Excellent analysis of Putin's moves in Georgia

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

Enemies? Other that cafe drinking set, please list the new enemies that the Bush-led US has created?

 

Why does the "civilized" world still need the US to take the first step in anything?

enemies was a poor choice of words.

 

but our traditional allies like the EU have tanked in their support, and otherwise positive image of the USA since Iraq; some might argue before that as well. It's a little better than it was a couple years ago, but still very negative. I'm guessing, but based on the recent Obama trip, they seem perceive him as a positive change from the current administration and thereby a more moderate approach.

[chicot]

You may be right. The Caucasians deserve to go through the same type of European border settling practice that the Balkans' have experienced. That's why Dimitri's boys are there to help.

 

You are of course, the more enlightened lot than the ugly stupid fat Americans.

 

Thank you, we are

 

Do you believe that the South Ossetians should be part of Georgia whether they like it or not?

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

I see. They wait till after their elections are over to get worked up about US politics.

 

Make up your mind.

huh?

 

I listed a bunch of pretty sizable issues that we disagree on from a foreign relations standpoint. Germans will likely vote in support of climate change (regardless of whether the US is on board or not) and domestic issues of importance to them, not whether their candidate appears to be more friendly with the USA. It's the issues that count.

[jjamie12]

... whether their candidate appears to be more friendly with the USA. It's the issues that count.

THAT IS A MOTHERF*&^ING ISSUE!!!!!!!

 

Why can't you see that?

[GG]

enemies was a poor choice of words.

 

but our traditional allies like the EU have tanked in their support, and otherwise positive image of the USA since Iraq; some might argue before that as well. It's a little better than it was a couple years ago, but still very negative. I'm guessing, but based on the recent Obama trip, they seem perceive him as a positive change from the current administration and thereby a more moderate approach.

 

What positive image is that? The one where the world cried at the sight of the towers falling down and then showing support by sending their troops into Afghanistan without bullets? Or do you just need reassurance when people say nice things about America and that's all that matters?

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

another interesting perspective, but not sure I get this part...

 

 

 

like he thought we were gonna back him up with troops or something? Bush has shown strong public support for the Georgian government, but who knows what discussions took place behind closed doors, especially regarding their strategy to send troops to South Ossetia.

wow, here's my answer from Gorby himself

Mounting a military assault against innocents was a reckless decision whose tragic consequences, for thousands of people of different nationalities, are now clear. The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of U.S. instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of NATO membership, emboldened Georgian leaders into thinking that they could get away with a "blitzkrieg" in South Ossetia.

[GG]

Thank you, we are

 

Do you believe that the South Ossetians should be part of Georgia whether they like it or not?

 

Self-determinantion of former tribes is obviously not confined to the Black Sea shores. I believe that the UN has a policy for that. Of course since S Ossetians & Abhazians want to shortcut the process, they can get the eager Mother Russia to help out. Russians have a long standing record of helping people achieve self-determination. They should be applauded for standing up the Georgian aggressors.

 

(And don't for a minute think that this has anything to do with a pipeline deal Georgia cut with Turkey & Kazhakhstan to deliver oil & gas to Europe.)

[chicot]

Self-determinantion of former tribes is obviously not confined to the Black Sea shores. I believe that the UN has a policy for that. Of course since S Ossetians & Abhazians want to shortcut the process, they can get the eager Mother Russia to help out. Russians have a long standing record of helping people achieve self-determination. They should be applauded for standing up the Georgian aggressors.

 

(And don't for a minute think that this has anything to do with a pipeline deal Georgia cut with Turkey & Kazhakhstan to deliver oil & gas to Europe.)

 

I'm sure it has plenty to do with the pipeline. None of which changes the fact that it was stupid of Georgia to think they could attack South Ossetia without this sort of response from Russia. Did they think that Putin was so busy watching the Olympics that he wouldn't notice?

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

What positive image is that? The one where the world cried at the sight of the towers falling down and then showing support by sending their troops into Afghanistan without bullets? Or do you just need reassurance when people say nice things about America and that's all that matters?

let's see...

 

9/11 - condemnation of the attack, strong support and public opinion from outside the US

 

Afghanistan - some support waned, but overall probably maintained justification of our attack, and thereby public opinion as well

 

Iraq - outside of the UK, almost no support, and strong condemnation against the US, public opinion in the toilet

 

~2006 - some changes and softening of anger towards the USA

 

2008 - Bush is a lame duck, and they believe Obama will act more in line with where they think the US's role should be in world affairs, and opinion is poised to improve considerably.

 

once again, IMO and I have no clue what will happen if McCain wins.

