BillsVet Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Bottomline, if Trent pans out into a franchise QB, Marv did a great job. It's really that simple. If he doesn't, it will look a lot more questionable. But I think it is completely unrealistic to make any hard judgements about his tenure because he was only here 2 years in the GM role. He had to completely rebuild after the TD mess. You need at least 3 years (though 5 years is probably a better gauge for the GM position) to completely put your stamp on a team. Your posts really make me laugh. According to you, no one is ever at fault while this team struggles to remain relevant in the NFL. It's fine to blame TD for 01-05 and perhaps 06. But from 07 forward, the failures of this franchise should be squarely on Levy, Brandon, and Ralph. No excuses. Two years is plenty of time to rebuild a franchise. With UFA and good drafts there are several teams who've made it happen. Some will disagree, but the franchise is no better now than it was when Marv took over. Ask Tom Dimitroff and Mike Smith how long it took him to rebuild. Ask Bill Parcells and Tony Sparano. Ask Ozzie Newsome and John Harbaugh. They've all turned around teams rather quickly. And while they're doing that, Buffalo is stuck in the muddle with the accelerator barely pressed. So go ahead and make exceptions for everyone. We're still waiting for a season we can be proud of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Your posts really make me laugh. According to you, no one is ever at fault while this team struggles to remain relevant in the NFL. It's fine to blame TD for 01-05 and perhaps 06. But from 07 forward, the failures of this franchise should be squarely on Levy, Brandon, and Ralph. No excuses. From '07 onward, the failure of this franchise is squarely on Jauron. In going 0-4 vs Phins & Jets, there are four plays in each game that would have swung the L to W. Looking up & down the roster, this team is better than the one Levy inherited, which is where the comparison should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 His biggest fault was not Jauron. It was re-signing Kelsay to a monster contract, signing Dockery to a monster deal, and re-signing an aging Schobel when he had 3 years left on his deal. The total value of those contracts is almost $150M. Don't blame Ralph because he clearly showed a willingness to spend money. The problem is that the personnel department failed to use those resources wisely. Jauron wasn't a great head coaching hire, but I'm sick and tired of fans going after the head coach every 2 years. The constant in all this ineptitude has been the front office: Overdorf, Modrak, Guy, etc... the blame falls squarely on them. IN the 2 years Marv was at the helm, he had final say on all personnel decisions and I'm sorry to say the buck stops there. Yes, I'm sure the poor decisions in free agency and the draft have very little to do with the on-field performance of the Bills. It's all Jauron. Get your facts straight. Marv never said they favored Cutler at that spot. He simply stated that if they were to choose a QB at that spot, they would have chosen Jay Cutler. The front office had no intention of picking a quarterback, as they were still ready to give JP Losman one last chance to secure the job. And even if you were right in your assertion and Jauron was responsible for the Whitner pick, it still falls on Marv because he had final say on all personnel decisions. Standing back and watching your team pick an overrated safety at #8 does not make a good GM, no matter how you spin it. I'll certainly agree that Modrak, Overdorf and Guy consistently get a free pass. Doesn't change the fact that the personnel decisions in those 2 years were, for the most part, illadvised. Yes, so crappy players getting cut for marginally better players is a sign of progress??? Like Dwayne Wright losing his job to Xavier Omon? Your standards are awfully low... and I think that about sums it up. Isn't prognosticating great, when looking at it in hindsight? I'm not going to go over your crusade again, but doesn't even you stop for a second to think about the hilarity of slamming Levy for not taking a DL Ngata over DB Whitner, in the same breath that you slam Levy for keeping a DL Kelsay over DB Clements? Oh, I know, you're a better personnel evaluator than OBD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 From '07 onward, the failure of this franchise is squarely on Jauron. In going 0-4 vs Phins & Jets, there are four plays in each game that would have swung the L to W. Looking up & down the roster, this team is better than the one Levy inherited, which is where the comparison should be. Marv hired DJ after observing his shortcomings in Chicago for five seasons. I don't know how many games Marv saw from 99-03, but he should have known better to hire DJ. I will freely admit it could have been due to conditions Wilson set: 1. The coach have previous HC exprience and... 2. He be cheap (less than 1.5M per) I agree DJ has been bad and responsible for no less than those 4 losses this season. But Marv's biggest decision was his first, and he went with the wrong guy. Bears fans knew that in 03 Jauron was terrible. Why couldn't Marv figure that out as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Isn't