Some Of You Have Probably Done This But...

[Chief Loves Bills]

This is my first post so please take it easy huh?!?!?

 

A lot of you may have already taken a look at these numbers but I think they are very telling. I grabbed a handful of stats from QBs that won many games, as well as championships, in their career and compared them to Trent. Basically I wanted to see if Trent could add up to some of the best in their first years. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Now, I know you could argue a great deal of issues: teams, coaches, surrounding receivers, years of play, as well as a host of others, but simply taking a look at the numbers you can see that not every good quaterback comes off the block running on all cylinders. Are Trent's numbers any better? Nope. Are they much worse. Nope. Do they kinda fall in line with the others even though some of these QBs had better staffs and more seasoned players? Sure.

 

The bottomline is this. Lets give Trent a chance. He is a smart kid, who got banged up in his first full year, under a losing coach, along with a first year offensive system.

 

And lest we forget...he comes recommended by one of the game's greatest: Bill Walsh.

 

 

Year Age Team Position Games Games Record Comp Att Comp% Yrds TD INT

Played Started

 

T. Aikman 1989 23 DAL QB 11 11 0-11-0 155 293 52.9 1749 9 18

1990 24 DAL QB 15 15 7-8-0 226 399 56.6 2579 11 18

 

 

 

T. Bradshaw 1970 22 PIT QB 13 8 3-5-0 83 218 38.1 1410 6 24

1971 23 PIT QB 14 13 5-8-0 203 373 54.4 2259 13 22

 

D. Brees 2002 23 SDG QB 16 16 8-8-0 320 526 60.8 3284 17 16

2003 24 SDG QB 11 11 2-9-0 205 356 57.6 2108 11 15

 

S. Young 1985 24 TAM QB 5 5 1-4-0 72 138 52.2 935 3 8

1986 25 TAM QB 14 14 2-12-0 195 363 53.7 2282 8 13

 

W. Moon 1984 28 HOU QB 16 16 3-13-0 259 450 57.6 3338 12 14

1985 29 HOU QB 14 14 4-10-0 200 377 53.1 2709 15 19

 

J. Elway 1983 23 DEN QB 11 10 4-6-0 123 259 47.5 1663 7 14

1984 24 DEN QB 15 14 12-2-0 214 380 56.3 2598 18 15

 

T. Edwards 2007 24 BUF QB 10 9 5-4-0 151 269 56.1 1630 7

2008 25 BUF QB 12 214 324 66.0 2378 10 10

 

Thoughts on the numbers?

[Dan]

I must confess... I've done that; but only once. Does that make me a bad person?

[dietlbomb]

Me too, but I make sure to lock the door first.

[The Big Cat]

 

Yeah? And?

[Like A Mofo]

Epic Fail

[Alphadawg7]

Year Age Team Position Games Games Record Comp Att Comp% Yrds TD INT

Played Started

 

T. Aikman 1989 23 DAL QB 11 11 0-11-0 155 293 52.9 1749 9 18

1990 24 DAL QB 15 15 7-8-0 226 399 56.6 2579 11 18

 

 

 

T. Bradshaw 1970 22 PIT QB 13 8 3-5-0 83 218 38.1 1410 6 24

1971 23 PIT QB 14 13 5-8-0 203 373 54.4 2259 13 22

 

D. Brees 2002 23 SDG QB 16 16 8-8-0 320 526 60.8 3284 17 16

2003 24 SDG QB 11 11 2-9-0 205 356 57.6 2108 11 15

 

S. Young 1985 24 TAM QB 5 5 1-4-0 72 138 52.2 935 3 8

1986 25 TAM QB 14 14 2-12-0 195 363 53.7 2282 8 13

 

W. Moon 1984 28 HOU QB 16 16 3-13-0 259 450 57.6 3338 12 14

1985 29 HOU QB 14 14 4-10-0 200 377 53.1 2709 15 19

 

J. Elway 1983 23 DEN QB 11 10 4-6-0 123 259 47.5 1663 7 14

1984 24 DEN QB 15 14 12-2-0 214 380 56.3 2598 18 15

 

I am assuming your point here is (as you didnt mention one) that these QB's stunk in their first 2 years and then became great and that you are implying TE could do the same...

