$20,000 for a private jet plane for one day?

[John from Riverside]

When a 1st class plane ticket costs $800?

 

I am not fully understanding all of this but on the outside looking in I dont want the workers to suffer (that poor schmoe like me who just trudges off to work every day to feed his family) and i also dont want to help these private jet flying execs who will still be rich no matter what.

 

I dont know what the solution is here.

[MattyT]

Wait till the airlines hit the govt up for a bailout. They've gotta be next, right?

 

Free money. Everybody get in line. No pushing.

[DC Tom]

Wait till the airlines hit the govt up for a bailout. They've gotta be next, right?

 

Free money. Everybody get in line. No pushing.

 

Airlines aren't doing that badly right now, actually.

 

Probably because they've already been bailed out (in 2002), and since reorganized.

[GG]

Airlines aren't doing that badly right now, actually.

 

Probably because they've already been bailed out (in 2002), and since reorganized.

 

Don't forget the role that bankruptcies played in those reorganizations. Amazing how passengers never gave a thought to flying on an airline that was bankrupt, unless the airline stopped flying.

[DC Tom]

Don't forget the role that bankruptcies played in those reorganizations. Amazing how passengers never gave a thought to flying on an airline that was bankrupt, unless the airline stopped flying.

 

I didn't forget (you knew that, of course).

 

But don't forget the role that the bailout played in getting the airlines over the post-9/11 hump and into a better economy where bankruptcy was a more realistic option.

[Johnny Coli]

Don't forget the role that bankruptcies played in those reorganizations. Amazing how passengers never gave a thought to flying on an airline that was bankrupt, unless the airline stopped flying.

Don't forget that an airline ticket didn't cost 20 grand and you didn't have to bring it in for an oil change every 5000 miles, or routine maintenance, or need to worry about getting parts for it, or reselling it.

[molson_golden2002]

Don't forget that an airline ticket didn't cost 20 grand and you didn't have to bring it in for an oil change every 5000 miles, or routine maintanence, or need to worry about getting parts for it, or reselling it.

That's the difference. Who the hell would buy a car from a company in banckruptcy???

[bills_fan]

Don't forget that an airline ticket didn't cost 20 grand and you didn't have to bring it in for an oil change every 5000 miles, or routine maintenance, or need to worry about getting parts for it, or reselling it.

 

 

Which is why the US Govt would have to provide debtor in possession financing for the bankruptcy to work at all.

[GG]

I didn't forget (you knew that, of course).

 

But don't forget the role that the bailout played in getting the airlines over the post-9/11 hump and into a better economy where bankruptcy was a more realistic option.

 

You could argue that it just speeded up the timing. Airline bankruptcies & consolidation was inevitable. 9/11 just speeded up the process, while the bailout was window dressing. Autos should take a lessoon - the bailout didn't help as much as bankriptcy to fix the industry for the future. Although a few more carriers could stand to consolidate.

[GG]

Don't forget that an airline ticket didn't cost 20 grand and you didn't have to bring it in for an oil change every 5000 miles, or routine maintenance, or need to worry about getting parts for it, or reselling it.

 

The aftermarket has proven to be very adept in meeting those needs, much in the same way you can get service & parts for virtually every car that has ever been produced. I don't recall this outcry when GM killed Oldsmobile or Chrysler did with Plymouth. Your fear would only be realized in a full liquidation. But the prospect of GM liquidating completely is as remote as the plagues descending before the San Diego game.

[pBills]

When a 1st class plane ticket costs $800?

 

I am not fully understanding all of this but on the outside looking in I dont want the workers to suffer (that poor schmoe like me who just trudges off to work every day to feed his family) and i also dont want to help these private jet flying execs who will still be rich no matter what.

 

I dont know what the solution is here.

 

 

 

Personally I could care less about the private jet ride into DC. $20,000 is nothing compared to what AIG wasted.

[GG]

Personally I could care less about the private jet ride into DC. $20,000 is nothing compared to what AIG wasted.

 

And which waste in particular are you referring to?

[pBills]

And which waste in particular are you referring to?

 

 

Their immediate retreat

[DC Tom]

Their immediate retreat

 

Which was probably already paid for in advance. I doubt they would have saved anything cancelling it.

[Johnny Coli]

The aftermarket has proven to be very adept in meeting those needs, much in the same way you can get service & parts for virtually every car that has ever been produced. I don't recall this outcry when GM killed Oldsmobile or Chrysler did with Plymouth. Your fear would only be realized in a full liquidation. But the prospect of GM liquidating completely is as remote as the plagues descending before the San Diego game.

