In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Putin was just waiting for an excuse The events of the past week will be remembered that way, too. This war did not begin because of a miscalculation by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. It is a war that Moscow has been attempting to provoke for some time. The man who once called the collapse of the Soviet Union "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the [20th] century" has reestablished a virtual czarist rule in Russia and is trying to restore the country to its once-dominant role in Eurasia and the world. Armed with wealth from oil and gas; holding a near-monopoly over the energy supply to Europe; with a million soldiers, thousands of nuclear warheads and the world's third-largest military budget, Vladimir Putin believes that now is the time to make his move. scary stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 scary stuff The Georgian withdrawl and pleas for a cease-fire have gone unanswered. Russian ground forces have now moved beyond South Ossetia and are assualting Gori in central Georgia. It's 3AM, President Obama, what's your response? Oh, I remember - he's a citizen of the world who doesn't assign blame: "Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war." European-style responses will only lead to disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Look what Putin was saying just a couple days before invading Georgia... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/5923154.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 The Georgian withdrawl and pleas for a cease-fire have gone unanswered. Russian ground forces have now moved beyond South Ossetia and are assualting Gori in central Georgia. It's 3AM, President Obama, what's your response? Oh, I remember - he's a citizen of the world who doesn't assign blame: "Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war." European-style responses will only lead to disaster. The smart response is not to lose your cool like McCain as a first response. The tough talk should be done behind the scenes so as not to publicly embarrass Russia and make them more resistant to a pull back because it will look like they backed down to the U.S.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 The thing I'm wondering about is the Chinese take on this. Most analysis I've read in recent months has them butting heads at some point in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 The smart response is not to lose your cool like McCain as a first response. The tough talk should be done behind the scenes so as not to publicly embarrass Russia and make them more resistant to a pull back because it will look like they backed down to the U.S.. Ah...so you support the policy the Bush Administration is following? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Putin was just waiting for an excuse scary stuff I may be in a minority here but I don't see anything much wrong in how Putin responded. Georgia sent troops to S Ossettia and hence fired the first salvo. I don't think it is relevant that Russia was 'waiting for a chance'. Georgia made the first move and Russia responded. This is not as bad as a pre-emptive war. Even the 'looking for an opportunity' reason is justified. Super-powers such as the US and Russia will exert force to exhibit their dominance of a region. Responding with such strong and sustained force literally tells its neighbors 'don't !@#$ with us'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 The smart response is not to lose your cool like McCain as a first response. The tough talk should be done behind the scenes so as not to publicly embarrass Russia and make them more resistant to a pull back because it will look like they backed down to the U.S.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ieatcrayonz Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 The smart response is not to lose your cool like McCain as a first response. The tough talk should be done behind the scenes so as not to publicly embarrass Russia and make them more resistant to a pull back because it will look like they backed down to the U.S.. Be sure to wash their buttocks when you're done kissing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Ah...so you support the policy the Bush Administration is following? If that's what they're doing, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 The smart response is not to lose your cool like McCain as a first response. The tough talk should be done behind the scenes so as not to publicly embarrass Russia and make them more resistant to a pull back because it will look like they backed down to the U.S.. Up to a limit, yes. But it is a dangerous slope. How many years do you turn a blind eye publically and 'work behind the scenes' privately before you realize that it is just appeasement? Do you let them reoccupy Georgia without calling them out? The other central asian states? The Baltic states? Ukraine? What about when Russian gas deliveries to western europe are mysteriously disrupted at politically convenient times? You misrepresent McCain's position. This is not his first introduction to the Russia issue, unlike Obama who has been googling his way to a position. McCain has (right or wrong) been hawkish with respect to Putin for a decade now. He took heat from the Republicans for his ridiculing of Bush's 'I looked into his soul and saw a kindred spirit' stuff. He has taken flack recently from the Democrats for saying that Russia has no business attending and influencing the G-8 meetings, and should no longer be invited. The left argues that it is important that Russia (but apparently not India or China) be engaged to reward positive behavior. I'm still waiting for the results... If he responded bluntly to this latest event, it is because he has been raising the same alarm for over a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 I may be in a minority here but I don't see anything much wrong in how Putin responded. Georgia sent troops to S Ossettia and hence fired the first salvo. I don't think it is relevant that Russia was 'waiting for a chance'. Georgia made the first move and Russia responded. This is not as bad as a pre-emptive war. Even the 'looking for an opportunity' reason is justified. Super-powers such as the US and Russia will exert force to exhibit their dominance of a region. Responding with such strong and sustained force literally tells its neighbors 'don't !