Kenwick Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Last year Mr. Wilson lost huge money keeping the franchise in Western New York Let me explain his reasoning (or mine) for this......At $51.24 a seat average times 71,000 seats = $3,638,040 a game...... But if he were in another location say in Toronto he could charge double that amount minimum,..... So that means he lost for 2008 ... $3,638,404 times 8 ....($29,107,232) Last year with a salary cap of 116 million he actually spent 29 million under the cap........(I learned this from Fox Sports) So he actually made up the loss (in his mind) by not spending to the cap that he was allowed. He also made money with GM Russ Brandon's guidance by having the Toronto deal which gives him another 78 million over 5 years. Now I see why he loves Russ Brandon so much. He makes more money marketing the team then would his football knowledge. Mr. Wilson's goals are for the Bills to sell out. That is a must. He is not worried about that at all for the walk up sales on game day give him sellouts game after game. He could care less if the game is blacked out. He does not lose any money if games are blacked out. Remember all the TV money is shared by each team regardless. So far he is doing just fine financially. Well isn't it what the game is really about these days? What he must do however is have players on the field that allow them to win close to half of there games. This allows the team to reach maximum effectiveness salary wise. Teams make the most money for the owner when they are in the middle of the pack out of the 32 teams. When teams are in the bottom 8 or top 8 they often need to spend more money on talent. Many smaller market teams do not spend all they are allowed to spend. They have money problems too. There are a handful of owners who are willing to shell out all they can for they are in big market areas where they can have high ticket prices, sell lots of team goods and they love the power and popularity they get owning the team. By the way they make the most money because of the big drawing power of large cities ..... To wrap all this up I expect to see Mr. Wilson who is allowed to spend 123 million this season on players salaries to actually spend in the neighborhood around 92 million or 25% less, give or take. Hopefully he will spend a lot more. After all I am a Bills fan and want the best for the team. But what kind of team will we see with him spending 92 million on player salaries? The same as last year with a change of players is all and the team finishing with a record no better than 5 wins and 11 losses..... At the least......and again out of the playoffs....with us screaming for a change of coaches...... When the real problem is, well you know now don't you..... Remember we have been under the cap now since the early Tom Donahoe days. We are not making the playoffs because we are not spending all the money allowable like the larger cities. Yet the owner is definitely making his competitive share with other owners at the fans expense. Do not expect this to change until the Bills have new ownership ......... or he has a change of mind and actually spends what he is allowed to spend. Go Bills ...... by the way those are my thoughts only....... what are yours ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 What he must do however is have players on the field that allow them to win close to half of there games. This allows the team to reach maximum effectiveness salary wise. Teams make the most money for the owner when they are in the middle of the pack out of the 32 teams. When teams are in the bottom 8 or top 8 they often need to spend more money on talent. Many smaller market teams do not spend all they are allowed to spend. They have money problems too. There are a handful of owners who are willing to shell out all they can for they are in big market areas where they can have high ticket prices, sell lots of team goods and they love the power and popularity they get owning the team. By the way they make the most money because of the big drawing power of large cities ..... by the way those are my thoughts only....... what are yours ? This is why I will always be against the cap and "parity." Parity is the leagues "wet dream"... Everybody 8-8 (with maybe a few exceptions). The game is becoming bad because of what WE the fans have been promoting and thinking. WE buy right into the so-called cap "ideals" and the crap they are selling. As much as I hate the Pats* and laugh that they missed the playoffs @ 11-5... Has there been any WORSE NFL season than this one just passed? Teams made the playoffs at 8-8 and 9-7 and went the 9-7 and 9-6-1 teams went deep towards and into the championship games... While other 11-5 (gasp!), 9-7, 8-8 teams sat home. Again... Quite a scam they got going to keep everybody "reeled in." A huh! We're buying what they are selling. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Kenwick, I can't argue with anything you've stated in the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 then when you add in that some players will take less to play with certain players, or certain teams (like Moss wanting to play in NE for less then what he is actually worth on an open market) it makes things even harder for some teams even though the cap is supposed to help small teams cause some players have values based on what teams want them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 This is why I will always be against the cap and "parity." Parity is the leagues "wet dream"... Everybody 8-8 (with maybe a few exceptions). The game is becoming bad because of what WE the fans have been promoting and thinking. WE buy right into the so-called cap "ideals" and the crap they are selling. As much as I hate the Pats* and laugh that they missed the playoffs @ 11-5... Has there been any WORSE NFL season than this one just passed? Teams made the playoffs at 8-8 and 9-7 and went the 9-7 and 9-6-1 teams went deep towards and into the championship games... While other 11-5 (gasp!), 9-7, 8-8 teams sat home. Again... Quite a scam they got going to keep everybody "reeled in." A huh! We're buying what they are selling. My 2 cents. There is a minimum cap number as well. All teams are required to spend to the minimum. I don't have the number but it exists. I'm glad to see the Bills didn't spend all the way to the cap on the mediocrity that they are fielding. A 7-9 