prognosticating great, when looking at it in hindsight? Only that it isn't hindsight. Many objective posters questioned those moves as they happened. I'm not going to go over your crusade again, but doesn't even you stop for a second to think about the hilarity of slamming Levy for not taking a DL Ngata over DB Whitner, in the same breath that you slam Levy for keeping a DL Kelsay over DB Clements? The hilarity is you trying to compare strategic decisions in the draft vs. strategic decisions in free agency. The fact that you equate the two speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Bears fans knew that in 03 Jauron was terrible. Why couldn't Marv figure that out as well? Because I will freely admit it could have been due to conditions Wilson set: 1. The coach have previous HC exprience and... 2. He be cheap (less than 1.5M per) Other than Jauron or Richie Kotite, name another coach that fits those credentials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Your posts really make me laugh. According to you, no one is ever at fault while this team struggles to remain relevant in the NFL. It's fine to blame TD for 01-05 and perhaps 06. But from 07 forward, the failures of this franchise should be squarely on Levy, Brandon, and Ralph. No excuses. Two years is plenty of time to rebuild a franchise. With UFA and good drafts there are several teams who've made it happen. Some will disagree, but the franchise is no better now than it was when Marv took over. Ask Tom Dimitroff and Mike Smith how long it took him to rebuild. Ask Bill Parcells and Tony Sparano. Ask Ozzie Newsome and John Harbaugh. They've all turned around teams rather quickly. And while they're doing that, Buffalo is stuck in the muddle with the accelerator barely pressed. So go ahead and make exceptions for everyone. We're still waiting for a season we can be proud of. And go head crown the Falcons and Dolphins. I mean they had one year. Let's see if they last. Miami got every break imaginable on their schedule. I'm sure this year when Pennington has his annual come back to earth season and they switch to Henne, there will be no drop off. The Falcons were a borderline playoff team every year when they had Vick. They lost him and finally got Ryan, who had one of the greatest rookie seasons in history. They got lucky with that selection. But I do think they are in great shape. i just laugh at all this whining that accomplishes absolutely nothing. There is nothing easier in life than sitting back and analyzing mistakes people makes. The facts are this is one of the youngest teams in the NFL, that has a very young QB, and a ton of cap room. This is a very good situation that most GMs would love to start with. And that is because of Marv. Marv isn't at fault anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 The hilarity is you trying to compare strategic decisions in the draft vs. strategic decisions in free agency. The fact that you equate the two speaks volumes. When you run a fantasy league perhaps the two are different. When you run a real team, and it's your own money, then there's no difference, because both are a part of the total personnel decisions. You get the best players you can to fill out the roster on a real cash budget that you set. Never mind that the timing of one doesn't exactly coincide with the other, and you have much greater certainty in controlling one than the other. Never mind the role that injuries, behind the scenes activity and contract status of other players have on total personnel decisions. But I admit, the franchise was doomed on the day they didn't draft Ngata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Isn't prognosticating great, when looking at it in hindsight? I'm not going to go over your crusade again, but doesn't even you stop for a second to think about the hilarity of slamming Levy for not taking a DL Ngata over DB Whitner, in the same breath that you slam Levy for keeping a DL Kelsay over DB Clements? Oh, I know, you're a better personnel evaluator than OBD. Now that I think about it, Marv was a good GM. No wonder he gets offer after offer from around the league. I mean....he has been flooded with them since Ralph pushed him out 12 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 When you run a fantasy league perhaps the two are different. When you run a real team, and it's your own money, then there's no difference, because both are a part of the total personnel decisions. You get the best players you can to fill out the roster on a real cash budget that you set. Never mind that the timing of one doesn't exactly coincide with the other, and you have much greater certainty in controlling one than the other. Never mind the role that injuries, behind the scenes activity and contract status of other players have on total personnel decisions. I was just pointing out the flaw in your comparison between: (a) Signing Kelsay and (b) Passing on Ngata. But I admit, the franchise was doomed on the day they didn't draft Ngata. Seems like it's you who has the Ngata crusade and not me. The Whitner selection, albeit awful, hardly doomed the franchise. Teams miss on draft picks every year. Problem is, the ineptitude of the front office didn't end there. A series of boneheaded moves by