Why even allow for the remote possibility if you could stave off both bankruptcy and possible liquidation with a loan? The money is already in the 700B package sent to the Treasury. Attach major restrictions as to how that money can be used. We're not talking about some textile company making placemats in Maine. Even the slimmest possiblity that one of the Big Three goes down in this economic environment would seem to me at least enough to take these measures. You seem to think the risk isn't there. I do.

[pBills]

Which was probably already paid for in advance. I doubt they would have saved anything cancelling it.

 

 

If it was bought and paid for in advance or even if they decided to do it after they received their initial bail out... either way it was a waste and should have opened some eyes. No way in justifying it.

[pBills]

Why even allow for the remote possibility if you could stave off both bankruptcy and possible liquidation with a loan? The money is already in the 700B package sent to the Treasury. Attach major restrictions as to how that money can be used. We're not talking about some textile company making placemats in Maine. Even the slimmest possiblity that one of the Big Three goes down in this economic environment would seem to me at least enough to take these measures. You seem to think the risk isn't there. I do.

 

 

 

The risk is huge. Even Toyota has come out and said that if the big 3 go down it will affect them as well. Suppliers will be hurt or go into bankruptcy, etc., etc. And that's on top of the millions out of work.

[GG]

Why even allow for the remote possibility if you could stave off both bankruptcy and possible liquidation with a loan? The money is already in the 700B package sent to the Treasury. Attach major restrictions as to how that money can be used. We're not talking about some textile company making placemats in Maine. Even the slimmest possiblity that one of the Big Three goes down in this economic environment would seem to me at least enough to take these measures. You seem to think the risk isn't there. I do.

 

I take it you haven't been reading the issues surrounding the Big 3. Their problem is not a liquidity crisis. Their problem is father time catching up to an antiquated business model, whose fix has been ignored by all parties for over a generation. A $25 bn cash infusion now will not solve the core issues of legacy costs, inflexible labor arrangements, too vast of a dealer network and the inability to bring quality products to the market faster than their competitors. A bankruptcy filing should help fix those, and you could use gov't money in bankruptcy, because you won't be able to get enough private capital for DIP financing.

 

But to throw $25 bn before restructuring is just widening the sinkhole.

[GG]

If it was bought and paid for in advance or even if they decided to do it after they received their initial bail out... either way it was a waste and should have opened some eyes. No way in justifying it.

 

Was this a retreat for AIG fat cats, or for independent agents who do business with AIG?

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

I did like the comment paraphrased here " So why didnt you bozzos at least downgrade to first class or jet pool to get here. You come begging for money and you fly down in your seperate corporate jets probably so ya can get back in time for lunch in the swank dining room"

 

I hear all these comments about how the car companies need to restructure and I am sure the executives are just thinking about how labor will have to give in on health insurance, wages and pensions.

 

If I was one of the congressman I would have said ok guys what did all your execs make last year in bonuses and options ( not salaries ). first give it all back to your companies than we can start talking.

[Joe Miner]

I take it you haven't been reading the issues surrounding the Big 3. Their problem is not a liquidity crisis. Their problem is father time catching up to an antiquated business model, whose fix has been ignored by all parties for over a generation. A $25 bn cash infusion now will not solve the core issues of legacy costs, inflexible labor arrangements, too vast of a dealer network and the inability to bring quality products to the market faster than their competitors. A bankruptcy filing should help fix those, and you could use gov't money in bankruptcy, because you won't be able to get enough private capital for DIP financing.

 

But to throw $25 bn before restructuring is just widening the sinkhole.

 

Ding Ding Ding

 

Tell him what's he's won.

[Rod Roddy]

 

Well, GG has just earned himself an all expenses paid 10 page thread trying to explain to people who refuse to listen that throwing money at people will not fix the automakers problem. He'll enojoy countless posts of finger pointing and straw men arguments by those who are unwilling to correctly place blame and realize that there are sometimes consequences that can't be avoided. He'll be wowed by the numerous posts declaring how evil and corrupt CEO's are and how the government has to do something to fix this, and doing something is always better than nothing even if the something is a worthless attempt that won't change anything.

 

Congratulations GG

 

Remember to spay and neuter your pets.

[Johnny Coli]

I take it you haven't been reading the issues surrounding the Big 3. Their problem is not a liquidity crisis. Their problem is father time catching up to an antiquated business model, whose fix has been ignored by all parties for over a generation. A $25 bn cash infusion now will not solve the core issues of legacy costs, inflexible labor arrangements, too vast of a dealer network and the inability to bring quality products to the market faster than their competitors. A bankruptcy filing should help fix those, and you could use gov't money in bankruptcy, because you won't be able to get enough private capital for DIP financing.

 

But to throw $25 bn before restructuring is just widening the sinkhole.