[stuckincincy]

Self-determinantion of former tribes is obviously not confined to the Black Sea shores. I believe that the UN has a policy for that. Of course since S Ossetians & Abhazians want to shortcut the process, they can get the eager Mother Russia to help out. Russians have a long standing record of helping people achieve self-determination. They should be applauded for standing up the Georgian aggressors.

 

(And don't for a minute think that this has anything to do with a pipeline deal Georgia cut with Turkey & Kazhakhstan to deliver oil & gas to Europe.)

I have photographs of the Wall - not the Berlin Wall - the one that ran the length of the Germanys. And South.

 

The No Man's land - salted, walled with stone and wire...towers, searchlights, manned machine guns.

 

If there is a bunch that will end human life on this planet, it will be the Russians.

[GG]

let's see...

 

9/11 - condemnation of the attack, strong support and public opinion from outside the US

 

Afghanistan - some support waned, but overall probably maintained justification of our attack, and thereby public opinion as well

 

Iraq - outside of the UK, almost no support, and strong condemnation against the US, public opinion in the toilet

 

~2006 - some changes and softening of anger towards the USA

 

2008 - Bush is a lame duck, and they believe Obama will act more in line with where they think the US's role should be in world affairs, and opinion is poised to improve considerably.

 

once again, IMO and I have no clue what will happen if McCain wins.

 

Would you like to back your opinion with hard data showing the support/lack of support from the official governments?

[GG]

I'm sure it has plenty to do with the pipeline. None of which changes the fact that it was stupid of Georgia to think they could attack South Ossetia without this sort of response from Russia. Did they think that Putin was so busy watching the Olympics that he wouldn't notice?

 

Attack is a strong word, since S Ossetia is recognized to be part of Georgia. What's Dimitri's justification for entering Gori?

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

Would you like to back your opinion with hard data showing the support/lack of support from the official governments?

you're kidding, right?

 

support or lack thereof is not a gray area. the US was almost universally panned worldwide. I cannot understand why you're even questioning this

[chicot]

Attack is a strong word, since S Ossetia is recognized to be part of Georgia. What's Dimitri's justification for entering Gori?

 

So, by that logic, Saddam could do what he likes to the Kurds since the Kurdish region of Iraq was recognised to be part of Iraq?

 

The Russian justification for attacks beyond South Ossetia and Abkhazia is that the areas were being used as staging posts to attack these regions. Incidentally, even the Georgians are now admitting that the Russians have not entered Gori:

 

"Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori."

 

BBC report

[GG]

So, by that logic, Saddam could do what he likes to the Kurds since the Kurdish region of Iraq was recognised to be part of Iraq?

 

The Russian justification for attacks beyond South Ossetia and Abkhazia is that the areas were being used as staging posts to attack these regions. Incidentally, even the Georgians are now admitting that the Russians have not entered Gori:

 

"Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori."

 

BBC report

 

Saddam did do whatever he wanted to the Kurds, while the civilized world watched. Millions have died in Africa, and the civilized folk washed their hands after the candlelight vigils. Russia is now avenging its embarrassment by the west because the civilized could no longer stand the butchering in the Balkans by the well meaning slavs & their tribemates.

 

Good to see you being consistent in standing up for the rights of the world's tyrants.

 

PS - you may want to send a note to BBC to check their sources. Russians were inside Georgia when I posted last.

[OCinBuffalo]

The smart response is not to lose your cool like McCain as a first response. The tough talk should be done behind the scenes so as not to publicly embarrass Russia and make them more resistant to a pull back because it will look like they backed down to the U.S..

Ha! Ok Neville. The smart response would have been to declare war on Germany in 1936, 1937, 1938, or 1939 BEFORE they had time to build up militarily. Take your pick. This is undeniable. Hell, the smart response was what Reagan/Charlie Wilson/and the CIA did: get them weapons(of course the dumb part was not finishing the job, but we did accomplish the original mission). The smart response was what FDR did: get them weapons.

 

Notice how I used a:

1. Dumb liberal

2. Smart team of people including liberals

3. Smart liberal

 

Smart isn't about whose party you like, smart is simply smart, and dumb is dumb. And trying to "talk smart" while acting dumb will get you burned every time. It appears you want to protect your ideology instead of dealing with the reality of the events as necessary. That is dumb. Smart in this case = ask Europe if they want to quit being pussies for once and actually do something because this time....it's directly effects them. Perhaps they are just smart enough to actually react properly this time, BEFORE things get out of hand. But I doubt it. Instead they are probably dumb enough to try and save their "anit-war" face.

 

I doubt it because they, like you, won't be smart enough to realize that the "peace first" agenda/ideology is being laughed at by Putin, just as it was laughed at by Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini, until it's too late. They, like you, will probably repeat history and make every effort to keep their precious ideology intact far past when it is prudent, thereby giving their new enemy time to prepare. Ironically, now Germany is the least likely to do anything although they are the closest to the issue and unquestionably have the best tanks on the continent.