 

This argument is old and tired for one and completely biased. For every one of the HOF caliber players you list here, I can list 100 Akili Smiths, Ryan Leafs, Andre Wares, Todd Marinovichs, Heath Shulers, Cade McNowns, etc, etc, etc...that stunk or struggled early in their career and NEVER got better.

 

So these comparisons are such lousy points and only paint a tiny piece of a picture. By this Logic we should keep JP Losman as he has the best season betwen him and TE under his belt and has NEVER had 2 FULL years to start full time, let alone play consistently in the same system, so he still could turn out to be the next Steve Young by this logic.

[Chief Loves Bills]

Sorry!! Accidental Discharge. I added my comments.

 

[Chief Loves Bills]

I am assuming your point here is (as you didnt mention one) that these QB's stunk in their first 2 years and then became great and that you are implying TE could do the same...

 

This argument is old and tired for one and completely biased. For every one of the HOF caliber players you list here, I can list 100 Akili Smiths, Ryan Leafs, Andre Wares, Todd Marinovichs, Heath Shulers, Cade McNowns, etc, etc, etc...that stunk or struggled early in their career and NEVER got better.

 

So these comparisons are such lousy points and only paint a tiny piece of a picture. By this Logic we should keep JP Losman as he has the best season betwen him and TE under his belt and has NEVER had 2 FULL years to start full time, let alone play consistently in the same system, so he still could turn out to be the next Steve Young by this logic.

 

The issue I have is that a lot of people are ASSUMING Trent will turn out to be the Akili Smiths, Ryan Leafs, Andre Wares, Todd Marinovichs, Heath Shulers, Cade McNowns, etc, etc, etc as you say. How, with what we have seen in his good and bad, can you make that judgement yet. I don't think one can.

[Alphadawg7]

The issue I have is that a lot of people are ASSUMING Trent will turn out to be the Akili Smiths, Ryan Leafs, Andre Wares, Todd Marinovichs, Heath Shulers, Cade McNowns, etc, etc, etc as you say. How, with what we have seen in his good and bad, can you make that judgement yet. I don't think one can.

 

True...but here is my issue with Trent, who I was high on coming into the year and even bought his jersey and still wear it every Sunday.

 

His comeback wins were a little over rated. When you comeback and win, it over shadows the struggles earlier in the game. 2 of those comeback wins he was bailed out by amazing plays by other players. If we lose those games, people start talking about how Trent stuggled most of the game instead of how he led the game winning drive. Even the Hardy catch was in my mind a lucky break as Hardy has shown to drop a lot of easeier passes and that pass was not a great pass, Hardy just made a great play.

 

Still, something has to be said for making the comeback and getting us the win, but if you look at his overall body of work in those games, they were mostly marginal and against HORRID defenses and teams. Against Oakland he was terrible when pressured and it wasnt until Oakland stopped bringing as much pressure that he started to move the ball. In fact its also why he struggled against St. Louis too...

 

So, fast forward to post concussion. He not only continues to be marginal (exception KC) but also begins to just stink it up with turnovers, bad decisions, and a complete lack of confidence. Now, I am FINE with a young QB being marginal and stuggling as it is to be expected.

 

My REAL issue comes down to this...

 

He regressed even more when faced with pressure and adversity then became so gun shy that when we gave him tons of time to throw he still couldnt let the ball go, even when replays showed WR's open. The TRUE GREATS you listed above kept slinging the ball when they struggled...they kept pressing on and played through it. I did not see that from Trent.

 

So now we have a guy who has proven physically FRAGILE at every level of football he has played now showing he may potentially also have a FRAGILE mind set and ego. Thats not good when his biggest selling point was his alleged poise and confidence.

 

I want the kid to turn it around, but he has shown me something that really concerns me and something not a lot of players overcome...I hope hes the exception.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

The issue I have is that a lot of people are ASSUMING Trent will turn out to be the Akili Smiths, Ryan Leafs, Andre Wares, Todd Marinovichs, Heath Shulers, Cade McNowns, etc, etc, etc as you say. How, with what we have seen in his good and bad, can you make that judgement yet. I don't think one can.

Because he looks like Losman.

[ieatcrayonz]

This is my first post so please take it easy huh?!?!?