It's my understanding that Congress is asking them for a specific plan before even voting on loaning them the money. Yes, they have to change their business model and deal with the legacy benefits they've promised to the unions (a topic for another thread). But I don't see how letting them go into bankruptcy helps them right now. The $25B is a bridge loan to help them get through this crisis. The money is already there. We're throwing far more money to shore up Wall Street with zero oversight. And how is financing DIP any different than lending them money now with restrictions? The Fed is still going to pay for it, only they'd be one step closer to collapse. The only thing bankruptcy would do, IMO, is destroy the Union. The pessimist in me thinks that's really what certain people want to see happen.

[GG]

It's my understanding that Congress is asking them for a specific plan before even voting on loaning them the money. Yes, they have to change their business model and deal with the legacy benefits they've promised to the unions (a topic for another thread). But I don't see how letting them go into bankruptcy helps them right now. The $25B is a bridge loan to help them get through this crisis. The money is already there. We're throwing far more money to shore up Wall Street with zero oversight. And how is financing DIP any different than lending them money now with restrictions? The Fed is still going to pay for it, only they'd be one step closer to collapse. The only thing bankruptcy would do, IMO, is destroy the Union. The pessimist in me thinks that's really what certain people want to see happen.

 

The ultimate goal is the same, but under the bankruptcy code you are entitled to a bevvy of freedoms to restructure previous obligations, contracts, etc. You simply cannot (and WILL NOT) get the same benefit to restructure outside of bankruptcy, no matter what the "good" intentions of the parties are.

 

If you ask anyone remotely familiar with the bankruptcy process, the answer would be fairly unanimous on what the Big 3 should do. Especially with the government ready to provide DIP financing.

 

I imagine you really haven't cared that GM's largest supplier has been in bankruptcy for the last two years.

 

ps - "destroy the union" is an anachronysm. There's no union left to destroy. But you must be smoking some good stuff if you don't believe that past union mandates aren't helping sink the company. Again, the biggest problems that companies have with unions are not wages & benefits, but work rules and termination. Believe it or not, but management appreciates good workers and will pay them to keep them.

[Chef Jim]

Their immediate retreat

 

Which was by American General a subsidiary of AIG that's flush with cash and has ample reserves. I love how people who don't know this story like to use it.

[GG]

Which was by American General a subsidiary of AIG that's flush with cash and has ample reserves. I love how people who don't know this story like to use it.

 

Tsk, tsk, no helping the feeble.

[pBills]

Which was by American General a subsidiary of AIG that's flush with cash and has ample reserves. I love how people who don't know this story like to use it.

 

 

 

How about AIG the parent company is getting bailed out. Smart people wouldn't spend that kind of money when begging. And feeble love the idea... subsidiary or not.

[GG]

How about AIG the parent company is getting bailed out. Smart people wouldn't spend that kind of money when begging. And feeble love the idea... subsidiary or not.

 

Still haven't answered the question on what purpose the "retreat" served.

[pBills]

Still haven't answered the question on what purpose the "retreat" served.

 

I don't care what their purpose was... if it was business it could have been handled in a board room in a building they didn't have to expense out.

[GG]

I don't care what their purpose was... if it was business it could have been handled in a board room in a building they didn't have to expense out.

 

I see, you don't care what the purpose was, just hated the $400K that was "misused." Why bother finding out whether the retreat was for sales agents and the cancellation will probably result in $$ millions in lost of revenue for the company in 2009.

 

But, hey those evil crooks were taught a lesson.

 

Here's a novel thought, AIG should eliminate all costs in its business. That will surely help repay the money the government put in.

 

I was wrong in calling you feeble. It's an insult to feebleminded.

[Chef Jim]

How about AIG the parent company is getting bailed out. Smart people wouldn't spend that kind of money when begging. And feeble love the idea... subsidiary or not.

 

The subsidiary paid for it, not AIG.

[pBills]

I see, you don't care what the purpose was, just hated the $400K that was "misused." Why bother finding out whether the retreat was for sales agents and the cancellation will probably result in $$ millions in lost of revenue for the company in 2009.

 

But, hey those evil crooks were taught a lesson.

 

Here's a novel thought, AIG should eliminate all costs in its business. That will surely help repay the money the government put in.

 

I was wrong in calling you feeble. It's an insult to feebleminded.

 

 

You're damn right I hated that money was misused especially when the parent company AIG is asking for a bail out. And that is not a simple cost, the business that was done there could have been done in an office building. No need for the massages, etc.

[Boomer860]

That's the difference. Who the hell would buy a car from a company in banckruptcy???

Why not??

[Joe Miner]

You're damn right I hated that money was misused especially when the parent company AIG is asking for a bail out. And that is not a simple cost, the business that was done there could have been done in an office building. No need for the massages, etc.