@#$ with us'. You are no doubt aware that South Ossetia is part of Georgia, and that there were already troops there, right? And that despite a Georgian cease-fire, their troops were being attacked by Russian-backed insurgents? And that the Russian 'peace-keepers' were either doing nothing or actively supporting the insurgents? What should the Georgian's have done? Let the attacks continue unanswered? If you've been following the news these past few year, you are aware that Russia reacted poorly to the Rose revolution and the possibility of Georgia joining NATO; fuel deliveries from Russia to Georgia have been 'disrupted' over the winters; several Russian military personnel in Georgia proper were arrested on spying charges; Russia responded with a complete economic embargo; cyber attacks have ben shutting down Georgian government services; and that Russian planes have been buzzing Georgian airspace all year. Yeah, Georgia fired the first salvo. I think it is no coincidence that by agreement the last of the Russian bases in Georgia were supposed to have been vacated in 2008. It sure is suspicious timing that Georgia has embarked - according to Putin - on a campaign of genocide against Russians right now. I don't think we'll see the Russian troops withdraw for a long, long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 A different viewpoint from the CSM: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0811/p09s03-coop.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 A different viewpoint from the CSM: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0811/p09s03-coop.html One that I do not share. Russia is CLEARLY the aggressor in this situation. This, combined with brutality in Chechnya and unwavering backing of Iran show what Russia's true intentions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Ah...so you support the policy the Bush Administration is following? Didn't George have some line about seeing into Putin's soul or some stojan like that. I know, I could Google it. Goes to show how those off-the-cuff things can come back to bite you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Didn't George have some line about seeing into Putin's soul or some stojan like that. I know, I could Google it. Goes to show how those off-the-cuff things can come back to bite you. Yeah, he played Bush big-time. Even went to church with him, lol. I don't know which prospect will be worse the first time Obama meets Putin. Getting his pockets picked (ala Bush), or the dangerous miscaculation that will result if Obama gets it into his head to try to play it tough (ala Kennedy after his Kruschev meetings). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 A different viewpoint from the CSM: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0811/p09s03-coop.html another interesting perspective, but not sure I get this part... Regardless of the conflict's origins, the West must continue to act diplomatically to push Georgia and Russia back to the pre-attacks status quo. The United States should make it clear that Saakashvili has seriously miscalculated the meaning of his partnership with Washington, and that Georgia and Russia must step back before they do irreparable damage to their relations with the US, NATO, and the European Union. like he thought we were gonna back him up with troops or something? Bush has shown strong public support for the Georgian government, but who knows what discussions took place behind closed doors, especially regarding their strategy to send troops to South Ossetia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 It's 3AM, President Obama, what's your response? Oh, I remember - he's a citizen of the world who doesn't assign blame: "Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war." European-style responses will only lead to disaster. What the hell does this have to do with Obama? Maybe you should ask what is our president doing, besides having some assistant sec'y of state issue statements that Russia ought to comply with a cease fire or saying stuff like "this might have significant impact on long-term US and Russian relations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 Didn't George have some line about seeing into Putin's soul or some stojan like that. I know, I could Google it. Goes to show how those off-the-cuff things can come back to bite you. he said: "I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue. "I was able to get a sense of his soul. "He's a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country and I appreciate very much the frank dialogue and that's the beginning of a very constructive relationship," Mr Bush said. Putin played him so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 What the hell does this have to do with Obama? Maybe you should ask what is our president doing, besides having some assistant sec'y of state issue statements that Russia ought to comply with a cease fire or saying stuff like "this might have significant impact on long-term US and Russian relations? It has everything to do with the prevailing philosophy of the left, espoused by Obama and likely to be emphasized by him when he assumes the presidency. There are no bad guys in the world (except ourselves) and that countries will behave reasonably if only would you talk to them. It is a philosophy which has been applied to Putin's Russia for over a decade now, and pandering has only emboldened the slide into authoritarianism. Putin has been running circles around the Europeans and the UN... don't you find it a little suspicious that Germany's Prime Minister Gerhard Schroder - the fierce critic of the US - coincidentally pushed Russian energy interests onto Europe while in office and went to work for Gazprom when he left? The world is a lot more aggressive, confrontational, and unresponsive to lofty idealism than the left believes. As for Bush, so what? He's painted himself into this corner and it's too late for him to do anything about the relationship now. It's ancient history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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