I will take it easy but please realize that all year long while Trent has looked like a girlish version of Rob Johnson, people have been comparing him to great all time QBs. It gets a little tiresome. I think the only HoF QB I haven't seen him compared to is Sammy Baugh.

 

Oh wait, I've got one. Sammy Baugh just died and Trent looks like death on the field. This proves Edwards=the next Baugh.

[Chief Loves Bills]

I will take it easy but please realize that all year long while Trent has looked like a girlish version of Rob Johnson, people have been comparing him to great all time QBs. It gets a little tiresome.

 

I don't want to make it seem like I am comparing him to HOF QBs becuase I am not in any way. I don't know, and no one else does either, what he will turn out to be. My point is simply this: He has showed some great promise at this level while being surrounded with a great deal of issues that are discussed here on a daily basis. The other QBs I mentioned also showed great promise without turning in great years.

 

I am no waying saying that Trent is the next Kelly, he may actually never be good. However, with the promise he has shown, in his little time as a starter, we would be naive to assume that we already know he will never be great.

[Flbillsfan#1]

None of the QB's you are comparing Trent with were INJURY PRONE which Trent IS. Even if he were to develop & play great HE CAN"T stay on the field. Over the years there have been a number of players that COULD have been GREAT if they weren't ALWAYS injured. If you want to compare Trent, you need to compare him to the likes of Bobby Douglas not HOF players like Bradshaw & the others who were RARELY injured.

[Dan]

I am no waying saying that Trent is the next Kelly, he may actually never be good. However, with the promise he has shown, in his little time as a starter, we would be naive to assume that we already know he will never be great.

Multiple posters have made the same assumption about Poz, Hardy, McKelvin, Lynch, Whitner, JP, Butler, Youboty, and Fine. Why can't we make naive assumptions about Trent, as well?

[Alphadawg7]

None of the QB's you are comparing Trent with were INJURY PRONE which Trent IS. Even if he were to develop & play great HE CAN"T stay on the field. Over the years there have been a number of players that COULD have been GREAT if they weren't ALWAYS injured. If you want to compare Trent, you need to compare him to the likes of Bobby Douglas not HOF players like Bradshaw & the others who were RARELY injured.

 

 

I know its off topic, but I personally think Bradshaw might be the most over rated QB of all time...not saying he wasnt good, but he is really over rated. That was considered by most the greatest D of all time coupled with one of the greatest running games of all time. He was the Trent Dilfer of his day...just dont screw up and we win...he didnt have to win many games for them.

 

Still, in his defense, you have to be good still to do that, but he gets listed as one of the greatest ever which is why I think he is over rated. He didnt win those Super Bowls for them, that D and run game did most the work.

[Chief Loves Bills]

Multiple posters have made the same assumption about Poz, Hardy, McKelvin, Lynch, Whitner, JP, Butler, Youboty, and Fine. Why can't we make naive assumptions about Trent, as well?

 

I guess my issue is that everyone is so quick to make a judgement when one or two things go wrong. Can we as fans look at college careers and NFL game play and make educated judgements? Sure. Thats what we are here for right? But my problem is with those that watch Trent (or Poz, Fine etc) play one bad game and then they jump on here and scream for him to be traded and or whatever else someone can come up with.

 

We need to remember not every great player steps in and wins championships, thats what the stats are for.

 

Because he has shown the ability to play well and win, unlike JP, we need to give him more time to prove himself. If he is terrible this time next year then fine. But we cannot make the judgement yet.

[Dan]

Multiple posters have made the same assumption about Poz, Hardy, McKelvin, Lynch, Whitner, JP, Butler, Youboty, and Fine. Why can't we make naive assumptions about Trent, as well?

 

I guess my issue is that everyone is so quick to make a judgement when one or two things go wrong. Can we as fans look at college careers and NFL game play and make educated judgements? Sure. Thats what we are here for right? But my problem is with those that watch Trent (or Poz, Fine etc) play one bad game and then they jump on here and scream for him to be traded and or whatever else someone can come up with.

We need to remember not every great player steps in and wins championships, thats what the stats are for.

 

Because he has shown the ability to play well and win, unlike JP, we need to give him more time to prove himself. If he is terrible this time next year then fine. But we cannot make the judgement yet.

Agree completely.