team in cap jail would be even harder to take. You might be right on Wilson's agenda to manage to maximum profitability which would explain the retention of Jauron who is cheaper than many coaches and unlikley with his personality to push the owner on any matter. While we don't like this now as fans, there could be amazing wisdom in what Ralph is doing. By managing to more profit, any potential next owner could see that the team can make money in Buffalo. That might help to keep it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKOOBY Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 RW is not losing money on the Bills, it's silly to even say as much. $25,000 turned into $750 M divided by 50 years, so he's made ~$15 M a year outside the gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwws9999 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 RW is not losing money on the Bills, it's silly to even say as much. $25,000 turned into $750 M divided by 50 years, so he's made ~$15 M a year outside the gate. nowhere id you mention how much he gets off the tv deal. ralph is making plenty of money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwws9999 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 not to mention that nfl has revenue sharing so he makes money off the road games as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKOOBY Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 nowhere id you mention how much he gets off the tv deal. ralph is making plenty of money The TV deals have gotten alot bigger over the past 10 years but his overall return has trumped that by alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Last year Mr. Wilson lost huge money keeping the franchise in Western New York Let me explain his reasoning (or mine) for this......At $51.24 a seat average times 71,000 seats = $3,638,040 a game...... But if he were in another location say in Toronto he could charge double that amount minimum,..... So that means he lost for 2008 ... $3,638,404 times 8 ....($29,107,232) Last year with a salary cap of 116 million he actually spent 29 million under the cap........(I learned this from Fox Sports) So he actually made up the loss (in his mind) by not spending to the cap that he was allowed. He also made money with GM Russ Brandon's guidance by having the Toronto deal which gives him another 78 million over 5 years. Now I see why he loves Russ Brandon so much. He makes more money marketing the team then would his football knowledge. Mr. Wilson's goals are for the Bills to sell out. That is a must. He is not worried about that at all for the walk up sales on game day give him sellouts game after game. He could care less if the game is blacked out. He does not lose any money if games are blacked out. Remember all the TV money is shared by each team regardless. So far he is doing just fine financially. Well isn't it what the game is really about these days? What he must do however is have players on the field that allow them to win close to half of there games. This allows the team to reach maximum effectiveness salary wise. Teams make the most money for the owner when they are in the middle of the pack out of the 32 teams. When teams are in the bottom 8 or top 8 they often need to spend more money on talent. Many smaller market teams do not spend all they are allowed to spend. They have money problems too. There are a handful of owners who are willing to shell out all they can for they are in big market areas where they can have high ticket prices, sell lots of team goods and they love the power and popularity they get owning the team. By the way they make the most money because of the big drawing power of large cities ..... To wrap all this up I expect to see Mr. Wilson who is allowed to spend 123 million this season on players salaries to actually spend in the neighborhood around 92 million or 25% less, give or take. Hopefully he will spend a lot more. After all I am a Bills fan and want the best for the team. But what kind of team will we see with him spending 92 million on player salaries? The same as last year with a change of players is all and the team finishing with a record no better than 5 wins and 11 losses..... At the least......and again out of the playoffs....with us screaming for a change of coaches...... When the real problem is, well you know now don't you..... Remember we have been under the cap now since the early Tom Donahoe days. We are not making the playoffs because we are not spending all the money allowable like the larger cities. Yet the owner is definitely making his competitive share with other owners at the fans expense. Do not expect this to change until the Bills have new ownership ......... or he has a change of mind and actually spends what he is allowed to spend. Go Bills ...... by the way those are my thoughts only....... what are yours ? Your analysis of the business side of the Bills is correct and there were many years with this franchise that I concurred completely. But We just may be in a new era. Assuming the Bills can hold thier own on Ticket and suite Sales and that is a big if. Ralph Wilson's odds of surviving the next 5 years are less than 50-50. He is going to run out of time before he runs out of money even if we factor in a large estate for his heirs. We will know a few day after the 28th of this month what Wilson's intentions are. I do not think it's about the money anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 This is why I will always be against the cap and "parity." Parity is the leagues "wet dream"... Everybody 8-8 (with maybe a few exceptions). The game is becoming bad because of what WE the fans have been promoting and thinking. WE buy right into the so-called cap "ideals" and the crap they are selling. As much as I hate the Pats* and laugh that they missed the playoffs @ 11-5... Has there been any WORSE NFL season than this one just passed? Teams made the playoffs at 8-8 and 9-7 and went the 9-7 and 9-6-1 teams went deep towards and into the championship games... While other 11-5 (gasp!), 9-7, 8-8 teams sat home. Again... Quite a scam they got going to keep everybody "reeled in." A huh! We're buying what they are selling. My 2 cents. The league has achieved exactly what they wanted and it's great for the game (IMO). Because of this parity, each year most all teams are still alive for the playoffs in December, each year new teams make the