the front office (Whitner, McCargo, Royal, Kelsay, Dockery, Triplett, etc...) DID doom the franchise. Blame Jauron all you want (and he deserves plenty) but the front office is even more to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Marv hired DJ after observing his shortcomings in Chicago for five seasons. I don't know how many games Marv saw from 99-03, but he should have known better to hire DJ. I will freely admit it could have been due to conditions Wilson set: 1. The coach have previous HC exprience and... 2. He be cheap (less than 1.5M per) I agree DJ has been bad and responsible for no less than those 4 losses this season. But Marv's biggest decision was his first, and he went with the wrong guy. Bears fans knew that in 03 Jauron was terrible. Why couldn't Marv figure that out as well? can we trade you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 can we trade you? Why? Does he make too much sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Why? Does he make too much sense? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I was just pointing out the flaw in your comparison between: (a) Signing Kelsay and (b) Passing on Ngata. Seems like it's you who has the Ngata crusade and not me. The Whitner selection, albeit awful, hardly doomed the franchise. Teams miss on draft picks every year. Problem is, the ineptitude of the front office didn't end there. A series of boneheaded moves by the front office (Whitner, McCargo, Royal, Kelsay, Dockery, Triplett, etc...) DID doom the franchise. Blame Jauron all you want (and he deserves plenty) but the front office is even more to blame. Nothing like holding a franchise to a 100% standard. Name another team that doesn't have it's share of misses. I think the point of Levy's brief tenure here, as recounted many times, was to re-establish the team identity and direction. Granted it should take a few years and you won't hit on 100% of your moves, but the point is that you will not have wild swings from year to year. The "mistake" on many of those guys weren't costly, as they weren't meant to be the franchise guys who tied up the cap for years and prevented other moves. I'd say out of the list, McCargo is the biggest mistake. As opposed to wasting 3 draft picks and good cap space on failed QB, or the annual RB quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Now that I think about it, Marv was a good GM. No wonder he gets offer after offer from around the league. I mean....he has been flooded with them since Ralph pushed him out 12 years ago. Got a link to Marv's offers over the years? or is it just word on the streets in the big apple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Got a link to Marv's offers over the years? or is it just word on the streets in the big apple? Link: LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Link: LINK Thanks coach, I undesrstand he sarcastically is saying that Marv has been flooded with offers and he means the opposite. The link I was looking for was the one that says Marv hasn't had offers from other teams over the last 12 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwc41 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 This season is critical for DJ? Why weren't the last ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Nothing like holding a franchise to a 100% standard. Name another team that doesn't have it's share of misses. I think the point of Levy's brief tenure here, as recounted many times, was to re-establish the team identity and direction. Granted it should take a few years and you won't hit on 100% of your moves, but the point is that you will not have wild swings from year to year. The "mistake" on many of those guys weren't costly, as they weren't meant to be the franchise guys who tied up the cap for years and prevented other moves. I'd say out of the list, McCargo is the biggest mistake. As opposed to wasting 3 draft picks and good cap space on failed QB, or the annual RB quest. 100% standard ? We are not requesting that and I agree that no team is perfect. However, our misses far outnumber the hits. The one consistency we have is mediocrity. I am not blaming Levy or Jauron alone but this organization as a whole does not know how to win. We can argue till the cows come home about who is more to blame but the fact remains that organizations such as the Steelers, Cowboys, Ravens, Colts find ways to be relevant and competitive year after year whereas we wallow in the bottom with the Lions and Bengals. There are few mistakes that really set back the entire franchise (Mike Williams may be one) but all these collective miscues show up in the pathetic season record we repeatedly sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Other than Jauron or Richie Kotite, name another coach that fits those credentials. If Marv knew he'd have to hire a has been, I'd expect his Ivy League education to kick in and use the leverage he had (RW needed him badly) to demand a little more power to find a coach. Marv knew he had some sway over Ralphie, and it's obvious in the signings of Dockery, Walker, Schobel, and Kelsay. Why didn't he then have some say over his head coach selection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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