Big Turk Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 After looking at various things, I am beginning to believe our blocking scheme is the root of our problems in the run game. When Derrick Dockery was with the Redskins, he was considered a road grader, and runs behind his side of the football were in the top 5 in the NFL for average gain. Oakland had a pretty decent running game when running the ball behind Langston Walker. Minnesota even could run the ball effectively with Fowler as the center. So to me, the problem must be our scheme. Dockery does not go from one of the best run blocking guards in the NFL to a guy who can't block overnight. Fowler while not the greatest center in the world, isn't horrible either, although he gets shoved into the backfield a little too much for my liking. What do you think the problem is? I can't imagine players who were successful at run blocking on other teams, including a guy who was one of the best at it in Dockery, can all of a sudden not know how to run block anymore... It appears the guys are tentative when blocking and are waiting for the DLinemen to come to them rather than trying to force the issue and blow them off the ball... Anyone else have any comments on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We use a zone blocking scheme... so yeah... its the scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGimp Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 If it's so obvious to everybody, why do they not change it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We do not use a zone blocking scheme for the last GD time people. The problem is a center with no explosive power and a RG who is built like a overweight power forward in basketball. Now, EVERY team uses a few zone blocking concepts, the Bills included, but only for certain plays. Denver and now Atlanta are the two teams who use the scheme just about all the time. Watch those two teams and you'll see a true zone blocking team. Of couse, a legit TE would keep an extra defender out of the box too........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsjunkie Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We do not use a zone blocking scheme for the last GD time people. The problem is a center with no explosive power and a RG who is built like a overweight power forward in basketball. Now, EVERY team uses a few zone blocking concepts, the Bills included, but only for certain plays. Denver and now Atlanta are the two teams who use the scheme just about all the time. Watch those two teams and you'll see a true zone blocking team. Of couse, a legit TE would keep an extra defender out of the box too........ According to Bills HOF Joe D we most certainly do use a zone run blocking scheme and it's his opinon that its a huge problem with our running game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 After looking at various things, I am beginning to believe our blocking scheme is the root of our problems in the run game. When Derrick Dockery was with the Redskins, he was considered a road grader, and runs behind his side of the football were in the top 5 in the NFL for average gain. Oakland had a pretty decent running game when running the ball behind Langston Walker. Minnesota even could run the ball effectively with Fowler as the center. So to me, the problem must be our scheme. Dockery does not go from one of the best run blocking guards in the NFL to a guy who can't block overnight. Fowler while not the greatest center in the world, isn't horrible either, although he gets shoved into the backfield a little too much for my liking. What do you think the problem is? I can't imagine players who were successful at run blocking on other teams, including a guy who was one of the best at it in Dockery, can all of a sudden not know how to run block anymore... It appears the guys are tentative when blocking and are waiting for the DLinemen to come to them rather than trying to force the issue and blow them off the ball... Anyone else have any comments on this? Folwer wasnt the center, Matt Birk was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Of the top 32 running backs (by total yardage), only one has fewer yards per carry than Marshawn. Marshawn has 3.5 yards per carry. I do not know if this is because of Marshawn, the line, or a combination of the two. Marshawn runs hard and is great at getting that yard or two for the first down or TD. It would be nice to see his rushing average increase. FWIW, Fred Jackson has 4.5 yards per carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I honestly don't know enough specifics about run blocking schemes to say for certain. But I do know coaching in sports, and how to get matchups to work my way. What I don't understand is: If your guy has an extra 50-80 pounds on the guy across from him, and equal if not better feet, I have no idea why you would have your kid come off the line and run sideways, trying to use body position to get an advantage on a different guy. It seems to me that you do that only if your guys are equal or smaller than the other guys and you're just trying to get one hole at one spot. Running sideways/diagonal gives up all of your advantage/leverage and it simply comes down to who can get to what spot first. I don't get why we don't have our guys push straight ahead, right at their man, especially the opponents DEs. The best example of that was the Lynch TD vs. the Raiders on the goal line. Lynch barely had to do anything, because the entire Raider team was already in the endzone when he was handed the ball. It looks like he expected to have to juke and ended up falling forward because there was nobody in front of him to run into. It looked like he didn't expect that at all and fell right on his face . I mean I'm sure he didn't care as long as he gets his TD, but that play looked ridiculous. If our guys can blow up an entire line like that -- and don't kid yourself, the Raiders D line is pretty good -- I have no idea why we don't do it all the time. The sheer chaos it would create, never mind giving Lynch a 3 yard head start, seems to be worth doing it more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Haven’t the Broncos been using a Zone blocking scheme for the past 15 years. Zone blocking is not the problem. The Bills use a form of the running system that Studsville/McNally used (successfully) with the Giants. All of the current o-linemen were brought in under McNally; you would think that they were suited for his system. I am hoping that some minor bye week adjustments fix the run blocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I know people will say how can Hall of Famer Joe D be wrong well he is. McNally has never employed a zone scheme and neither has Kugler at Bosie St. and now with the Bills. Assistant Ray Brown had never been part of a zone scheme either. Sorry, Joe D is wrong with the zone scheme. The Bills simply try to get too fancy instead of just being more physical, but in all fairness, the center and RG aren't suited for a straight ahead physical scheme either. It's pretty f***ed up right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsjunkie Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I