playoffs that were not there the year prior, each year the playoff games are highly competitive, and each year the Super Bowl is a good game between 2 evenly matched teams. Hence, more people watch for longer. I still don't get why it's such a bad thing for an 11-5 team that can't win it's division is not in the playoffs, while a 9-7 team that can is in. As to the original posters thoughts... the amount of money spent on FAs this year is irrelevant. Ralph could pay for every top dollar FA on the market and we'll still be an average team next season. There's one area he needs to spend money on and he's already made that decision - he's standing pat on the coaching staff. Does anyone really think a great, veteran backup QB is going to help this team win? Or lets pay big bucks and get the best WR in the league - just so he can run around while we dump off to the RBs. And just how good would Haynesworth look dropping back every other down in pass coverage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKOOBY Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Your analysis of the business side of the Bills is correct and there were many years with this franchise that I concurred completely. But We just may be in a new era. Assuming the Bills can hold thier own on Ticket and suite Sales and that is a big if. Ralph Wilson's odds of surviving the next 5 years are less than 50-50. He is going to run out of time before he runs out of money even if we factor in a large estate for his heirs. We will know a few day after the 28th of this month what Wilson's intentions are. I do not think it's about the money anymore. You must of missed Ralph's HoF speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 RW is not losing money on the Bills, it's silly to even say as much. $25,000 turned into $750 M divided by 50 years, so he's made ~$15 M a year outside the gate. You're talking basically about inflation and value here. Its not like he has that $750M just sitting in his bank account waiting to be spent, he won't see any of that until the team is no longer his. $25,000 back then was worth alot more then it is right now. Plus, he has had to spend money in that time to run this team too. Its not like he put $25,000 into an account back then and sat around for 40-50 years letting the money collect interest and grow, not having to spend a dime in the process to keep that investment growing. Does anyone know exactly what it costs to run an NFL Football team on a yearly basis? Or do most just think that the only costs are what is spent on the players and coaches salary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantstopbeastmode Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Last year Mr. Wilson lost huge money keeping the franchise in Western New York Let me explain his reasoning (or mine) for this......At $51.24 a seat average times 71,000 seats = $3,638,040 a game...... But if he were in another location say in Toronto he could charge double that amount minimum,..... So that means he lost for 2008 ... $3,638,404 times 8 ....($29,107,232) Last year with a salary cap of 116 million he actually spent 29 million under the cap........(I learned this from Fox Sports) So he actually made up the loss (in his mind) by not spending to the cap that he was allowed. He also made money with GM Russ Brandon's guidance by having the Toronto deal which gives him another 78 million over 5 years. Now I see why he loves Russ Brandon so much. He makes more money marketing the team then would his football knowledge. Mr. Wilson's goals are for the Bills to sell out. That is a must. He is not worried about that at all for the walk up sales on game day give him sellouts game after game. He could care less if the game is blacked out. He does not lose any money if games are blacked out. Remember all the TV money is shared by each team regardless. So far he is doing just fine financially. Well isn't it what the game is really about these days? What he must do however is have players on the field that allow them to win close to half of there games. This allows the team to reach maximum effectiveness salary wise. Teams make the most money for the owner when they are in the middle of the pack out of the 32 teams. When teams are in the bottom 8 or top 8 they often need to spend more money on talent. Many smaller market teams do not spend all they are allowed to spend. They have money problems too. There are a handful of owners who are willing to shell out all they can for they are in big market areas where they can have high ticket prices, sell lots of team goods and they love the power and popularity they get owning the team. By the way they make the most money because of the big drawing power of large cities ..... To wrap all this up I expect to see Mr. Wilson who is allowed to spend 123 million this season on players salaries to actually spend in the neighborhood around 92 million or 25% less, give or take. Hopefully he will spend a lot more. After all I am a Bills fan and want the best for the team. But what kind of team will we see with him spending 92 million on player salaries? The same as last year with a change of players is all and the team finishing with a record no better than 5 wins and 11 losses..... At the least......and again out of the playoffs....with us screaming for a change of coaches...... When the real problem is, well you know now don't you..... Remember we have been under the cap now since the early Tom Donahoe days. We are not making the playoffs because we are not spending all the money allowable like the larger cities. Yet the owner is definitely making his competitive share with other owners at the fans expense. Do not expect this to change until the Bills have new ownership ......... or he has a change of mind and actually spends what he is allowed to spend. Go Bills ...... by the way those are my thoughts only....... what are yours ? WHy are you saying he could charge at least double 3 mil and then saying it comes out to 29 mil? Double means multiply by 2, not 8. Plus the people in Toronto didn't even go to their one game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 then when you add in that some players will take less to play with certain players, or certain teams (like Moss wanting to play in NE for less then what he is actually worth on an open market) it makes things even harder for some teams even though the cap is supposed to help