[Tcali]

This is my first post so please take it easy huh?!?!?

 

A lot of you may have already taken a look at these numbers but I think they are very telling. I grabbed a handful of stats from QBs that won many games, as well as championships, in their career and compared them to Trent. Basically I wanted to see if Trent could add up to some of the best in their first years. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Now, I know you could argue a great deal of issues: teams, coaches, surrounding receivers, years of play, as well as a host of others, but simply taking a look at the numbers you can see that not every good quaterback comes off the block running on all cylinders. Are Trent's numbers any better? Nope. Are they much worse. Nope. Do they kinda fall in line with the others even though some of these QBs had better staffs and more seasoned players? Sure.

 

The bottomline is this. Lets give Trent a chance. He is a smart kid, who got banged up in his first full year, under a losing coach, along with a first year offensive system.

 

And lest we forget...he comes recommended by one of the game's greatest: Bill Walsh.

 

 

Year Age Team Position Games Games Record Comp Att Comp% Yrds TD INT

Played Started

 

T. Aikman 1989 23 DAL QB 11 11 0-11-0 155 293 52.9 1749 9 18

1990 24 DAL QB 15 15 7-8-0 226 399 56.6 2579 11 18

 

 

 

T. Bradshaw 1970 22 PIT QB 13 8 3-5-0 83 218 38.1 1410 6 24

1971 23 PIT QB 14 13 5-8-0 203 373 54.4 2259 13 22

 

D. Brees 2002 23 SDG QB 16 16 8-8-0 320 526 60.8 3284 17 16

2003 24 SDG QB 11 11 2-9-0 205 356 57.6 2108 11 15

 

S. Young 1985 24 TAM QB 5 5 1-4-0 72 138 52.2 935 3 8

1986 25 TAM QB 14 14 2-12-0 195 363 53.7 2282 8 13

 

W. Moon 1984 28 HOU QB 16 16 3-13-0 259 450 57.6 3338 12 14

1985 29 HOU QB 14 14 4-10-0 200 377 53.1 2709 15 19

 

J. Elway 1983 23 DEN QB 11 10 4-6-0 123 259 47.5 1663 7 14

1984 24 DEN QB 15 14 12-2-0 214 380 56.3 2598 18 15

 

T. Edwards 2007 24 BUF QB 10 9 5-4-0 151 269 56.1 1630 7

2008 25 BUF QB 12 214 324 66.0 2378 10 10

 

Thoughts on the numbers?

there are lies,m;fing lies..and worse ->there are statistics

[Captain Hindsight]

True...but here is my issue with Trent, who I was high on coming into the year and even bought his jersey and still wear it every Sunday.

 

His comeback wins were a little over rated. When you comeback and win, it over shadows the struggles earlier in the game. 2 of those comeback wins he was bailed out by amazing plays by other players. If we lose those games, people start talking about how Trent stuggled most of the game instead of how he led the game winning drive. Even the Hardy catch was in my mind a lucky break as Hardy has shown to drop a lot of easeier passes and that pass was not a great pass, Hardy just made a great play.

 

Still, something has to be said for making the comeback and getting us the win, but if you look at his overall body of work in those games, they were mostly marginal and against HORRID defenses and teams. Against Oakland he was terrible when pressured and it wasnt until Oakland stopped bringing as much pressure that he started to move the ball. In fact its also why he struggled against St. Louis too...

 

So, fast forward to post concussion. He not only continues to be marginal (exception KC) but also begins to just stink it up with turnovers, bad decisions, and a complete lack of confidence. Now, I am FINE with a young QB being marginal and stuggling as it is to be expected.

 

My REAL issue comes down to this...

 

He regressed even more when faced with pressure and adversity then became so gun shy that when we gave him tons of time to throw he still couldnt let the ball go, even when replays showed WR's open. The TRUE GREATS you listed above kept slinging the ball when they struggled...they kept pressing on and played through it. I did not see that from Trent.

 

So now we have a guy who has proven physically FRAGILE at every level of football he has played now showing he may potentially also have a FRAGILE mind set and ego. Thats not good when his biggest selling point was his alleged poise and confidence.

 

I want the kid to turn it around, but he has shown me something that really concerns me and something not a lot of players overcome...I hope hes the exception.

