years.

 

Be prepared to be surprised when Greer signs a deal somewhere around 35-40M over 5-6 years after 2/27. Tagging and trading won't be that bad of an idea after he moves on to greener pastures.

I just believe it is too big of a risk to assume that if we tag him that someone will want to trade for him. I think the risk is overpaying by about $4-5 Million a year. For $4-5 Million a year we could pick up a Crowell and a Kitna. We could Sign Peters, that would be about the difference of what he is getting payed now. We could probably sign a Vilma for close to that amount. There is a lot we can do with that money.

 

To me, unless the Bills Brass had a strong inclination that we could get a trade for him, the risk to me out weighs the retention of Greer through tagging him. Let's just make him a decent multiyear contract, 5 year $25Million with about $13Million Gauranteed. That's a lot of cash to pass up, especially for someone who never made anywhere near that sort of money. He may just stay.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I just believe it is too big of a risk to assume that if we tag him that someone will want to trade for him. I think the risk is overpaying by about $4-5 Million a year. For $4-5 Million a year we could pick up a Crowell and a Kitna. We could Sign Peters, that would be about the difference of what he is getting payed now. We could probably sign a Vilma for close to that amount. There is a lot we can do with that money.

 

To me, unless the Bills Brass had a strong inclination that we could get a trade for him, the risk to me out weighs the retention of Greer through tagging him. Let's just make him a decent multiyear contract, 5 year $25Million with about $13Million Gauranteed. That's a lot of cash to pass up, especially for someone who never made anywhere near that sort of money. He may just stay.

Agreed, they should have either worked out a reasonable deal or found a trade partner and did a sign and trade.

 

Yes, if he walks that is money for someone like Vilma or whomever.

[BillsVet]

I just believe it is too big of a risk to assume that if we tag him that someone will want to trade for him. I think the risk is overpaying by about $4-5 Million a year. For $4-5 Million a year we could pick up a Crowell and a Kitna. We could Sign Peters, that would be about the difference of what he is getting payed now. We could probably sign a Vilma for close to that amount. There is a lot we can do with that money.

 

To me, unless the Bills Brass had a strong inclination that we could get a trade for him, the risk to me out weighs the retention of Greer through tagging him. Let's just make him a decent multiyear contract, 5 year $25Million with about $13Million Gauranteed. That's a lot of cash to pass up, especially for someone who never made anywhere near that sort of money. He may just stay.

 

As BADOL has pointed out, we're worried about spending 5M more than we'd like on Greer for a one year franchise tender. But we're not concerned when Peerless Price gets 4 yrs and 10M, Robert Royal and the same deal, Larry Tripplett and his 5 yr 18.5M deal, or Melvin Fowler for 3 yrs and 7M.

 

Not parlaying assets into receivables is why this franchise is suffering, as people like Tim Graham have pointed out.

 

Nine seasons in a row without the playoffs. It's time to demand some accoutability from the front office. This is one example of how the team could have been improved. But the minimal risk is holding people back.

[Magox]

As BADOL has pointed out, we're worried about spending 5M more than we'd like on Greer for a one year franchise tender. But we're not concerned when Peerless Price gets 4 yrs and 10M, Robert Royal and the same deal, Larry Tripplett and his 5 yr 18.5M deal, or Melvin Fowler for 3 yrs and 7M.

 

Not parlaying assets into receivables is why this franchise is suffering, as people like Tim Graham have pointed out.

 

Nine seasons in a row without the playoffs. It's time to demand some accoutability from the front office. This is one example of how the team could have been improved. But the minimal risk is holding people back.

I understand what your saying, but we can't justify future moves based on prior bad decisions. Those decisions were made. The past is the past, and hopefully the people in charge will learn from those mistakes. Those past decisions to me, in my opinion, don't justify making another bad decision by over paying a good player by $4 to 5 Million a year. Just because he's been good for us doesn't mean you overpay him.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I understand what your saying, but we can't justify future moves based on prior bad decisions. Those decisions were made. The past is the past, and hopefully the people in charge will learn from those mistakes. Those past decisions to me, in my opinion, don't justify making another bad decision by over paying a good player by $4 to 5 Million a year. Just because he's been good for us doesn't mean you overpay him.

Yes, but I think BillsVet is advocating a sign and trade, not a tag and trade.

[Mr. WEO]

Someone here said we are deep enough at CB. If we can't sign him or tag and trade him.....so be it.

 

I think he's a solid CB, but no CB is wothr that kind of money. These guys come up with a team, have a breakout year at the end of their contract, get tagged or get a new contract as a FA and make an insane amount of money.

 

The end result? Neither the team that gets him or lets him go is any better or worse off. Bly, Clements, Samuel, Hall (TWO teams wasted money on him in ONE SEASON!)---none of those moves really improved the teams that blew all that cash and the teams that gave them up were no worse off--in some cases they got better BETTER.