small teams cause some players have values based on what teams want them. Bingo! Collusion begets more collusion. You are better off leaving the league without a cap in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 The league has achieved exactly what they wanted and it's great for the game (IMO). Because of this parity, each year most all teams are still alive for the playoffs in December, each year new teams make the playoffs that were not there the year prior, each year the playoff games are highly competitive, and each year the Super Bowl is a good game between 2 evenly matched teams. Hence, more people watch for longer. I still don't get why it's such a bad thing for an 11-5 team that can't win it's division is not in the playoffs, while a 9-7 team that can is in. As to the original posters thoughts... the amount of money spent on FAs this year is irrelevant. Ralph could pay for every top dollar FA on the market and we'll still be an average team next season. There's one area he needs to spend money on and he's already made that decision - he's standing pat on the coaching staff. Does anyone really think a great, veteran backup QB is going to help this team win? Or lets pay big bucks and get the best WR in the league - just so he can run around while we dump off to the RBs. And just how good would Haynesworth look dropping back every other down in pass coverage? Because a team is stuck in their divison grouping forever... There is a caste system that exists that has a pretty exterior. Unless you are the Colts or Seahawks... I may agree with you that parity is good... If everybody played each other EVERY season and it was one big league with no divisions and conferences. And you are exactly right in the blue part above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Your analysis of the business side of the Bills is correct and there were many years with this franchise that I concurred completely. But We just may be in a new era. Assuming the Bills can hold thier own on Ticket and suite Sales and that is a big if. Ralph Wilson's odds of surviving the next 5 years are less than 50-50. He is going to run out of time before he runs out of money even if we factor in a large estate for his heirs. We will know a few day after the 28th of this month what Wilson's intentions are. I do not think it's about the money anymore. I dunno--I think Ralph looks preetty damn healthy for 90.....I bet his life expectancy is about 7 or 8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenwick Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 There is a minimum cap number as well. All teams are required to spend to the minimum. I don't have the number but it exists. I'm glad to see the Bills didn't spend all the way to the cap on the mediocrity that they are fielding. A 7-9 team in cap jail would be even harder to take. You might be right on Wilson's agenda to manage to maximum profitability which would explain the retention of Jauron who is cheaper than many coaches and unlikley with his personality to push the owner on any matter. While we don't like this now as fans, there could be amazing wisdom in what Ralph is doing. By managing to more profit, any potential next owner could see that the team can make money in Buffalo. That might help to keep it there. Yes there is a cap number which is not talken about very often........... I believe they owners must spent 70% of the cap every year. They get to keep in their own pockets the rest. That is why Ralphie boy spends only 25 % less then the cap to keep himself out of salary cap hell by not under spending. It will be interesting to see how much he actually spends this year out of the 123 million he is allowed to spend. I am not sure if he can spend the 29 million he saved in 2008 and add it to the 123 million allowed this year. I do not know the rules on that. Got any advise ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Last year Mr. Wilson lost huge money keeping the franchise in Western New York Go Bills ...... by the way those are my thoughts only....... what are yours ? It's nice that you apparently can read Ralph Wilson's mind. Underlying your analysis is an assumption that Ralph looks at the Bills as some sort of investment or money maker for himself. Owners of NFL teams buy them and hold them to be part of an exclusive club not to make money. As a pure investment pro teams in any league today are pretty lousy when looking at the opportunity costs of what could be done with the money otherwise. This is not to deny that RW's original investment has grown tremendoulsy in value but from a cash flow and profitablility standpoint (the true measure of "real" investments) no NFL franchise is going to get 5 stars. The reason why their value escalates over time is that there are a very limited number of teams available and there is a notariety factor in being able to say " I am the owner of..." They become major status symbols for a select few. At this point in his life my guess is that Ralph simply enjoys owning the team. I think he wants the franchise to be financially sound but is not looking to make money in terms of free cash to his bank account. From what little i can observe my guess is that Ralph is and has been a very astute manager of his fortune. While the Bills are an important part of his net worth they hardly pay his bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art in PNS Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 RW is not losing money on the Bills, it's silly to even say as much. $25,000 turned into $750 M divided by 50 years, so he's made ~$15 M a year outside the gate. Accurate only if he sells the team and gets 750 MM for the team. This kind of "REFINANCING " you speak of is why so many people can't afford their mortgages today. I agree however that he is not hurting based on the Value of the team but this is not liquid especially in todays credit market. I expect to see some of the free wheeling teams to be more cautious this time out and will be surprised if there are all of the expected blockbuster deals for free agents. On another note I think Ralph made it to the hall this year because so many of the talking heads that smeared him 2 years ago are trying to avoid eating crow with both fists right now after the owners voted down the labor deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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