 

If you don't know who used the money, for what, and what the consequences of spending it were, how can you possibly know it was "misused"?

[pBills]

And more from AIG... but it's ok to some.

 

 

As AIG execs are trying to recover from their spa scandal, news emerges that officials also spent possibly $500,000 on a golf retreat at the Mandalay Bay Resort in Las Vegas.

[GG]

You're damn right I hated that money was misused especially when the parent company AIG is asking for a bail out. And that is not a simple cost, the business that was done there could have been done in an office building. No need for the massages, etc.

 

The feebleminded are getting more empowered by your acumen.

 

This is how business is done with bulk scale property & casualty brokers, you buffoon. The perks were not for AIG employees but for their sales agents. If you don't treat them well, they will be perfectly happy to work with Swiss RE or Munich RE. Aren't you among the retardia that screams about US job protections? Notice something about the names of the competitors?

 

The money is out the door and it would be nice if the government got it back some day. But if you want AIG to even get a chance to repay the money, you have to let them operate the business in a market where their competitors will attack their weakness. I can guarantee 100% that cutting commissions and perks to their top producing sales agents will certainly not give you the money back.

 

But idiots like you think you won something because they just saved $400K.

[pBills]

The feebleminded are getting more empowered by your acumen.

 

This is how business is done with bulk scale property & casualty brokers, you buffoon. The perks were not for AIG employees but for their sales agents. If you don't treat them well, they will be perfectly happy to work with Swiss RE or Munich RE. Aren't you among the retardia that screams about US job protections? Notice something about the names of the competitors?

 

The money is out the door and it would be nice if the government got it back some day. But if you want AIG to even get a chance to repay the money, you have to let them operate the business in a market where their competitors will attack their weakness. I can guarantee 100% that cutting commissions and perks to their top producing sales agents will certainly not give you the money back.

 

But idiots like you think you won something because they just saved $400K.

 

 

 

Dude you act as though what you say is the be all end all. It's not. Get over yourself. And I worked for a company that was in that business. The retreats they had NEVER EVER came even close to that price. Not even close. And when business is failing, change the way you do business. Don't go to the spa or golfing. Work in a board room.

 

It's not about saving $400k. It's about dumb business practice that people like you like to excuse.

[GG]

Dude you act as though what you say is the be all end all. It's not. Get over yourself. And I worked for a company that was in that business. The retreats they had NEVER EVER came even close to that price. Not even close. And when business is failing, change the way you do business. Don't go to the spa or golfing. Work in a board room.

 

It's not about saving $400k. It's about dumb business practice that people like you like to excuse.

 

This could be conjecture, but I highly doubt you were anywhere near the stratosphere of a top producing agent. So please spare me the sanctimony of what they should expect. If anything, AIG will probably have to pay higher commissions and add more perks because they are in trouble. How many times does it have to be explained to you that the expense was not for AIG's benefit, but for their agents who are very likely to work with a competitor?

 

Boy, I am so looking forward to the pervasive mentality that cost control is better than revenue generation in private enterprise.

[GG]

It's my understanding that Congress is asking them for a specific plan before even voting on loaning them the money. Yes, they have to change their business model and deal with the legacy benefits they've promised to the unions (a topic for another thread). But I don't see how letting them go into bankruptcy helps them right now. The $25B is a bridge loan to help them get through this crisis. The money is already there. We're throwing far more money to shore up Wall Street with zero oversight. And how is financing DIP any different than lending them money now with restrictions? The Fed is still going to pay for it, only they'd be one step closer to collapse. The only thing bankruptcy would do, IMO, is destroy the Union. The pessimist in me thinks that's really what certain people want to see happen.

 

Surely this right wing rag can't be all wrong?

[KD in CA]

I imagine you really haven't cared that GM's largest supplier has been in bankruptcy for the last two years.

 

but...but...but....what Company would buy parts from a bankrupt supplier??

[SDS]

Surely this right wing rag can't be all wrong?

 

Part of the problem is summed up by comments like this one in The Detroit Free Press, made by Kandy O’Neill, 39, an assembler at G.M.’s plant in Lake Orion, Mich., where she builds the Chevy Malibu and Pontiac G6. “I think we’ve given enough,” she said about the cuts to her salary and pension plan.

 

“Everybody wants to come down hard on the workers,” she said. “Nobody knows what we do inside there but the people who work there. It’s hard. It is not an easy job.”

 

When you read a line like that you might sympathize with her, but then you realize that nothing can be accomplished without bankruptcy. Ms. O’Neill: your company is asking the taxpayers — many of whom don’t have health care coverage — to pay your salary and health insurance.

 

There's the money quote...