 

There may be only a few "top CBs" in the league, but....so what? The league is producing new ones every year. Even so, the position just cannot have an impact on the game commensurate with the insane cost for a "top CB". Teams have done very well without "top CBs". The Pats won a few SBs without one (they had a WR playing CB!). The Cards passing D gave up like 36 TDs this year---no one else was even close to this bad.

 

Look at the contract that the Raiders just handed out tokeep their "top CB". Look at the money they've tied up in CB and their 350 lb. QB.

 

It's nuts.

[Tcali]

Greer wants to stay in Buffalo, so if Buffalo wants him, we could likely get a home town discount. So just signing him outright makes more sense...

exactly

[DazedandConfused]

As BADOL has pointed out, we're worried about spending 5M more than we'd like on Greer for a one year franchise tender. But we're not concerned when Peerless Price gets 4 yrs and 10M, Robert Royal and the same deal, Larry Tripplett and his 5 yr 18.5M deal, or Melvin Fowler for 3 yrs and 7M.

 

Not parlaying assets into receivables is why this franchise is suffering, as people like Tim Graham have pointed out.

 

Nine seasons in a row without the playoffs. It's time to demand some accoutability from the front office. This is one example of how the team could have been improved. But the minimal risk is holding people back.

This would seem to be an argument that actually is against franchising Greer though since I think there is fairly general agreement among fans (and even from Bills brass who have definitely given up on or reportedly given up on Triplett amd Price who are gone and and Fowler whom Bills Daily says will be cut and Royal whom Bills Daily says may well be cut.

 

Arguing that extending a big contract to Greer is the same as extending risk to 4 players who disappointed big time as Bills would seem to be a good reason not to take the same "minimal" risk with a player who seems at best good but not great in Greer.

[lets_go_bills]

I wouldn't mind seeing Buffalo sign Greer to a similar deal that the Eagles just gave Hanson. Something along the line of 4 years, $21 million, $6.4 guaranteed.

[H2o]

so what is stopping us from keeping Greer around? He's a good corner, maybe not worth a top ten price, but what the hell, for a year, give him some money and see how things work out. Maybe McKelvin will be great, maybe McGee will go downhll. Who knows? Every other team except Miami seems to be tagging somebody. Doesn't that make you think it might be a plan?

 

I like Jabari Greer and we have the cap room. Plus, there is nobody else worth franchising on this sad sack of a team.

Would it make too much sense for our braintrust to get off their asses?

Why haven't we tagged Greer? Simple, he's not worth it.

[bananathumb]

Why haven't we tagged Greer? Simple, he's not worth it.

 

 

He isn't worth it, eh? Like we have a lot of better players.

 

Here's what a real team does to keep valuable players around: Please read it

 

 

PITTSBURGH (AP)—Offensive tackle Max Starks was designated as the Pittsburgh Steelers’ franchise player on Thursday, the second successive year they have retained the two-time Super Bowl starter by placing a tag on him.

 

Starks made $6.9 million last year as a transition player, although he didn’t begin the season as a starter. He ended up starting 11 games at left tackle after Marvel Smith was injured.

 

“We were happy we had Max Starks available to us when he was needed,” Steelers director of football operations Kevin Colbert said. “We were fortunate that he was still here because he gave us an experienced guy who had played as a starter in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl.”

 

Starks was the Steelers’ right tackle when they won the Super Bowl during the 2005 season.

 

By being designated as a franchise player, Starks will make $15.35 million over the 2008 and 2009 seasons, unless he agrees to a long-term deal— considerable money for Pittsburgh to pay a player who didn’t make their lineup at the start of last season.

 

Starks must make $8.451 million in 2009, the average of the NFL’s top five offensive linemen last season.

 

Another team could sign Starks because he is designated as non-exclusive, but that team would owe the Steelers a pair of first-round draft picks.

[silvermike]

Sign and trade: We would need to find a willing partner before we sign him. Contract and return compensation would need to be established before the trade. He gets his money, we get compensation. Did we look into this? I hope so.

 

I honestly don't remember the last time an NFL team pulled this off - signing a pending UFA and trading him before the season. Can you think of an example?

[nucci]

Yeah, he likes Buffalo, but I'm sure he is going to love the team that offers him a long term deal for much more than the Bills are willing to pay. Of course he is going to say he likes it here. Just remember, it is all about the money and it would not be smart of him to sign with the Bills without seeing what others offers are out there.

[H2o]

He isn't worth it, eh? Like we have a lot of better players.

 

Here's what a real team does to keep valuable players around: Please read it

 

 

PITTSBURGH (AP)—Offensive tackle Max Starks was designated as the Pittsburgh Steelers’ franchise player on Thursday, the second successive year they have retained the two-time Super Bowl starter by placing a tag on him.

 

Starks made $6.9 million last year as a transition player, although he didn’t begin the season as a starter. He ended up starting 11 games at left tackle after Marvel Smith was injured.