 

Objectively: I honestly see this as the worst possible development that could have happened for Obama because it takes the focus away from the economy(not that he was making a good case anyway) and places it firmly on national security. Given Obama's waffling so far on these issues, don't bother, this is undeniable also, he really has to show us something that resembles real leadership, not pandering, placating, or worst of all: appeasement. It's going to be very hard for him to maintain his "warbad or Bush invented war" views when clearly we need to assist our allies on a war footing. Meanwhile, McCain and the Republicans are going to wail on him if he even slightly looks like a candy-ass. It's going to be difficult, but I would love to see him react properly and realize that choosing the "wrong that's more right" is often times what being a leader is all about. I would love to see him live up to the hype and actually act like JFK for once, instead of pretending to be him.

 

I find this devilishly ironic as well: Does anybody want to lay odds on Europe, who once again wouldn't help us, now coming to us and asking for help? Of course we will help them, because how can we not? We know the meaning of friendship and we won't ever be a fair weather friend, unlike them.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

Ha! Ok Neville. The smart response would have been to declare war on Germany in 1936, 1937, 1938, or 1939 BEFORE they had time to build up militarily. Take your pick. This is undeniable. Hell, the smart response was what Reagan/Charlie Wilson/and the CIA did: get them weapons(of course the dumb part was not finishing the job, but we did accomplish the original mission). The smart response was what FDR did: get them weapons.

 

Notice how I used a:

1. Dumb liberal

2. Smart team of people including liberals

3. Smart liberal

 

Smart isn't about whose party you like, smart is simply smart, and dumb is dumb. And trying to "talk smart" while acting dumb will get you burned every time. It appears you want to protect your ideology instead of dealing with the reality of the events as necessary. That is dumb. Smart in this case = ask Europe if they want to quit being pussies for once and actually do something because this time....it's directly effects them. Perhaps they are just smart enough to actually react properly this time, BEFORE things get out of hand. But I doubt it. Instead they are probably dumb enough to try and save their "anit-war" face.

 

I doubt it because they, like you, won't be smart enough to realize that the "peace first" agenda/ideology is being laughed at by Putin, just as it was laughed at by Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini, until it's too late. They, like you, will probably repeat history and make every effort to keep their precious ideology intact far past when it is prudent, thereby giving their new enemy time to prepare. Ironically, now Germany is the least likely to do anything although they are the closest to the issue and unquestionably have the best tanks on the continent.

 

Objectively: I honestly see this as the worst possible development that could have happened for Obama because it takes the focus away from the economy(not that he was making a good case anyway) and places it firmly on national security. Given Obama's waffling so far on these issues, don't bother, this is undeniable also, he really has to show us something that resembles real leadership, not pandering, placating, or worst of all: appeasement. It's going to be very hard for him to maintain his "warbad or Bush invented war" views when clearly we need to assist our allies on a war footing. Meanwhile, McCain and the Republicans are going to wail on him if he even slightly looks like a candy-ass. It's going to be difficult, but I would love to see him react properly and realize that choosing the "wrong that's more right" is often times what being a leader is all about. I would love to see him live up to the hype and actually act like JFK for once, instead of pretending to be him.

 

I find this devilishly ironic as well: Does anybody want to lay odds on Europe, who once again wouldn't help us, now coming to us and asking for help? Of course we will help them, because how can we not? We know the meaning of friendship and we won't ever be a fair weather friend, unlike them.

real good post

[chicot]

Saddam did do whatever he wanted to the Kurds, while the civilized world watched. Millions have died in Africa, and the civilized folk washed their hands after the candlelight vigils. Russia is now avenging its embarrassment by the west because the civilized could no longer stand the butchering in the Balkans by the well meaning slavs & their tribemates.

 

Good to see you being consistent in standing up for the rights of the world's tyrants.

 

PS - you may want to send a note to BBC to check their sources. Russians were inside Georgia when I posted last.

 

? The issue in contention (which you raised in the first place) is not whether or not Russian troops were inside Georgia (they are) but whether or not they entered Gori (even the Georgians now admit they didn't).

Your original quote:

 

What's Dimitri's justification for entering Gori?

[finknottle]

Hell, the smart response was what Reagan/Charlie Wilson/and the CIA did: get them weapons(of course the dumb part was not finishing the job, but we did accomplish the original mission).

 

Don't leave Carter off of that list out of partisanship. It is an important lessen that even he - a certified peacenik and fool - knew that sometimes you have to man up in the face of aggression.

[/dev/null]

Don't leave Carter off of that list out of partisanship. It is an important lessen that even he - a certified peacenik and fool - knew that sometimes you have to man up in the face of aggression.

Yeah how'd that work out for Carter anyway?