know people will say how can Hall of Famer Joe D be wrong well he is. McNally has never employed a zone scheme and neither has Kugler at Bosie St. and now with the Bills. Assistant Ray Brown had never been part of a zone scheme either. Sorry, Joe D is wrong with the zone scheme. The Bills simply try to get too fancy instead of just being more physical, but in all fairness, the center and RG aren't suited for a straight ahead physical scheme either. It's pretty f***ed up right now. No offense but I will trust Joe D. over a poster on a internet message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 That's fine but it doesn't change the fact that the Bills don't run a zone blocking scheme. Now, Joe D may feel the Bills run too many plays that resemble the zone block scheme but they don't run the Denver system whether Joe D thinks they do or not. No offense taken, no big deal. Like I said though, it doesn't really matter because the personel on the line prevents the line from being great at smash mouth or zone. It's FUBAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playman Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I honestly don't know enough specifics about run blocking schemes to say for certain. But I do know coaching in sports, and how to get matchups to work my way. What I don't understand is: If your guy has an extra 50-80 pounds on the guy across from him, and equal if not better feet, I have no idea why you would have your kid come off the line and run sideways, trying to use body position to get an advantage on a different guy. It seems to me that you do that only if your guys are equal or smaller than the other guys and you're just trying to get one hole at one spot. Running sideways/diagonal gives up all of your advantage/leverage and it simply comes down to who can get to what spot first. I don't get why we don't have our guys push straight ahead, right at their man, especially the opponents DEs. The best example of that was the Lynch TD vs. the Raiders on the goal line. Lynch barely had to do anything, because the entire Raider team was already in the endzone when he was handed the ball. It looks like he expected to have to juke and ended up falling forward because there was nobody in front of him to run into. It looked like he didn't expect that at all and fell right on his face . I mean I'm sure he didn't care as long as he gets his TD, but that play looked ridiculous. If our guys can blow up an entire line like that -- and don't kid yourself, the Raiders D line is pretty good -- I have no idea why we don't do it all the time. The sheer chaos it would create, never mind giving Lynch a 3 yard head start, seems to be worth doing it more often. exactly the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Of the top 32 running backs (by total yardage), only one has fewer yards per carry than Marshawn. Marshawn has 3.5 yards per carry. I do not know if this is because of Marshawn, the line, or a combination of the two. Marshawn runs hard and is great at getting that yard or two for the first down or TD. It would be nice to see his rushing average increase. FWIW, Fred Jackson has 4.5 yards per carry. Freddy is just a bit quicker to the line than Marshawn (IMO). He is also a 'squirter', able to accelerate through a small hole and pop out the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Scheme. Run blocking was better last year. Lynch's yards per carry is bad because when he gets the ball at least 2 out of 3 times, he has nowhere to go. He runs into a huge pile of bodies at the LOS and can maybe bull for a yard or two. Then every so often he does get a good hole and he rips off a nice run. I don't know enough about OLine blocking schemes to say what the problem is. But it's definitely the blocking. I too will take a HOF OL guy's word over an internet chat poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We can use just about any scheme we want, but there simply isn't enough respect out there for our passing game to get defenses out of the box. Watch a game and see how stacked the box is, other teams run blitz and that is often as effective as a good pass rush even if Trent changes the play up. You will notice that when we are in the no-huddle and 2 and 4 minute drills where we are throwing the quick passes on quick drops that we are very successful ripping off big runs. There is the fact that the other team cannot substitute players, but also the fact that they no longer load the box against the run. If we change the tempo sooner in games with a short passing attack, and if Fowler grows a pair our running game will improve like magic. I also think that teams can get too cute with their blocking - just pushing that guy in front of you on his butt is unusually simple and effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofton80 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I think the zone blocking strategy is for the running back to hit whatever crease exists and Fred Jackson is good at changing directions and going forward at the same time. He slides over to wherever the crease is. It appears to me the Marshawn is a plow ahead/ physical runner that might be better served by a drive blocking scheme. I also think Fowler gets blown up in the middle of the line which limits our between the tackles running. Not sure Butler has the feet for a zone blocking scheme either. After watching the SD nose tackle manhandle NE's center last week, I cannot see Fowler being too successful. He does make good line calls though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets_go_bills Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 When you have the heaviest line in the biz, there's no excuse to be five games in and not have a 100 yard rusher yet. All I hear is how those guys love to block for Lynch. O-Lineman are supposed to love run block, because all they have to do is be road-grading beasts. Juts drive block and push. I think they'll get it together soon. The whole Peters thing hurt us, but they'll get in sync soon I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Folwer wasnt the center, Matt Birk was. No, Birk wasn't the center. He missed the entire 2005 season and Fowler started the last 9 games, during which Minny was one of the hottest teams in the NFL. Thus, when the Bills signed Fowler, they had their starting center and tried to fill another need in the draft, DT. So in short, Matt Birk is the one to blame for the Bills drafting McCargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2003Contenders Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 One thing that I have found encouraging is that -- Arizona game aside -- they have shown a tendency to get better as the game moves forward. Part of that, I believe, is a product of the big men wearing down the defense over the course of the game. Peters has now played in 4 games. That is his preseason. He's had the extra week to help with the cohesion factor. Lets hope he looks like the LT he thinks he is beginning this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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