 

“We were happy we had Max Starks available to us when he was needed,” Steelers director of football operations Kevin Colbert said. “We were fortunate that he was still here because he gave us an experienced guy who had played as a starter in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl.”

 

Starks was the Steelers’ right tackle when they won the Super Bowl during the 2005 season.

 

By being designated as a franchise player, Starks will make $15.35 million over the 2008 and 2009 seasons, unless he agrees to a long-term deal— considerable money for Pittsburgh to pay a player who didn’t make their lineup at the start of last season.

 

Starks must make $8.451 million in 2009, the average of the NFL’s top five offensive linemen last season.

 

Another team could sign Starks because he is designated as non-exclusive, but that team would owe the Steelers a pair of first-round draft picks.

 

$9,957,000 is how much the franchise # was for a CB. You mean to tell me that you want to commit right at $10,000,000 of our cap dollars to a guy who will be playing NCB unless some one gets hurt and not use that money elsewhere, namely a big time player who's going to change the dynamic of our team like Haynesworth. That is entirely too much money to commit to a guy like Greer. CB is probably our best and deepest position on our team with McKelvin, McGee, Corner, and Youboty. Does Greer fit in to the mix with those guys and help our team? Yes. Is what he brings to our team worth $10,000,000 in cap space? NO.

[BillsVet]

He isn't worth it, eh? Like we have a lot of better players.

 

Here's what a real team does to keep valuable players around: Please read it

 

PITTSBURGH (AP)—Offensive tackle Max Starks was designated as the Pittsburgh Steelers’ franchise player on Thursday, the second successive year they have retained the two-time Super Bowl starter by placing a tag on him.

 

It's no use. Many Bills fans here choose not to follow or ignore happenings and trends around the league. Starks is a fine example of a player not worth the franchise tender, but who will receive it.

 

It's not about how much money the tag is worth. It's not about how good or not people think Greer is. It's got everything to do with making the most out of what you have as there's a limit to how many cap dollars and draft picks a team has.

 

We can argue about it all day, but when you have a UFA who will command attention on the open market, you get something for them. DL Corey Williams from GB was franchised last season and subsequently traded to Cleveland for a second round pick. That's how a real front office handles this sort of thing.

 

There are about 3 CB's in UFA who will have good offers in front of them, and Greer is one.

 

It's non-moves like this which allow the Bills to continue rebuilding season after season without ever getting anywhere. Then again, maybe that's the way they like it.

[BillsVet]

$9,957,000 is how much the franchise # was for a CB. You mean to tell me that you want to commit right at $10,000,000 of our cap dollars to a guy who will be playing NCB unless some one gets hurt and not use that money elsewhere, namely a big time player who's going to change the dynamic of our team like Haynesworth. That is entirely too much money to commit to a guy like Greer. CB is probably our best and deepest position on our team with McKelvin, McGee, Corner, and Youboty. Does Greer fit in to the mix with those guys and help our team? Yes. Is what he brings to our team worth $10,000,000 in cap space? NO.

 

TAG and TRADE.

 

Not TAG and retain.

[H2o]

TAG and TRADE.

 

Not TAG and retain.

Tag and trade? I think that we would get no offer better than a 4th for Greer, honestly. What if no one takes the bait and offers us a decent package? We'd be stuck. He's really not talked of as being that sought after around NFL circles. When they were talking about all of the possible FA CB's that other teams were looking to strike a deal with, how mant times did you hear Greer's name? I, for one, didn't ever hear it mentioned in the same breeath as Hayden, Asomugha, Johnson, Robinson, Foxworth, Bartell, McFadden, Buchanon, Hall, or Hanson. He's not an elite CB that is going to garner that much attention. He's a servicable guy, at best, that has played well for us the last couple of seasons.

[BillsVet]

Tag and trade? I think that we would get no offer better than a 4th for Greer, honestly. What if no one takes the bait and offers us a decent package? We'd be stuck. He's really not talked of as being that sought after around NFL circles. When they were talking about all of the possible FA CB's that other teams were looking to strike a deal with, how mant times did you hear Greer's name? I, for one, didn't ever hear it mentioned in the same breeath as Hayden, Asomugha, Johnson, Robinson, Foxworth, Bartell, McFadden, Buchanon, Hall, or Hanson. He's not an elite CB that is going to garner that much attention. He's a servicable guy, at best, that has played well for us the last couple of seasons.

 

You underestimate the market. Greer is one of the last available decent CB's left. He had more picks than Hayden, and took back his 2 INT's for scores. He played solid football until getting injured.

 

More than 12 teams have 20M+ in cap room, and while it's being done that way to combat the uncapped year in 2010, Greer will get a sizable offer regardless.

 

Those names you mention, several of them are already off the market. Hayden, Asomugha, D. Robinson. Naturally, the remaining guys will benefit from all these moves.

 

Those guys aren't better because they play for other teams. They're simply unknown to many on this board who know Greer.