Well put my thoughts exactly

[Chief Loves Bills]

I have one more quick question in regards to Trent. How come no one wants to argue or acknoweldge that he comes recommended by Bill Walsh? Does anyone else on this team have that? And why can't we add that to Trent's resume when Bill Walsh is one of the greatest minds in football? We have to know he sees things a little bit different than us.

[Alphadawg7]

I have one more quick question in regards to Trent. How come no one wants to argue or acknoweldge that he comes recommended by Bill Walsh? Does anyone else on this team have that? And why can't we add that to Trent's resume when Bill Walsh is one of the greatest minds in football? We have to know he sees things a little bit different than us.

 

I grew up in Nor California where everyone is a Niner fan. Do you really want me to make you a list of all the draft picks Bill Walsh missed on? I love Walsh even though I hate the Niners, and I think he is one of the greatest football coaches and minds in history...

 

That being said, I can assure you there are plenty of players he was high on that didnt pan out...why you may ask...because player evaluation is not in any way easy or an exact science. People like Walsh show the ability to find great talent, but doesnt mean every guy they tab is gonna be great.

 

He was REALLY high on J.J. Stokes...do you remember him? Heck, you may not even know who he is becuase he was such a bust. Walsh said he saw a lot Jerry Rice in him and they traded up to get him to be the heir apparent tp Rice. He had the chance to play with supreme coaching and learn from what is considered the greatest WR of all time and yet the kid was a complete bust.

 

Even the great ones can be wrong...

[Poeticlaw]

This is my first post so please take it easy huh?!?!?

 

A lot of you may have already taken a look at these numbers but I think they are very telling. I grabbed a handful of stats from QBs that won many games, as well as championships, in their career and compared them to Trent. Basically I wanted to see if Trent could add up to some of the best in their first years. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Now, I know you could argue a great deal of issues: teams, coaches, surrounding receivers, years of play, as well as a host of others, but simply taking a look at the numbers you can see that not every good quaterback comes off the block running on all cylinders. Are Trent's numbers any better? Nope. Are they much worse. Nope. Do they kinda fall in line with the others even though some of these QBs had better staffs and more seasoned players? Sure.

 

The bottomline is this. Lets give Trent a chance. He is a smart kid, who got banged up in his first full year, under a losing coach, along with a first year offensive system.

 

And lest we forget...he comes recommended by one of the game's greatest: Bill Walsh.

 

 

 

 

Thoughts on the numbers?

 

His overall play doesnt concern me as much as his abilty to play in the NOV/DEC/Jan weather I am still waiting for him to prove me wrong but has yet to do so and the groing will be the excuse of why he falters in Denver.

 

i do think if hes given a very good te and another possession reciever he will be a good QB but in not sure I am willing to give him one more season unless we can upgrade with a seasoned VET

[canbuffan34]

I have one more quick question in regards to Trent. How come no one wants to argue or acknoweldge that he comes recommended by Bill Walsh? Does anyone else on this team have that? And why can't we add that to Trent's resume when Bill Walsh is one of the greatest minds in football? We have to know he sees things a little bit different than us.

You also have to take into account that where Trent is concerned, Walsh might be a bit of a Homer as he is a Stanford man.

[Tcali]

I grew up in Nor California where everyone is a Niner fan. Do you really want me to make you a list of all the draft picks Bill Walsh missed on? I love Walsh even though I hate the Niners, and I think he is one of the greatest football coaches and minds in history...

 

That being said, I can assure you there are plenty of players he was high on that didnt pan out...why you may ask...because player evaluation is not in any way easy or an exact science. People like Walsh show the ability to find great talent, but doesnt mean every guy they tab is gonna be great.

 

He was REALLY high on J.J. Stokes...do you remember him? Heck, you may not even know who he is becuase he was such a bust. Walsh said he saw a lot Jerry Rice in him and they traded up to get him to be the heir apparent tp Rice. He had the chance to play with supreme coaching and learn from what is considered the greatest WR of all time and yet the kid was a complete bust.

 

Even the great ones can be wrong...

yeah and who was that qb who he was so high on that turned out to be a bust?--i forget his name.

people gotta realize that walsh was never a GM personnel type guy. He was good at developing guys once he saw them play in the NFL for a while.